The Term Enlightenment

[xenolith]

Because when all there is is pure and complete truth, who isn't enlightened?

Only those who haven't realized it yet. Thus the role of the Tathagata.

 

Peace.

 

xeno

[林愛偉]

Lin, but what of the scenario where the only people saying they are enlightened are the unenlightened, while the enlightened keep quiet and deny it? Doesn't this also create confusion? Personally I think we at in an age where we need the real enlightened to please stand up. This tradition of not speaking of attainments had a place but now it's just a vow, perhaps even a refuge for false humility. I want to see truly enlightened beings step forward and say, ladies and gentlemen! Not only am I successfully bringing sexy back, I am also a fully realized being. And you sir, you over there with the pony tail teaching power yoga to those soccer moms, while I agree with what you just said about everyone being fully enlightened, in this realm you appear to be a very confused young man without the slightest recognition of your own divinity. Stop over-stretching and get back to your zafu!

 

Sean

 

HAHA

 

If that were to happen, wouldn't you see more good talkers, and still the enlightened beings in the background?

Either way, there will be those who find a way to make themselves look the part. Those who are indeed enlightened do not say they are, but teach. Which is better. They themselves know something is up, they know there was once a different mind, and now they are awakened, and enlightened.

But telling people only makes them mark what enlightenment should be, and if others don't fit into it, then one can't be enlightened. Marking enlightenment is to divert people off the path. BUT marking it with its expressed characteristics of virtue, and moral...now that is a proper model of enlightenment.

 

Overall, I'm not saying for the real wise beings to sit aside and do nothing, just for the to not go around announcing to the world they are. Let other people give the title, let other people regard one as enlightened. When there are no others who are awakened, and or fakes running around lying about their wisdom in the world, then it is okay to say ...Hey I am this way, and that way...only for the sake of getting the attention to teach wholesome things. But in a world where the majority would utilize almost anything to make money, it is difficult to tell the straight out truth in words, and have everyone believe it.

 

Basically, just be the example. People will find out and spread the word.

 

 

Peace,

Lin

Edited October 31, 2007 by 林愛偉

[sheng zhen]

I want to see truly enlightened beings step forward and say, ladies and gentlemen! Not only am I successfully bringing sexy back, I am also a fully realized being.

 

 

That would be one great show!

 

Maby we could create a new reality concept?? We could put a lot enlightened masters together in a house and then let the public vote every week who they think is the most enlightened! Every week they get a 10 minute satsang in front of the camera where they have to convince the public about their own enlightenment. Maby they can get different weekly assignments like levitation, miracleworking, light emmitting. And the winner gets 1 million new followers.

 

But I think actually many people are stepping forward these days. Many are the real deal, and many are not. My teacher say it doesent matter. You can still learn something. In the end you can learn something valuble from anyone, anywhere. It dosent matter if it is an enlightened one or not. Enlightenment is just a wet dream of the ego. When we get there it is not at all a beatuiful white and cozy place. Truth dosent show mercy, it dosent adjust and it is not negotiable.

[rain]

When will a woman reply?

 

The subject topic exists not for them me thinks.

 

Would Love to think otherwise.

 

Female bums....?

------------

 

entering the room

removing boxing gloves.

Is that Xeno in the corner looking all nice and furry? (smelling danger).

 

"Taomeow!! Bring the shotguns!!"

 

"ehhhrm..getlemen, what was the question again?"

Edited October 31, 2007 by rain

[sean]

Enlightenment is just a wet dream of the ego. When we get there it is not at all a beatuiful white and cozy place. Truth dosent show mercy, it dosent adjust and it is not negotiable.

Perfect.

[Mantra68]

It is absurd to claim to be enlightened. As if there were a graduation from ignorance at any one point. The Tao is unknowable and it can't really be described in words, only experienced.

 

I believe we have enlightening moments or experiences and it is the cumulation of insights into understanding the self can after a period of time be viewed as...boy I sure do like drinking cool, fresh water. It tastes so good and feels good too. I like it in these dark blue bottles. For some reason they always make the water taste cooler than clear bottles. I wonder why that is. Maybe the blue filters out some kind of energy from entering through the bottle. Not sure, but man it is goooOOOooood.

 

Oh sorry, my A.D.D. kicked in. What was the hell was I saying?

 

Anyway, it doesn't matter. If you are here you're learning.

 

Don't trip on titles or levels of accomplishment because you will be humbled repeatedly.

Edited October 31, 2007 by Mantra68

[minkus]

Edited October 31, 2007 by minkus

[xenolith]

My dear friends, enlightenment exists...it is both a process and the result of that process.

 

Within the thing called Life, the process can take as long as that lifetime or as short as a few moments within it. For the vast majority something closer to the former is the case.

 

As far as I'm aware, while living, there's but one way to experience the result of enlightenment via the latter, instantaneous process. And a very lonely road indeed it is. A cosmic requirement me begins to think. How unfortunate. Oh well.

 

Be well upon your paths.

 

Peace.

 

xeno

[Pero]

If someone were enlightened he could say so or not. Whatever he would do would benefit all beings. Or actually, he would do what would benefit the most.

Edited October 31, 2007 by Pero

[Ian]

Enlightenment is now.

[rain]

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Edited April 17, 2008 by rain

[rex]

...are you enlightened ...?

The enlightened have more productive things to do then hang around internet forums.

[Pero]

The enlightened have more productive things to do then hang around internet forums.

 

How do you know?

[rex]

How do you know?

God told me.

 

Seriously though it was cheeky of me to impose my limited perspective on something I can't comprehend. Touche Pero!

Edited October 31, 2007 by rex

[minusmode]

Ladies and gentlemen, not only am i successfully bringing sexy back, but i am also fully full of crap. That being said..

 

"Overall, I'm not saying for the real wise beings to sit aside and do nothing, just for them to not go around announcing to the world they are. Let other people give the title, let other people regard one as enlightened."

 

I think this is good advice regarding anything to do with having wisdom or virtue. Enlightenment means many things to many people though. To some it might mean being able to heal the sick, walk on water and emanate light and blissful vibes all over the place. To me it means just being aware that separation is a lie. So to me, saying that i have experienced enlightenment is like saying that i have had a realization---and we all have realizations, so to me, i'm not really claiming any superiority.

But others who have the mighty venerable master definition of the word, to them i am claiming godlike status and

to be believed i should have to spend all my time bestowing wisdom and miracles...not posting opinions on the internet or watching TV or any other frivolous activity. Since the fact is that, for better or worse, i don't give a crap, i say what i like and let people think what they like. Pretense can hide in silence too. However i try to manipulate people's opinion about me, and for whatever reason i do it, it's the whole me thing and the more i'm into the me thing the further from enlightenment i get.

 

"It is absurd to claim to be enlightened. As if there were a graduation from ignorance at any one point. The Tao is unknowable and it can't really be described in words, only experienced."

 

This is true--which is the big reason for me why i will never say "i am enlightened". On a good day i can greatly weaken the experience of being a separate self to the point where i feel great relief, but my mind and it's thoughts about this "me" hallucination threatens that experience all the time because thought, like language, is based on the premise of separation being a reality and as long as my attention is focused on those thoughts, i am experiencing being a separate self.

If only there could be a graduation that would settle it once and for all, but i tend to think that the best i can hope for is that the more i return to that state of weakened sense of self (i call it minusmode, because i really don't know that it's full blown enlightenment--even by my less grandiose definition ) the easier it will get to return, over and over. If people ever started calling me an enlightened master, for any reason, i will try to make sure they all get to see a picture of me in leather bondage getting a spanking to put on their altars.

[rain]

Enlightenment is now.

 

wow! really?

 

no arrow? no future?

 

[doc benway]

Enlightened people spend their time in constructive ways like smoking pot and watching re-runs of "southpark".

 

It's not as funny as you think.... your comment I mean....

South Park's hysterical! We've got to nuke our imagination! Terrorists are loose in there!

[minusmode]

It's not as funny as you think.... your comment I mean....

South Park's hysterical! We've got to nuke our imagination! Terrorists are loose in there!

 

 

 

Um.....I'm a little confused. i wasn't knocking southpark, if that's what you mean. I agree that it's hysterical. Terrorists? huh?

[SFJane]

reading this thread reminds me of an observing an archery contest where the archers all have to shoot at the same target

 

some people miss

 

some people hit off center

 

some hit the outer rings

 

some hit the bull's eye

 

some split the arrows already in the bull's eye

 

the secret of enlightenment is that there is not just one.

 

there is no special order of experiences written in stone that works for all people

 

there is no one way absolutely that will work for all people

 

when I was young, I did not want enlightenment. it sounded like growing up.

 

I wanted power and I wanted to test it. To pursue power was to get attached to it and to truly and soulfully pursue that gaining and mastery of any energy I could to the exclusion of anything else. I knew intuitively, that if I chose enlightenment, I would become disinterested in and probably abandon my pursuit of power, permanently in all likelihood. I investigated makkyo and maya and ghosts and voices and different manifestations of chi in order to find truth in the universe. I broke a lot of rules and thou shall nots in spiritual and meditation training in order to see if I would get possessed or struck by lightening and spontaneously combust.

 

if you go looking for enlightenment, if you have any conception of it, you will either fail to experience it, misidentify it when it happens or deceive yourself that it has happened.

 

looking for enlightenment is kind of like looking for power in a way. I want to be maxed out spiritually. I want to be dialed in. I want to know. etc. it is another kind of attachment. trying to be enlightened.

 

If you are trying to become enlightened, and thinking there is only one Brass Ring, one Enlightenment with a capital E, you probably won't find it. You will end up frustrated and give up or become a fraud teaching spiritual babble.

 

Instead, open yourself up to experiencing the now. Be present and be honest. Watch for subtle changes and overt changes in your entire being.

 

Pick a torch, whether it is Kundulini, Shikentaza, Dissolving, Kunlun, Small Heavenly Orbit, and stick with it.

 

Run with it.

 

Blow on it.

 

Make it your own practice through volition and will.

 

 

When I finally realized my quest for fire was going to destroy me. I realized I had been meditating in reverse down a one way street.

 

Then I realized what I had done. I was in the sub integers now. Unlike most people starting off at zero trying to get to 9000, I was now effectively at -9000

 

doh!

 

So, I began again. This time instead of making all my occult and energy work one giant mixed practice, I stuck with inner dissolving to the exclusion of everything.

 

During that process I had awakenings and openings and realizations and apprehensions. Many of them. First one, then another....then another and on and on.

 

Over the years I have taken time out from further awakenings to fully process the ones that had gone by the previous year.

 

If you do this work with child like curiosity and sage like patience, there is no end to how many enlightenments anyone can achieve in one life time.

 

Ultimately sooner or later most people realize that in their quest to get certain things done, physically, mentally, emotionally, intellectually, energetically or spiritually, enlightenments, several of them have already happened to them subtly and quietly and completely without fuss or grandiosity.

 

Usually someone else confirms this through observation." Hey holy heck I have not seen you in years! I did not even recognize you! omg you look so calm and happy! Did you win the lotto or get pregnant?"

 

Nope, just been sitting around doing nothing.

Edited November 1, 2007 by SFJane

[fuego]

SFJane, your post touched me, and I felt I had to reply.

 

Most of my life, I had grown comfortable hating myself, always looking into something outside myself; not even for happiness, but for something to continue moving.

 

This changed a little over a year ago, when my journey through myself truly began, thanks to my close friend and teacher. I grew as a person - I grew the courage to face all the parts of myself I was dodging or hiding from. I learned to eventually accept who I am right now, with no reservations. I learned to take joy in walking outside, looking up into the night sky, and staring at the stars in wonder.

 

Quite honestly, I don't know what "enlightenment" means. I do know that I've learned to become happy with the journey I walk each day, in each moment, for I am right now. I've learned that I am perfect in my imperfections and flaws. I've learned that nobody gets out of life without scars, and that's a beautiful thing.

 

I've much further to walk, but I've learned to appreciate each step with acceptance, wonder, and even glee. Even stopping to breathe is still movement, and even moving slowly through some practices I love brings me stillness.

 

I don't care about becoming "enlightened," I don't care about being able to break bricks in half without touching them, and I don't care about learning powerful ancient forms, though they can be fun to move through.

 

I do care that I can help others if they ask, as helping others heal themselves also helps to heal myself. I do care about feeling that I am much larger than my body would suggest, that matter only matters to matter. I've thrown away my depression that has been my constant companion for most of my life, and I've gained myself. I'm deeply enjoying each step, and each moment of my journey now, and I find that's what is most important. The journey is what brings us happiness, not the destination.

Edited November 1, 2007 by fuego

[SFJane]

SFJane, your post touched me, and I felt I had to reply.

 

Most of my life, I had grown comfortable hating myself, always looking into something outside myself; not even for happiness, but for something to continue moving.

 

This changed a little over a year ago, when my journey through myself truly began, thanks to my close friend and teacher. I grew as a person - I grew the courage to face all the parts of myself I was dodging or hiding from. I learned to eventually accept who I am right now, with no reservations. I learned to take joy in walking outside, looking up into the night sky, and staring at the stars in wonder.

 

Quite honestly, I don't know what "enlightenment" means. I do know that I've learned to become happy with the journey I walk each day, in each moment, for I am right now. I've learned that I am perfect in my imperfections and flaws. I've learned that nobody gets out of life without scars, and that's a beautiful thing.

 

I've much further to walk, but I've learned to appreciate each step with acceptance, wonder, and even glee. Even stopping to breathe is still movement, and even moving slowly through some practices I love brings me stillness.

 

I don't care about becoming "enlightened," I don't care about being able to break bricks in half without touching them, and I don't care about learning powerful ancient forms, though they can be fun to move through.

 

I do care that I can help others if they ask, as helping others heal themselves also helps to heal myself. I do care about feeling that I am much larger than my body would suggest, that matter only matters to matter. I've thrown away my depression that has been my constant companion for most of my life, and I've gained myself. I'm deeply enjoying each step, and each moment of my journey now, and I find that's what is most important. The journey is what brings us happiness, not the destination.

 

 

Just wonderfully amazing. Fantastic. Well done.

 

You made me laugh and cry simultaneously this morning fuego

 

PM incoming

[mbanu]

Lin, but what of the scenario where the only people saying they are enlightened are the unenlightened, while the enlightened keep quiet and deny it? Doesn't this also create confusion? Personally I think we at in an age where we need the real enlightened to please stand up. This tradition of not speaking of attainments had a place but now it's just a vow, perhaps even a refuge for false humility. I want to see truly enlightened beings step forward and say, ladies and gentlemen! Not only am I successfully bringing sexy back, I am also a fully realized being. And you sir, you over there with the pony tail teaching power yoga to those soccer moms, while I agree with what you just said about everyone being fully enlightened, in this realm you appear to be a very confused young man without the slightest recognition of your own divinity. Stop over-stretching and get back to your zafu!

 

Sean

 

It's not modesty, it's confusion due to perspective. Like in the martial arts, a beginner will go around telling everyone that they know how to fight, while an advanced student will be far more reluctant to make this statement. This is because it means different things to the two, because of scope and scale. To the beginner, it means knowing how to punch a person in the face without hurting their hand. To a black belt, it means the ability to adapt to multiple attackers, a changing environment, many other far trickier things.

 

It's the same way that someone who is well off but spends their time working with millionaires will not consider themselves rich, although they may still be far richer than many other people.

 

Most of the people who say they are enlightened are beginners using the term in a different way. More advanced practitioners have a better understanding of what it actually means, and are therefor less confident, despite the fact that 1/2 to 3/4 enlightened is really the best skill level for teaching. The fully enlightened are terrible teachers because they have no attachment to their students.

[beancurdturtle]

The fully enlightened are terrible teachers because they have no attachment to their students.

And they have no attachment to the ego trip or the label of "enlightened" or "master."

 

I said it elsewhere... Anyone who claims to be a Master is fooling themselves. Anyone who believes the insistence of their disciples that they are a Master is fooled by their disciples.

 

Anyone so easily fooled, is not enlightened.

 

We hear something new, in a way which makes us think in manners for awakening and.. BOOM we got it! The wording was the tool, it was mundane, but our awakening was the end result...more astounding.

Hahaha! Perfect!

 

I love you dude!

 

BOOM

[三江源]

Lin, but what of the scenario where the only people saying they are enlightened are the unenlightened, while the enlightened keep quiet and deny it? Doesn't this also create confusion? Personally I think we at in an age where we need the real enlightened to please stand up. This tradition of not speaking of attainments had a place but now it's just a vow, perhaps even a refuge for false humility. I want to see truly enlightened beings step forward and say, ladies and gentlemen! Not only am I successfully bringing sexy back, I am also a fully realized being. And you sir, you over there with the pony tail teaching power yoga to those soccer moms, while I agree with what you just said about everyone being fully enlightened, in this realm you appear to be a very confused young man without the slightest recognition of your own divinity. Stop over-stretching and get back to your zafu!

 

Sean

 

 

it simply isnt possible, sean. it's like a fairy tale... the sheep is always a wolf, or a sheep. little red riding hood is somewhere else entirely.

[林愛偉]

No one can enlighten another. One who is enlightened does not wear it on their shoulder, chest, forehead. THey are humble, not saying, My way will make you enlightened in 40 days..haha They would never advertise.

 

What they may say is , 'Hey, I have a method that may lead you to enlightenment. It requires you to investigate your own mind, and decide what is and isn't permanent.'

They would give a method proper for the cultivator. When the cultivator reaches another level, the method changes.

 

Enlightenment is not from a method, it is from the mind alone. One doesn't need a method in order to become enlightened, but if one has not realized enlightenment, they need a method.. hahaha How funny it is.

 

When one has attained full, complete pure enlightenment, that means all worlds, they can go to, all realms they can see, travel, all beings of all directions can be conceived of and observed. If one has not attained complete pure enlightenment, that simply means they still have things to let go of. They can develop powers along the way, but they will not be the highest level.

 

It is said that those on level one do not know what level two looks like. And those on the second to highest level are ignorant to the highest level. It is only when they attain that state do they know.

 

It is better for us to get to meditating, cultivating, and realizing the result of proper practice.

 

Practice like you have the word 'Death' pasted onyour forehead.. it can come at any time,...until it does, cultivate.

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin