What is the best martial arts?

[GrandTrinity]

My friend says Wing Chun. I dont know anything about martial arts, but I know South Korea and TaoKwonDoe is pretty awesome. Gotta love the south Korean flag. I am thoroughly enjoying this here dvd pictured below and I just purchased the TaoKwonDoe into dvd by the same dude. What do yall think?

 

 

[thelerner]

I took Shotokan Karate for few years, Taekwondo for a few years, and Aikido for 13 years. I find the teacher is more important then the particular martial art. Don't have preconceived notions.

 

Take a look at the martial art schools closest to your house. See several classes of each one, try to see beginner and advance classes. Don't be overly impressed by flash, hype or high kicks. Long term contracts are also a bad sign. Are the senior students talented and sincere?

 

 

Peace

 

Michael

[Tenguzake]

Best martial art for what? Survival in a street fight? Success in some sort of competition? As a vehicle for self development/spiritual growth? Figure out what you want out of practice and find an art that will lead you to your goal. Be aware of the teacher that claims to be able to do it all.

 

I personally think that systems where you see teachers continue to train into their 60s 70s 80s etc. have more value than those in which a practitioner is done by the time they hit 40 because of all the damage they have done to their bodies.

 

Long term contracts are also a bad sign.

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As someone who has run a commercial martial arts school I disagree. People in the US tend to have a microwave oven/ remote control mentality and want immediate gratification. They hop into an art and then just as quickly hop out looking for the next trendy thing. Knowing that they are on the hook for some cash helps keep them motivated. Also, instructors that are worth their salt spend as much time and almost as much money on their training as do doctors and lawyers and except for a very few are not rewarded financially nearly so well. A long term contract reduces their financial risk and allows them to teach the students that do get off their butts and show up.

 

Most schools will offer a free class or two to prospective students. Check out several schools by taking advantage of this. If this isn't enough time to fully evaluate a school tell the instructor you want to train for a month before making a decision to sign a long term contract. To compensate him for his time you need to offer to pay a 1 month rate that is higher than what you would pay under the contract. Most instructors won't have a problem with this.

 

My 2 cents.

 

Tenguzake

[RON JEREMY]

I LIKE MUAY THAI, IF YA VE GOT DA HUEVOS FOR THAT.

 

SURE IF YA WANT TO DO MEDDITATION, YA GOTTA CUMPLEMMENT DA SPORT SIDE WITH DA MEDDITATION SIDE. BUT YA CAN DO THAT WITH JUST ABOUT *ANY* SPORT. JUST MEDDITTATE ON DA MERRIDIANS INVOLVED ET VOILA' YA CAN TURN GOLF INTO MEDDITATION.

 

BUT AS FAR AS DA *REAL* SHIT, YA CAN HARDLY BEAT THAI BOXE.

 

ADD TO THAT SOME JUDO N YA CAN FACE JUST ABOUT ANNYTHANG EXCEPT MINE SALAMI.

 

 

JUST MY TAKE

 

RJ

[RedKooga]

Ninjutsu is the real ultimate power

[DustWalker]

Weird we got a bunch of Dao Loonies here but no-one mentions the daoist internal fighting arts!!

 

Okay Taijiquan may not be the best shot since it usuallly requires around 10 years of diligent study before one is able to utilise the martial appications of the art, but Baguaquan sure seems quite useful for fighting even after a short time of practice.

 

The chinese martial-art styles of Xingyi Quan and Bagua Quan are reputed to have produced some of the most fearful and undefeated fighters in Beijing during the last hundred years. Bagua was the fighting-art of choice when it came to the imperial guards to proctect the emperor and his people. These where the martial-arts said to be favoured on both sides during the turmoil and city-fighting during the cultural revolution.

 

Maybe not the "best" martial arts out there, but for spiritual taoist freaks like a lot of people on this board, I'd certainly give the main big three chinese neijia arts a serious consideration!

[peter falk]

if you live in the tao, you don't need a martial art

[sean]

http://www.circularstrengthmag.com/33/jones.html

[Tenguzake]

http://www.circularstrengthmag.com/33/jones.html

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Overall a good article.

 

A couple of comments though. Technique is where beginners relearn how to move naturally. It must be transcended over the course of time for a person to be an effective fighter, but it is a step that can't be skipped. How many people do you see on the street that move perfectly naturally? I see damn few. Natural movement and behavioral flexibility is what allows a person to respond appropriately to a chaotic situation.

 

As to the no match was ever won with dim mak, etc. comment: No sport match was won with an eye gouge, punch to the trachea, by one opponent grabbing the others balls and ripping them from his body, or with a knife, a stick, tear gas, a gun, etc. There are things that are not appropriate in a sporting contest for legal and ethcal reasons that are perfectly acceptable in a street fight or in real combat where you are fighting for your survival. The two can not be rationally equated. You will fight in a real situation the way you fight in training or in a sparring match. If you train avoiding these responses that I mention, then are potentially limiting your ability to deal with real danger if it ever occurs. This is what I alluded to in my earlier post asking the reason for wanting to train in the martial arts. If you want to be a sport fighter fine. If you want to know how to protect your self and your family fine. Don't confuse the two and beware instructors that say the two are the same.

 

Caveat emptor.

 

Tenguzake

[spyrelx]

The chinese martial-art styles of Xingyi Quan and Bagua Quan are reputed to have produced some of the most fearful and undefeated fighters in Beijing during the last hundred years. Bagua was the fighting-art of choice when it came to the imperial guards to proctect the emperor and his people. These where the martial-arts said to be favoured on both sides during the turmoil and city-fighting during the cultural revolution.

 

 

Can you elaborate a bit on the differences between taiji, xingyi and bagua?

 

Thanks.

[Cameron]

I have done Aikido for several years. In many ways I think Aikido is one of the best martial arts to use on the street because at a high level you can simply avoid an agressors strike without messing with your own karma by doing damage to them. This is where I think Ueshiba had a spiritual realization what good is it to defend yourself if you cripple and destroy another human being?

 

That being said I think shows like pride fighting and UFC have showed that their is effective street fighting and effective sport fighting. A high rank BJJ or top wrestler would probably school someone doing Aikido in a sport combat situationb because they train for that reapetedly. Also, one thing I noticed different between sport fighting types and Aikido is intent.

 

Alot of these boxing/BJJ types basically walk around with the intent to fight. If you at all interestes in spiritual development this is sort of taking a big step backwards. As they say in sociology if you habg with idiots you become an idiot if you hang with intelligent people you tend to get smarter.

 

I also am interested in Bagua Zhang and Shing Yi Quan and have recently found a teacher. I will let you know if it is better than my experience with Aikido and BJJ.

[DustWalker]

Can you elaborate a bit on the differences between taiji, xingyi and bagua? 

 

Thanks.

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Well I'm nowhere near an expert on the subject but here's what first comes to mind when thinking of the differenences of these arts.

 

Xingyi is supposed to be the "hardest" of the internal arts. Mostly based on "yang" energy (whatever that means ). Linear techniques moving quickly forward and a lot of hand - foot coordinaton in order to generate hole body power. Developed originally by a famous chinese warlord for use in battlefields. based on 5 elements theory in most styles.

 

Bagua basically generates its power mostly from the waist. And might be be somewhere in between taiji and xingyi in when it comes to "hardness" although depending on style and so forth it all depends. E.g. Yin Style Bagua as taught by the late Dr. Xie Peiqi contains 8 complete animal systems, (one for each trigram) within the system as a whole, all ranging from hard to soft. Then bagua has the famous circlewalking that the supposed founder of the art, Dong Haichuan according to legend learned from daoist monks of the complete reality school somewhere in the mountains. This circlewalking meditation was adapted, and the I Ching principles was brought in to form the "philosophical shell" that was Dong Haichuan's Bagua. This shell was furthermore "wrapped" around his students previous martial skills in order to give them a harmonic and holistic approach to fighting. Thus the reason why a lot of bagua looks different, beacuse Dong Haichuan originally taught bagua different to different students according to their personal needs and background skills. Not as a fixed system but as a set of principles.

 

Although I don't agree 100% on everything he says, here's an article by Zhang Yun called Sorting out Taiji, Bagua & Xingyi that might give a slight idea about the differences between these arts.

 

It's getting late and I'm sure someone else can fill in something more about the differences here especially what characterizes taichi in the light of these other arts..

 

Hope this helps..

[sean]

I'll probably be working up the nerve to sign up for classes at this great local BJJ academy soon: http://www.opendoorbjj.com/ ...

[GrandTrinity]

if you live in the tao, you don't need a martial art 

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This is soooooo true. I could just master Mantak Chia's Tai Chi Chi Kung 1, fuckit, learn the principles behind chi kung and practice proper rooting--how to transfer the earth force...nobody can fuck with you, maybe add a little bagua on top, just for fun (walking in circles is fun, no?) and you are good. Im going to forget all this kung Fu unless it helps me align cosmic forces....hmmm....maybe I will invest in this video...

Cosmic Tour Ba-Gua (VHS) Newly Released

By Master Hua-Ching Ni

 

"Cosmic Tour Ba-Gua has healing powers similar to Tai Chi, but the energy flow is quite different. Ba-Gua consists of a special kind of walking which corrects the imbalance and disorder of "having a head heavier than the rest of the body." Walking in a large circle over an open ground with the image of a flying bird or a swimming fish, Cosmic Tour reduces the congestion of our modern, intellectual lives and brings the energy down to the feet in order to improve circulation."

 

 

http://www.taoofwellness.com/Merchant2/mer...duct_Code=VCOSM

 

Sounds cool. I best go to a live instructor and learn Bagua tho, right? That would be a good idea. This sifu I know seems to be pretty good, too. He studied Liu Seong Kung Fu from a Grandmaster Reeders? Half Dutch/Chinese royalty... should be fun, also does the Northern Wu style... I wonder if I should bother with that Cosmic Tour Ba-Gua or just go straight to this live teacher.

[OpenSecret2012]

My friend says Wing Chun.

Wing Chun is what Bruce Lee's teacher taught him. Lee further built up on it.. You're better off learning Jeet Kune Do, think of it as an updated form of Wing Chun.

 

I dont know anything about martial arts,

Then I suggest you think about what others posted above. What IS the reason you want to learn martial arts? To be able to defend your family and yourself? To be in shape? To be flexible? To start fights? To simply see what its like?

 

but I know South Korea and TaoKwonDoe is pretty awesome. Gotta love the south Korean flag.

I've fought S. Koreans who did Tae Kwon Do, and IMHO Tae Kwon Do is garbage. Of course, I'm in shape so that helped. They strike me and nothing happens, because my mind is strong enough that I don't feel the pain. I'm not disabled by any pain, or from getting hurt.

I visit NYC regularly, and sometimes hang out in Asian (Koreatown and Chinatown) neighbourhoods. I don't know if you've been to Asia, or know anyone who has. But in Asia if and whenever they see an American, they try acting super-macho-Asian-guy, especially if it's an American with an Asian woman. In America, they many times act the same way - trying to start fights with Americans just to see how good their martial arts are.

I, and other American friends, have witnessed other Americans (not doing any Martial Arts. Just regular "bare knuckles style" boxing/street fighting) knock the sh--t out of Koreans doing Tae Kwon Do... in 1-5 seconds laying Korean guys on the sidewalk. With the only thing left to do is deciding if they should make the final kill strike, or... walk away.

Sonny Barger, the guy who founded the Hell's Angels, wrote in his book how he, and other Hells Angel's guys would in 1-2 hits crush anyone and everyone who tried doing martial arts on them. Tear their jaw off, dislocate their jaw, cave in their cheek bone, knock in their entire top and bottom front rows of teeth, punch with the intent to kill. Sonny and the rest of the Hells Angels didn't know, or do any Martial Arts. They fought and struck with the intention to disable/kill first before being killed or disabled.

 

I am thoroughly enjoying this here dvd pictured below and I just purchased the TaoKwonDoe into dvd by the same dude. What do yall think?

 

 

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All I see is a picture of an Asian guy showing off how streched his groin tendons are. You don't need to learn martial arts for that LOL! Track and Field runners, ballerinas, figure skaters, etc.... can do that same pose as him.

 

As someone else posted already, if all you want is to strengthen your mind, make your mind stronger, meditate, you don't need to learn how to kill. Just learn meditation directly. Pick up any other recreational sport to stay in shape (weightlifting, running, jogging, bicycling, swimming, etc...) And keep reading this site!

 

 

IF you want a martial art that's 100% about killing someone else before they kill you, then Krav Maga is where its at. They don't pretend that martial arts isn't about maiming, killing, disableing:

 

- Krav Maga

Most Lethal Martial Art for modern times

Most Krav Maga also teach how to instantly disable someone who assults you with a firearm also.

 

After that learn the martial art of Grappling:

 

 

- Grappling

Grappling Techniques

 

With these two arts, you'll be able to deal with modern dangers.

None of this "first assume your Kung Fu Master video game fighting position. Then start the fight."

 

It's about how to turn a sitiuation around after you first get jumped. After you first get injured. When your outnumbered. Further strengthing your mind to the point until pain never freezes you into indicision. In real life fighting you have 1-10 seconds to kill or be killed. To disable the enemy and put him/her at your mercy... or be disabled. 1-10 seconds to do 1-3 moves which decide the outcome. There are no 30 min long Hollywood style martial arts fights LOL!

 

I can't recommend any Krav Maga schools, or Grappling schools, since I've never attended one. I've learned just a few moves from friends who're instructors, and high level students in Krav Maga, and Grappling. I've practiced them to near perfection. Been in a few fights, even after I first walk away. I've never been put at anyone else's mercy.

 

Last thing, I don't know what country you live in, but in America you can get arrested, and be imprisioned - even if you DEFEND yourself! So if you do learn martial arts, also -> look up a good defense lawyer, <- or two or three...and keep their card on you. Memorize their office number.

 

When/IF you get confronted, try as hard as possible to not let it escalate into having to use martial arts. Try to walk away, run away. Forget about macho ego. You don't want to end up killing some stupid fool, and risk ruining your life - IF you can avoid it.

 

Never ever say anything. Just act. Walk away, run away, or strike first, or just silently wait for them to try striking first.

If walking away, running away isn't an option, make a mental grid of their body, and the best points to strike them. Then strike with intent to kill. Never, ever, underestimate your opponet. Better to over estimate them, and treat them as if they will kill you if you don't kill them.

You can also decide to let them make the first move, first strike, and take them out that way. It's up to each martial artist which technique in what situation to use - striking first, or letting the enemy strike first.

 

After you do disable and/or kill your opponet, calmly leave the scene!. Don't say anything. Just go. If weeks later the police somehow find you, simply say you left to get medical treatment, or to see your lawyer, or you were dazed and confused, etc... you're lawyer can help you get over this hurdle.

[IanB]

[GrandTrinity]

Thank you 2012. That is some good advice, why didnt I think of this before? The Israeli defense skills--Krav Maga! Through in a little grappling and I'm good to go!

 

So what is the best way to make your opponent toast? Rip his eyeball out?

[GrandTrinity]

Thank you very much IanB, this seems to be very good advice. So your saying forget the 108 forms. Do the bagua, do the push hands, applications and standing, structure, structure, structure in-between everything you learn. Master, a short form. Very interesting. I gotta go to a teacher and do push hands and bagua. I think I will master Chia's 13 form and tai chi 2. This sounds like a smart plan? Or should I mess with a 108 northern wu form?

[rex]

Edited April 23, 2007 by rex

[VCraigP]

Tae Kwon Do practitioner since 1980

Judo for a few months at age 8

Studied Chi Kung w/ M.Chia then M.Winn since 1986 (approx).

 

In about 1995 I started seriously training with a man who studied chen style TaiChi and who was also teaching Bagua and Hsing I. Over the course of two years or so my whole fighting style changed. I became more connected to the earth, and began to really understand what it means to move with the whole body connected. TKD feels brittle and broken into peices by comparison. Tremendously more powerful through structure training.

 

I love TaeKwonDo - as a game. It's fun. But to do it and hold your structure and not excessively overextend is a whole different animal. Hard to continue to train with regular External TKD stylists. But sometimes fun to use internal style tricks in sparring.

 

Eventually it comes down to what you want out of it. TKD is a fun sport, but I consider it elementary school when it comes to sophistication.

Chen Style Tai Chi would be in this methaphor PHD work, which takes decades.

 

But , whoo boy, real Chen stylists have juice like you wouldn't believe!!

 

Craig

 

 

 

 

 

Weird we got a bunch of Dao Loonies here but no-one mentions the daoist internal fighting arts!! 

 

Okay Taijiquan may not be the best shot since it usuallly requires around 10 years of diligent study before one is able to utilise the martial appications of the art, but Baguaquan sure seems quite useful for fighting even after a short time of practice.

 

The chinese martial-art styles of Xingyi Quan and Bagua Quan are reputed to have produced some of the most fearful and undefeated fighters in Beijing during the last hundred years. Bagua was the fighting-art of choice when it came to the imperial guards to proctect the emperor and his people. These where the martial-arts said to be favoured on both sides during the turmoil and city-fighting during the cultural revolution.

 

Maybe not the "best" martial arts out there, but for spiritual taoist freaks like a lot of people on this board, I'd certainly give the main big three chinese neijia arts a serious consideration! 

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[Cameron]

I begun training Baguazhang and Shing Yi(Hsing I) this week. just a rank beginner in it. Though I did see some similarities between Bagua and Aikido . Both Baugua and Hsing I look very sophisticated. Hsing I is very different from what I have done in the past because it attacks. Very Yang and agressive internal art. Bagua moves in circles around an oppnonent and spirals in.

 

My teacher is one of 7 disciples of the late Grand master of the art, Kenny Gong, who taught in NYC sor like 30 years. It looks like it will take me a long time, if ever, to get real good at it but I think it is what I have been looking for as far as martial arts go.

 

But does that mean it is more effective than BJJ? No. I think if your goal is just to elarn to do some damage and self defence quickly go take a few months of BJJ. You'll learn how to snap peoples elbown, necks, slams, etc in the first few classes.

 

The internal arts are a slow discipline, but after 10 years or something you can just take someone out by touching them..supposedly..

[sean]

This following two articles clarified a lot of things for me regarding "hard" vs. "soft" debates:

 

http://www.circularstrengthmag.com/21/sonnon2.html (I know I keep posting

http://www.circularstrengthmag.com/21/sonnon5.html

 

Excerpt from the latter article (emphasis my own):

"What has been the greatest success of Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, for instance? What has it brought to the table that very few in this country concentrated upon? Was it superior techniques? Why all of a sudden do so many people concentrating upon wrestling as a martial art? What has never been discarded by wrestling styles (such as Sambo, BJJ, Judo and Catch-as-Catch Can)?

 

Flow-oriented drills."

(I know I keep linking to Sonnon related articles, but they really help make things click for me.)

 

The reason why I want to start with BJJ is because it's full body, I believe it will help me develop the level of proprioception I am interested in, and it will give me immediate feedback on my effectiveness. I think there is a danger in practicing only "soft" martial arts in that because full resistance sparring is frequently kept to a minimum, you can become overconfident in your abilities and .. well, get your ass kicked in a real situation basically.

 

Fortunately the BJJ school I found and am thinking of attending has an excellent philosophy:

"... our main goal is for every person in our academy to have fun and get an excellent workout while learning proper form and technique at the same time.

...

No prejudice, politics, or hyper-aggressiveness is allowed on the mat. Sparring is encouraged, but not to the point of injury: after all, martial arts are about respecting your body."

And I found an excellent Internal CMA academy close to me that also appears to have it's head screwed on right.

 

I'll probably end up taking a few classes there as well if I find myself really drawn to round out the "martial" side of my training. But frankly I'll probably end up transitioning into dance ... particular "break" ... I've always wanted to pull off a windmill actually.

 

Sean.

 

PS: Check this out: http://putfile.com/media.php?n=wushu

[Cameron]

I agree sean. While I love the intenral arts, sparring is usually kept to a minimum. I think it is the nature of the art though, You can't really spar with Tai chi or Aikido it would be to severe. then again maybe that is BS.

 

While in BJJ I "sparred" my first night on the mat .It's pretty exhilerating to be able to use technique freely without any set coreographed form aas designed by "Sensei or Sifu".

 

The only thinng I found frustrating with BJJ was you can find yourself on your back with your opponent on top of you for a long time. In some instances you can be laying there for 5 or 10 minutes while you and your opponent look to gain a position. But as soon as one of you gets some leverage, finds an opneing it's all over in seconds.

 

One of my first experiences getting "tapped out" in BJJ I was messing around with a guy who was pretty good. I made the mistake of extending my arm out towards his face which is I think a pretty popular thing to do in Aikido and Hsing I. He immendietly grabbed my arm and dropped to his back, swung his legs over my head and neck and put a Triangle choke on me faster than I could realize what was happaning.

 

I also really liked the work we did with takedowns. Sometimes jsut wrestling contunuously until one of us was able to take down the other. Learning take down defense and how to quickly take down an agressor so you can quickly throw a submission on them is very useful if your ever in a fight.

 

But you need serious cardio in BJJ. My Internal arts class is pretty laid back and at no point do you feel you are "working out". BJJ is one of the emanest workouts. Trying to mauver around a 200 lb guy on top of you takes alot of eenrgy. Though my BJJ teacher who is a world champion makes it look effortless.

 

Maybe I'll get back in there and start rolling again.

 

I wish I had time to do them all but as Steve Maxwell told me pick one art and master it or many arts and be average.

[GrandTrinity]

What do yall think of this as an intro to bagua?

http://www.plumpub.com/sales/bagua/vd-BGartofDoub.htm

[IanB]