The Term Enlightenment

[Cameron]

The term "enlightenment" is very stupid IMHO.

 

Who ever first came up with using the term enlightenment for spiritual development should be choked out..IMHO.

 

So far..the best terms for spiritual development are "opening" by Gangaji and "re-enlightenment" by Lama Dorje.

 

And of the 2 I prefer opening..because there is no end to it...you can open..and open..and open..and open..and open..and open..and open..forever..there is no end to depths of opening.

 

re-enlightenment..though definetly better than enlightenment..still sort of sounds like a closed end process...opening feels like an open ended process...

[Spectrum]

Bird Words Woody.

 

How about transformative transitions translated into terms?

 

Spectrum

[Cameron]

No I like opening better.

[Spectrum]

It doesn't mean the same thing. You can take drugs and "open" up.... but it is poor common vernacular to term this enlightenment. Opening your doors doesn't mean enlightenment. Use of the term lightly... is very poor form.

Edited October 28, 2007 by Spectrum

[Cameron]

I just disagree with you on so many levels..would be better if you stop posting on my threads.

 

Actually, you don't need to worry about it as I won't be posting for a month beginning tomorrow.

[林愛偉]

It doesn't mean the same thing. You can take drugs and "open" up.... but it is poor common vernacular to term this enlightenment. Opening your doors doesn't mean enlightenment. Use of the term lightly... is very poor form.

 

 

Re enlightenment is ...at first you were enligthened, then you screwed up, and so you have to do it all over again.. hahaha

 

Enlightenment, re-enlightenment... its all the same thing. One has to get the dirt out, drop views. There is no attaining anything. Seems like people are confusing things when it comes to enlightenment. They think they are getting something. There is only revealing the mind, and even the revealing is false.

Hence is our vocabulary, so people, cultivators best be creative and find a teacher who will not throw out new terms meaning the same old thing. Just raw, to the point descriptions are better than new words to describe.

 

So basically, this word 'enlightenment' doesn't mean anything at all. It is the original mind that is without defilements. We call this the enlightened mind for there is no ignorance present.

 

If there were to be a new word to mean enlightenment, it would be one who is purely wise, one without ignorance, free to come and go as they please, One Come Thus, the list can go on... hahaha

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

 

P.S.- if one is re-enlightened, that means they were enlightened before. Seems like the same concept of enlightenment. Maybe Shifu Max is only trying to change the views people have by using a play on words. A lot of teachers do that kind of thing.

[Cameron]

So your saying you think that re-enlightenment is a superior word than opening Lin?

 

If yes..I will force myself to like it but don't you agree "opening" is more open ended?

[Spectrum]

terms to agree or disagree. that's my point. learn to speak beyond words. duhhhheh

Edited October 28, 2007 by Spectrum

[林愛偉]

So your saying you think that re-enlightenment is a superior word than opening Lin?

 

If yes..I will force myself to like it but don't you agree "opening" is more open ended?

 

 

Neither are superior my brother. What I am saying is that the wording may be new, but what makes them seem astounding is our own mind. We hear something new, in a way which makes us think in manners for awakening and.. BOOM we got it! The wording was the tool, it was mundane, but our awakening was the end result...more astounding.

 

Opening indicates something was closed. It also indicates there is a closer and thus an opener. Where are they? The questions come back again to define define define, and thus the answers will be to put down, put down, put down.

 

Whatever term you feel works best to get you to awaken. I would tell my student to do something harmful in the idea it would awaken him, because its his conditions. And when he is stupid enough to do it, I will slap him off the head to make him realize how stupid he is for not questioning me, and to save him from doing the harmful thing. In the end, he is wiser... he might be awakened. Has happened..funny as hell.

 

The idea is to put the mind in contemplative mode, wonder wonder wonder, and then something snaps the mind out of the absorption of contemplation and we awaken.

So, if that wording fits for your mind, stay with it until you don't need to any longer. Only one thing, do not get too excited over the wording, for it is your mind that makes the wording mean something. Be excited that you have such a wonderful mind!

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

[sheng zhen]

Only one thing, do not get too excited over the wording, for it is your mind that makes the wording mean something. Be excited that you have such a wonderful mind!

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

 

 

 

I totally agree with Lin. Whenever we define enlightenment, the unlimited universe will show us it is so much more than our limited definition. But, at the same time, every definition we make is a part of the whole truth. Whatever way we define enlightenment will be a part of the truth. It is one perspective. This will only be a problem if we think we got the ONE and ONLY true point of view and we start to project this point of view on others.

[nightwatchdog]

Three Pounds

 

A monk asked Tozan when he was weighing some flax: `What is Buddha?'

 

Tozan said: `This flax weighs three pounds.'

[doc benway]

Since we all participate in a forum discussing the subject, it's certainly reasonable to discuss the words we use for the topic. If we weren't hung up on words we'd be practicing rather than reading and posting. My favorite this week is 'being'. Until recently I favored awakening but that implies that we're currently asleep and I don't really think that's quite right. How can we be asleep when we are aware of the "I-ness" all the time? We never really can get away from the "I am" feeling so we're not really asleep. The problem is that we simply have difficulty not identifying it with the body/mind.

Enlightenment implies a change from one mind set to another, re-enlightenment implies another change beyond the first, neither captures the essence for me... opening has a genuineness about it . I guess I like opening and being.

[minusmode]

I don't have a problem with the word it's self, it's just that holy of holies mystique it has aquired. If I recall correctly (like that ever happens!) the Buddha coined the phrase to describe the physical feeling he had when he experienced it. Since the thing I remember about when I first experienced it was the feeling of being 20 pounds lighter, I can relate. But in so many places if you use the E word it's like blasphemy or something because it has been put on such a high pedestal, people have it in their minds that ordinary people who don't devote half their lives to it's "attainment" can never hope to "attain" it. Sure some people do have to do that to experience it, but if that is the preconception to begin with, it might be a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Kind of like first time sex being so built up in a young man's mind that when it finally happens he's too nervous to get anything to work. Make anything too sacred and it becomes inaccessible. But I'm sure any word will have the potential preconceptions.

Edited October 30, 2007 by minusmode

[minkus]

When can i call myself enlightened ?

[sheng zhen]

When can i call myself enlightened ?

 

Whenever you call your "self" enlightened, the universe will show you are so much more than that

 

There are more than enough people in the world who call them selves enlightened prematurely. Why bother? Being enlightened dosent make you anymore important than not being enlightened. And if you think being enlightened makes you more important, it would be an indication that it isnt enlightenment.

[林愛偉]

Whenever you call your "self" enlightened, the universe will show you are so much more than that

 

There are more than enough people in the world who call them selves enlightened prematurely. Why bother? Being enlightened dosent make you anymore important than not being enlightened. And if you think being enlightened makes you more important, it would be an indication that it isnt enlightenment.

 

 

Enlightened, Not Enlightened... one still has to go to the bathroom just the same.

Only difference is less paper to use

 

Peace,

Lin

[minkus]

Less paper to use, enlightenment sounds very ecological ! and economical !

 

Sheng Zhen dont worry, im far from enlightend .. i try to do best for the people around and behave natural, hard enough allready

 

I was yust wondring when can a person call himself enlightend, so much has been said about enlightenment allready, someone must know ! I would go even further and dare to ask anyone here on this forum is enlightend ?

 

Kind regards, M.

[doc benway]

I would go even further and dare to ask anyone here on this forum is enlightend ?

 

Kind regards, M.

Back to the old problem - you need to define the term first - not easy to do. Perhaps we can figure it out by figuring out who is not enlightened. Kind of like finding who "I am" by figuring out who "I am" not.

Would an enlightened person spend their time reading and posting messages on the web?

Edited October 30, 2007 by xuesheng

[sheng zhen]

Enlightened, Not Enlightened... one still has to go to the bathroom just the same.

Only difference is less paper to use

 

Peace,

Lin

 

 

There is the Zen saying you all probably know: before enlightenment I chop wood and carry water. after enlightenment I chop wood and carry water.

 

But it is really good to know we will use less paper! That way we can contribute positively to the environment.

[minusmode]

Back to the old problem - you need to define the term first - not easy to do. Perhaps we can figure it out by figuring out who is not enlightened. Kind of like finding who "I am" by figuring out who "I am" not.

Would an enlightened person spend their time reading and posting messages on the web?

 

Absolutely not! That's far beneath an enlightened person. Enlightened people spend their time in constructive ways like smoking pot and watching re-runs of "southpark".

 

Actually though, enlightened people do everything everywhere at once all the time. So do You, but you won't realize

it till you are enlightened.

[林愛偉]

If one recognizes a profound change in themselves, that is fine, but never to say "Hey, I'm enlightened. Hi Everyone, I'm enlightened."

 

That's not good. There are so many people who say they are enlightened, but aren't. They sell themselves to the public, and cause people to remain confused. They are not really enlightened, and say they are. This causes people to be confused when a real enlightened person steps forward, and actually teaches something of value.

People are like that. False, False =True. True True = False. You give them the false and they think it to be true. Then you give them the truth, and they think it to be false.

 

If anyone on this board is enlightened, it is best to not tell anyone. For in truth, an enlightened being wouldn't say they are, wouldn't agree with anyone that they are. Because when all there is is pure and complete truth, who isn't enlightened? There is no need for distinction, so enlightenment doesn't even exist.

 

 

Peace,

Lin

Edited October 30, 2007 by 林愛偉

[xenolith]

When will a woman reply?

 

The subject topic exists not for them me thinks.

 

Would Love to think otherwise.

 

Female bums....?

[minusmode]

If one recognizes a profound change in themselves, that is fine, but never to say "Hey, I'm enlightened. Hi Everyone, I'm enlightened."

 

That's not good. There are so many people who say they are enlightened, but aren't. They sell themselves to the public, and cause people to remain confused. They are not really enlightened, and say they are. This causes people to be confused when a real enlightened person steps forward, and actually teaches something of value.

People are like that. False, False =True. True True = False. You give them the false and they think it to be true. Then you give them the truth, and they think it to be false.

 

If anyone on this board is enlightened, it is best to not tell anyone. For in truth, an enlightened being wouldn't say they are, wouldn't agree with anyone that they are. Because when all there is is pure and complete truth, who isn't enlightened? There is no need for distinction, so enlightenment doesn't even exist.

Peace,

Lin

What good is being enlightened if you can't lord it over people? (joke)

Seriously though, I don't understand how it got to be such a lofty title....or..lofty....whatever it is. Someone who's "enlightened" is someone who knows something. So what? Sure that something is a good thing to know, but how does knowing it make you superior to someone else? And even if it did make you superior, who would you (in reality) be superior to? Yourself. Hey look at me everyone! I'm superior to myself!

[林愛偉]

What good is being enlightened if you can't lord it over people? (joke)

Seriously though, I don't understand how it got to be such a lofty title....or..lofty....whatever it is. Someone who's "enlightened" is someone who knows something. So what? Sure that something is a good thing to know, but how does knowing it make you superior to someone else? And even if it did make you superior, who would you (in reality) be superior to? Yourself. Hey look at me everyone! I'm superior to myself!

 

 

haha

 

that's why no one should tell anyone they are enlightened. knowing and not knowing is just the same.

 

Peace,

Lin

[sean]

Lin, but what of the scenario where the only people saying they are enlightened are the unenlightened, while the enlightened keep quiet and deny it? Doesn't this also create confusion? Personally I think we at in an age where we need the real enlightened to please stand up. This tradition of not speaking of attainments had a place but now it's just a vow, perhaps even a refuge for false humility. I want to see truly enlightened beings step forward and say, ladies and gentlemen! Not only am I successfully bringing sexy back, I am also a fully realized being. And you sir, you over there with the pony tail teaching power yoga to those soccer moms, while I agree with what you just said about everyone being fully enlightened, in this realm you appear to be a very confused young man without the slightest recognition of your own divinity. Stop over-stretching and get back to your zafu!

 

Sean