Tattoos

[dust]

So... it would seem that a large portion of Bums are not big on tattoos. Each to their own, of course. If everyone enjoyed tattoos as I do, it would come at the loss of the enjoyment of many other things in the world.
 
So my intention is not to try and coerce anyone to come to an appreciation of tattoos; I cannot be coerced into an appreciation of heavy metal, for example, or country music, and would not appreciate anyone trying.
 
But for anyone happy to watch or take part, here's a topic about tattoos. Say what you will.
 
To begin, as there is a general appreciation for Eastern art on TDB, I thought I'd share a little bit of history and some pieces by Chinese and Japanese artists in the Chinese/Japanese style.
 

_________________________________

 
 
China and Japan both have a long history of tattooing, of which nobody is entirely sure of the development. Certainly, as Marco Polo attested, tattoos were common amongst the Dai people in China (a tradition which continues to this day in Yunnan and Burma), where men and women alike were marked using "five needles joined together ... they prick the flesh till the blood comes, and then they rub in a certain black coloring stuff." And the women of the Ainu people, indigenous to Japan and Russia (and who now number only in the hundreds of thousands), apparently qualified for marriage only once their lip, hand, and arm tattoos, started at 12, had been completed by the age of 16.

Of the hundreds of tribes, and the cultures or subcultures that have existed between China and Japan over the last few thousand years, tattooing has been practiced by a few, and known to many. In the last few hundred years, however, in both China and Japan tattoos were more generally used as marks of punishment and therefore, like many other places in the world, associated with criminals. Minorities such as the Dai and Ainu were (and still are) just that: minorities.

So, at what point did that begin to change?

The Chinese author Shi Nai'an (施耐庵) is thought to have died in 1372. Though his existence, as with many other ancient figures, is disputed, it is certain that before this date, he or someone using this pseudonym wrote one of the Four Great Classical Novels of China, Water Margin 《水浒传》. Based loosely on real people and events, five of the main characters in this novel of brotherhood and courage are depicted with full-body tattoos. Lu Zhishen, for example, is nicknamed the "Flowery Monk", as his torso was adorned with flowers, and the handsome Yan Qing is described as having similar ornamentation.

 

 

Shi Jin as depicted by Utagawa Kuniyoshi (1798-1861)

 

Another prominent character is Shi Jin, a.k.a. "Nine Tattooed Dragons"（九纹龙). As described in the book, a master craftman "pricked his body with flowery embroidery; chest, shoulders, and arms, altogether nine dragons, and everyone in the county called him ‘Nine Tattooed Dragons Shi Jin’." (九纹龙史进 - it sounds a lot better in Chinese).

Anyway, as you might have guessed from its status as one of the "Four Great" novels of Chinese history, this story was hugely popular in China, and later became equally popular in Japan. Translations of Water Margin into Japanese (as Suikoden) date back to at least (and probably before) 1757. With the story's immediate success, demand for the type of tattoos seen in the woodblock illustrations of the translated novel became huge, and these Japanese woodblock artists started adapting their tools to be able to inject their designs into skin. This is where irezumi - Japanese tattooing as we know it today - began.
 
Irezumi and Suikoden, then, are irreversibly linked, as are modern Chinese and Japanese tattoo culture. Tattooing in China today wouldn't exist as it is without irezumi, and irezumi wouldn't exist without that ancient Chinese story of rebellion and heroism. I, for one, am glad for it all.
 

 

 

by Qiangzi, Qiangzi Tattoo, Beijing

 

 

 

by Shige, Yellow Blaze Tattoo, Yokohama

 

 

 

by ?, Prison Break Tattoo, Shanghai

 

 

 

by Joey Pang, Tattoo Temple, Hong Kong

Edited October 12, 2015 by dustybeijing

[AussieTrees]

Hi dustybeijing,

 

For many years had thoughts that I would get a tattoo.

Inner forearm,maybe a dagger with blood type incorporated,A+.

 

No coercion,felt this may save this life,if ever needing a blood transfusion.

 

Now happy to pass this life,when the time comes,now don't want any blood transfusion.

Never got that tattoo.

 

No heavy metal,nor country and western,prefer no music at all.Yeah still hear music but don't listen anymore.

[AussieTrees]

Our local indigenous people create scarring patterns which tend to leave keloid scars.

Often these scars denote a change from child to adult.

[Nungali]

WoW!  I am always impressed with modern tatts, the line color and the blending.  Then I look at my old faded ones  

 

 

I got a black flying raven on left arm  a  ' Jah '  on right.   A septagram with red descending triangle on center of chest.  To the left, a stylized  southern cross entwined with a thorny rose , to the right a red eagle ( as in 32 deg, Scottish rite )  , a 'shu feather of Ma'at '  on each inner forearm .  

 

Then I ran out of money  ....   

 

.... the canvass needs re-stretching     

[AussieTrees]

Whilst shopping at local supermarket

Met with and chatted to this very old lady,she asked me to get a product off an upper shelf.

This old lady had many tattoos all faded and wrinkled,no longer easy to make out what the images were.

Tattoos don't seem to shorten your life.

[Bud Jetsun]

Can a human use ink/paint/sculpting/jewels to improve a lotus flower bloom? 

 

Recognize all of nature, including bodies are already that lotus bloom.  One is always free to deface whatever one chooses, one may alternatively choose to recognize and appreciate what was already perfect. 

 

Even predating cultural interest in imposing fleeting human aesthetic interests into natures perfection, there were cultural interests in murder and control and domination of beings.  The fact something is old is no indicator of value, purpose, or ethics, however it's also not a non-indication. 

 

Unlimited Love,

-Bud

[dust]

Aussie:

I enjoyed reading your thought process. And I would be interested to know why you no longer listen to music -- perhaps a discussion for another topic though..

 

Nungali:

Sounds like a cool painting, even if the canvas has seen some wear. I love bird tattoos -- I have a pair of swallows (not a nautical thing..I just really love swallows) and plan on more birds.

 

As to your first sentence: yes, modern tattoo artists are able to be more precise than in previous decades, with cleaner lines etc. But eventually, these tattoos will fade and disperse too. That's just the way of things.

[dust]

Can a human use ink/paint/sculpting/jewels to improve a lotus flower bloom? 

 

I'm pretty sure that's a meaningless question. The point is not to "improve" anything. I'm not trying to look 'better' with tattoos, I simply enjoy having them.

 

 

Recognize all of nature, including bodies are already that lotus bloom.  One is always free to deface whatever one chooses, one may alternatively choose to recognize and appreciate what was already perfect. 

 

Again, you're saying a meaningless thing.

 

Was the Earth 'perfect' before it was 'defaced' with life? (And if so, should we destroy life?) Were things 'perfect' before humans came along and started 'defacing' nature with war and overpopulation? (And if so, should we destroy ourselves?) Is every human 'perfect'? Mentally, spiritually?

 

Perfection is a nonsense concept.

 

 

Even predating cultural interest in imposing fleeting human aesthetic interests into natures perfection, there were cultural interests in murder and control and domination of beings.

 

Mentioning murder and tattooing in the same sentence as if this connects them to each other. Don't you feel a little shame in this? We could just as easily say,

 

"Even predating cultural interest in spiritual practice, there were cultural interests in rape and pillage."

 

 

The fact something is old is no indicator of value, purpose, or ethics, however it's also not a non-indication.

 

I find history interesting; the history that we know of tattooing no less so. I have not claimed that tattooing is good because it has a long history.

Edited October 12, 2015 by dustybeijing

[AussieTrees]

Hi dustybeijing,

 

"Was the Earth 'perfect' before it was 'defaced' with life? (And if so, should we destroy life?) Were things 'perfect' before humans came along and started 'defacing' nature with war and overpopulation? (And if so, should we destroy ourselves?) Is every human 'perfect'? Mentally, spiritually?"

 

The earth is perfect,there no separation,we are nature,we are earth.

 

So to life on earth,there is no deface by naturally bringing life,same as when a seemingly dead tree sprouts to life in springtime.

 

Every human is perfect,especially to their mum.

 

We are the planet,we are still young as people,we are going through stages.

 

Stage one='Forming'

 

Which is still going on,and will never cease,from the beginning 14.5kg rock that started to attract even more stardust and over time the earth emerged,everything takes time.

 

Stage two='Sprouting to life'

 

How lucky are we?,

We are the awareness put forward by this earth.

 

The next stage may well see,who knows.

 

Maybe ,'The citizen of the World of the world'

 

To the future and beyond.

 

Music?

My choice to abstain.

[Taomeow]

On the subject of tattoos and music, this popped up in my head:

 

[AussieTrees]

Thankyou Taomeow,

 

And I watched it all,now I'm stoned,what other drugs do you have for us.

No enough of this foolery,straight back on the wagon.

I feel drowsy,I have to lie down,I'm an old man.

[Taomeow]

Thankyou Taomeow,

 

And I watched it all,now I'm stoned,what other drugs do you have for us.

No enough of this foolery,straight back on the wagon.

I feel drowsy,I have to lie down,I'm an old man.

 

The credit for getting you stoned goes to Tom Petty, ditto for "tattoo too" that gave me an idea of a great way to throw a tantrum: "Tattoo too!..  I want a tattoo too!..  Tattoooooo  toooooo!.."   

 

I can't have it.  I'm a tattoooist. 

[gendao]

And let's not forget Mozi, an interesting link between tattoos, philosophy, and neigong..

As "Mo" came to be the name of the Mohist school itself, it might have derived from the name of a criminal punishment (tattooing of the forehead of criminals; "mo" literally means "ink"), usually inflicted on slaves. It signals the Mohists' identification with the lowest of common people. The actual ancestral name and clan name of Mozi is not known. It may be that, because he was likely born into the lower classes, he did not have an ancestral or clan name.

 

[dust]

The earth is perfect,there no separation,we are nature,we are earth.

 

To me, the Earth is what the Earth is. No need to label it with 'perfect' or 'faulty' or 'good' or 'evil'.

 

The Earth doesn't think of itself as 'perfect'; it is the God of the Jews, Christians, and Muslims who does that. (He is a damaging and terrible god, and I try my best not to think like him.)

 

 

Every human is perfect,especially to their mum.

 

Hmm... I know a few who would disagree!

[Nungali]

Victorian people had a few tatts 

 

 

        

 

Edited October 13, 2015 by Nungali

[dust]

Yes. And in the Victorian era tattooing saw a particular rise in popularity among royalty and subsequently the upper classes.

 

Edward VII -- the son of Victoria herself -- was tattooed, as was George V, Kaiser Wilhelm II, Tsar Nicholas II, and Frederick IX of Denmark:

 

 

 

[dust]

I hear often that tattooing isn't part of Western culture. The media in particular would have us believe that tattooing was introduced to Europe by sailors returning from their exploration in the 'New World', and that it's been solely a sailors' thing ever since, until last week when that celebrity got a tattoo and now suddenly it's OK for 'normal' people to get them.
 
Actually, tattooing has been a part of Western civilization since Western civilization has been a thing -- it's just that there's not much written about it. Sailors did introduce new patterns and forms of tattooing from the 'New World' to Europe, as well as the word 'tattoo', and the Victorian era saw the rise leading to today's level of popularity, but it's not like nobody knew how to tattoo before that. For good or bad, as art or punishment, tattooing has existed continuously on every continent for the last few thousand years.
 
The idea that tattoos are new in popularity can be found in newspapers in every decade going back at least to the 1870s, including:

 

Tattooing is not uncommon

NY Times, 1893

Tattooing is on increase: habit not confined to seamen only

NY Times, 1908

Tattooing is rage in London society

Milwaukee Sentinel, 1933

Tattoos are no longer the trophies of rockers, sailors, bikers, bohemians and criminals, they have gone mainstream.

BBC, 2011

"Sure, tattoos are not confined to sailors, bikers or convicts. My point is that they never have been. And strictly speaking, when the media says tattoos were 'once associated with bikers and sailors', that's true - they have been associated, but by the media.

     "It is like same old, same old," says Lodder. "It is like, 'Wow tattooing is the new big thing, it used to be like this but now it is like this.'

     "But what I can't quite work out is why that is the case, and why these myths persist. My working hypothesis is simply that if people can't empathise with somebody who has a desire to mark their body then it comes as a surprise and they go, 'Wow, that's weird and strange and people are actually doing that."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-25330947

Edited October 14, 2015 by dustybeijing

[Golden Dragon Shining]

http://www.ancient-wisdom.com/chinacherchen.htm

http://www.ancient-wisdom.com/tattoos.htm

Edited October 17, 2015 by Sionnach

[Astral Monk]

Well in Islam its said a person with tatoo will receive a grievious punishment in the hereafter and certainly ne'r taste paradise. Wow a bit of ink on your skin equals cause for eternal damnation. Another reason religion is bonkers.

 

To each their own. I like a tatoo that has meaning, that tells a story, that reflects something of personal value to the bearer. I dont care for whole body art or sleeves etc but thats my pref just based on appearances.

 

Symbols dont have objective meaning. Theyre only contextual and transient, so you cant have a wring symbol because its value is only what you put into it.

 

8)

[Taomeow]

Not so, according to Jung (e.g.).  There's archetypal symbols all people in all cultures recognize, at least on the unconscious level, as direct references to reality, and respond to them accordingly with measurable physiological and complex psychological changes.  Snake-like images are invariably associates with "father" and cup or any vessel for holding liquids with "mother," water symbols like wavy lines with "sex," eye with "light, fire, sun," arrow with "direction of motion," swastica with "universal all-encompassing force" (good or bad depends on the conscious mind interpreting it based on who uses it, but the deeper "all-encompassing, universal force" meaning sits in the unconscious), and so on --

to say nothing of feng shui that knows everything about how our unconscious not only reads symbols whether we are consciously aware of it or not, but how they can actually shape our consciousness, and even our body, and even our destiny. 

 

We are born into a world of shapes.  They are meaningful because they express (and, to varying extents, contain and retain)  energies that are involved in creating and maintaining any given shape.  We can't not respond to them.  We can only believe that we can, but in reality, we can't.   With some brain disorders it becomes obvious -- e.g. a pattern of a series of stripes can trigger an epileptic seizure in some individuals; a pattern of color dots forming an image for someone with normal color vision is not discerned by someone who is color-blind (and may disqualify them from getting a driver's license); and even in perfectly normal individuals, the image of a trident causes an instant measurable spike of blood pressure and heart rate, regardless of what "conscious" interpretation their culture offers for this shape. 

 

I have been studying ancient symbols and their meanings across many cultures for a number of years, and have come to the conclusion that they are a universal interface between human perceptions and reality itself.  Whoever knows how to use this interface is a master of reality, and whoever does not, its uninformed recipient with no say in the matter. 

Edited October 17, 2015 by Taomeow

[Geof Nanto]

Somewhere previously Taomeow commented on how Western's sometimes choose traditional designs for tattoos without any knowledge of the cultural context or symbolism they are appropriating.

 

As well as possible esoteric ramifications, here's a story of what can be the overt consequences of such insensitive appropriation....... 

 

 

Australian couple mobbed in India over Hindu deity leg tattoo

 

An Australian couple have defended their right of expression after they were mobbed, harassed and unlawfully detained in India over the man's tattoo of a Hindu deity.

 

Melbourne law student Matthew Gordon was at a restaurant in the southern city of Bangalore with his girlfriend on Saturday when around a dozen activists from the ruling Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party began harassing the couple.

 

They said a tattoo of the Hindu fertility goddess Yellama on his shin offended their religious sentiments, and ordered him to remove it.

 

"One of them came to me and confronted me about my tattoo. Soon they surrounded us and threatened to skin my leg and remove the tattoo," Mr Gordon told Indian media on Sunday.

 

It was reported the group quickly grew to over 25 men who blocked them from exiting the restaurant.

 

 

 

PHOTO: Leg tattoo of Hindu Goddess Yellamma. Matthew Gordon said he respects Hinduism "completely" which is why he got the Hindu Goddess Yellamma tattooed on his leg. 

 

 

(from http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-10-20/australian-couple-mobbed-in-india-over-hindu-deity-tattoo/6867722 )

Edited October 19, 2015 by Yueya

[Taomeow]

 

Somewhere previously Taomeow commented on how Western's sometimes choose traditional designs for tattoos without any knowledge of the cultural context or symbolism they are appropriating.

 

As well as possible esoteric ramifications, here's a story of what can be the overt consequences of such insensitive appropriation....... 

 

 

Australian couple mobbed in India over Hindu deity leg tattoo

 

An Australian couple have defended their right of expression after they were mobbed, harassed and unlawfully detained in India over the man's tattoo of a Hindu deity.

 

Melbourne law student Matthew Gordon was at a restaurant in the southern city of Bangalore with his girlfriend on Saturday when around a dozen activists from the ruling Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party began harassing the couple.

 

They said a tattoo of the Hindu fertility goddess Yellama on his shin offended their religious sentiments, and ordered him to remove it.

 

"One of them came to me and confronted me about my tattoo. Soon they surrounded us and threatened to skin my leg and remove the tattoo," Mr Gordon told Indian media on Sunday.

 

It was reported the group quickly grew to over 25 men who blocked them from exiting the restaurant.

 

 

 

PHOTO: Leg tattoo of Hindu Goddess Yellamma. Matthew Gordon said he respects Hinduism "completely" which is why he got the Hindu Goddess Yellamma tattooed on his leg. 

 

 

(from http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-10-20/australian-couple-mobbed-in-india-over-hindu-deity-tattoo/6867722 )

 

Ha!  I can easily imagine a mob of fundamentalist Christians reacting to a bikini bottom that leaves open most of the butt with the image of Jesus Christ tattooed onto it.  

 

Moslems and Jews couldn't care less though, since it's impossible to tattoo their deities or otherwise depict them to begin with.  Taoists -- well, taoists don't tattoo.        

[Astral Monk]

 

Somewhere previously Taomeow commented on how Western's sometimes choose traditional designs for tattoos without any knowledge of the cultural context or symbolism they are appropriating.

 

As well as possible esoteric ramifications, here's a story of what can be the overt consequences of such insensitive appropriation.......

 

 

Australian couple mobbed in India over Hindu deity leg tattoo

 

 

This is just another example of why religion is nonsense and why people buoyed by it are stupid--putting more value on an ultimately empty symbol than human beings.

 

Again, no symbol has objective meaning. They cannot, its impossible, due to the nature of symbols themselves--which is an arbirtrary or non-necessary association of a figure with a concept, which is itself only an approximate grasp of a compressed series of impressions.

 

8)

[Taomeow]

OK, what has "objective meaning?"

What's the objective meaning of the middle finger?..

Of a smile?

Of a frown?

Of the flag of a nation?

Of the flag of a nation being burned?

 

Here's some Shakespeare for an example of an exchange of symbols having meaning for all parties involved:

 

SAMPSON
Let us take the law of our sides; let them begin.

 

GREGORY
I will frown as I pass by, and let them take it as
they list.

 

SAMPSON
Nay, as they dare. I will bite my thumb at them;
which is a disgrace to them, if they bear it.

 

Enter ABRAHAM and BALTHASAR

ABRAHAM
Do you bite your thumb at us, sir?

 

SAMPSON
I do bite my thumb, sir.

 

ABRAHAM
Do you bite your thumb at us, sir?

 

SAMPSON
[Aside to GREGORY] Is the law of our side, if I say
ay?

 

GREGORY
No.

 

SAMPSON
No, sir, I do not bite my thumb at you, sir, but I
bite my thumb, sir.

[Astral Monk]

As a thought...I dont have an argument against Jung, but I wouldnt use him as the basis of an argument either.

 

I can acknowledge that shapes can and do contain 'power' but that this is purely geometric in terms of the directing of lines of force.  Hence a triangle can be very strong, angles can be unsettling, etc.

 

The question is is a human baby automatically afraid of a snake?  Or do they have to have this fear conditioned into them?  Babies don't automatically create language.  This is also conditioning.

 

We, as a race, live in a symbol rich environment, in which many symbols have common origins and have been preserved or kicked about constantly wherever language and writing exist.  But aside from geometry, there is no instrinsic meaning in any of them.  That's what makes them symbols--they are figures we choose to represent something else.

 

8)