Understanding Te as the root of compassion - more essential than tao?

[scribe]

I've struggled to find a definition of te that has clicked with me. Everyone talks about tao this and that, but te has always seemed the underdog despite appearing in the title of the book. Many more people ask what the tao is than what te is. 'Virtue' is often given as an answer, but I've never been sure what that means. I have generally considered it a 'measure' of following the way - some kind of 'output' - but again, that never felt very satisfactory.

 

Recently I've been provided an opportunity to really consider how to grow a company team. A lot of the discussion has been around nurturing them and allowing them to grow, rather than being hierarchical, heavy-handed, or 'managerial'. From this, something has clicked.

 

Re-reading the Tao Te Ching, I've been struck by three realisations, and am interested in others thoughts.

 

First, the text made much more 'sense' once I began reading te as 'love' - although this is a dangerous word in English. I'm now reading te as the _source_ of love, the raw essence that gives rise to love, compassion, kindness, empathy - *connection*. All

 

All of a sudden, this opens up the second realization - that te does not _appear from_ tao, but is _complementary_ to it. The title makes sense: tao and te are two essential sides of the same coin. Tao creates without owning and destroys without care. Te, through connecting, sustains the creations and nurtures their growth. To reflect back on the opening if the I Ching, tao is pure heaven/yang, while te is pure earth/yin. Only together can anything survive.

 

The third realization is that our own relationship with life is much closet to te than to tao. we are created beings, and our opportunities to connect are far more numerous than our opportunities to create something truly new. Innovation and fashions are tao movements - we are always seeking the Next Big Thing. But we lust for social connections, for a feeling of development and growth. As humans, not gods, we are able to put te into practice much more.

 

Looking back over the text, it is obvious now. I had certainly thought a lot about nurturing, but it is good to be able to relate this directly to personal actions - to nurture, rather then be nurtured.

[Marblehead]

I do like your perspective and if it works for you in a positive manner then that is the most important thing.

 

I have always viewed "te" as the "way" of Tao.  Yes, mostly "te" is translated as virtue but I think this is misleading for many readers.

 

Tao's Te is actually absent of, or perhaps above and beyond what we humans call virtue.  We cannot judge the Way of Tao.  It is the way the universe works.

 

But still, I agree that the "te" of Tao is nurturing.  I don't call it love but that's a thing I have.

 

However, we must understand that the way the universe works, and especially applicable to we humans, there is not only love but there is also hate; creation but also destruction.  We humans view these in dualistic terms.  Tao is beyond dualities.

[leth]

What De is can not be fully explained with words, it can only be expereinced and realized through studying Dao.

 

One could say that De is the modus operandi of Dao.

And to have De is to have a modus operandi of or in sync with Dao.

 

And i do belive that love is apart of that, Dao loves. Or one could say that love is a fundamental force of Dao. Of course what one considers love to be is also a question on it's own. And I belive this is but a part of what De is. Or perhaps love is just another word for De, in which case love is far more complex that most would say it is.

[dawei]

I've struggled to find a definition of te that has clicked with me.

 

The third realization is that our own relationship with life is much closet to te than to tao.

 

Looking back over the text, it is obvious now. I had certainly thought a lot about nurturing, but it is good to be able to relate this directly to personal actions - to nurture, rather then be nurtured.

 

One of the better post questions... and discussed over the years.  Even recently our resident Daoist Shaman was talking about this misunderstanding.    Although I have my opinion, his recent post causes me to ponder further.   

 

So I will ask him to comment here. 

 

Here is the thread I reference:

http://thedaobums.com/topic/39508-spirit-essence/

[rene]

My understanding of De is simpler.

 

De - is the efficacy present when manifest follows its own dao (way).

 

For example. Say a mouse is being chased by a cat. If the mouse tries to act like a wolf - and turn and attack the cat - then it will likely fail and die. But if that mouse follows its own way - and runs fast & hides - it will escape. The mouse's power is sourced in being 'mouse' and it's efficacy (de) increases the more 'mouse' it stays.

 

Our De (efficacy) increases when we are our true selves.

 

I yield to others to decide what 'true self' means - to them.

[Daeluin]

To me, de is the expression of dao. 

It may be expressed in any way.

 

When we are both whole and turned inward, our de changes.

The closer we get to this, the more virtuous our expressions appear.

[rene]

Our De (efficacy) increases when we are our true selves.

 

When we are both whole and turned inward, our de changes. The closer we get to this, the more virtuous our expressions appear.

 

Yeppers. Same same. (-:

[dawei]

Our De (efficacy) increases when we are our true selves.

 

I think we have generally agreed to this understand and Way.   I like efficacy for a long time.

 

The only issue I have is that as I go beyond the manifest realm of 'things', these terms get blurred...  into one whole... and when  I return to this realm, I can simply talk of them as separate but I smile as they are not separate.

[rene]

I think we have generally agreed to this understand and Way.   I like efficacy for a long time.

 

The only issue I have is that as I go beyond the manifest realm of 'things', these terms get blurred...  into one whole... and when  I return to this realm, I can simply talk of them as separate but I smile as they are not separate.

 

Ohh..that's not an issue - that's a hobby! Especially for those who dance in both places at the same time.

.  

 

Other than as reflection (if even that, which I doubt), how could there be De outside of the manifest?

 

Edit: There cant. LOL

Edited October 18, 2015 by rene

[flowing hands]

Of course love, compassion etc. are all human understandings of how we personally view the world. To understand, one has to go outside of such things, enter into oneness with the Dao, rid oneself of all desire etc. and be completely at one with all things. In this state true understanding of the nature of all things is a realization. Getting to this state may involve 'love' but not love like we love someone; a love that shows no boundaries or taint. So what is 'De'?

 

De is the force behind all this. It has so many sides and aspects for De to manifest, one can't just simply label it as that. It is linked to 'Dao xin', It is linked to physical cultivation, it is linked to spiritual cultivation and it is manifest as an Immortal. 

[Marblehead]

To understand, one has to go outside of such things, enter into oneness with the Dao, rid oneself of all desire etc. and be completely at one with all things. In this state true understanding of the nature of all things is a realization.

Sure, but that is one hellova row to hoe.

[flowing hands]

Good things never come easy

[scribe]

So many thanks for all your replies. There are subtle distinctions going on, and everyone has their own understanding of all of the words here anyway. Many perspectives makes it easier to 'triangulate' something that we probably all feel instinctively I have been going over translations of chapter 38 to try to get something further.

 

Thanks Dawei for this link:

 

One of the better post questions... and discussed over the years.  Even recently our resident Daoist Shaman was talking about this misunderstanding.    Although I have my opinion, his recent post causes me to ponder further.   

 

So I will ask him to comment here. 

 

Here is the thread I reference:

http://thedaobums.com/topic/39508-spirit-essence/

 

I like this quote: "Dao is the way things are, the spirit is the essence."

 

Dao creates, but once created, existence has its own nature, its "modus operandi" as leth notes.

 

When people are involved, this nature includes togetherness/empathy/love. When sustenance is involved, this nature includes support and nourishment. Clouds and seas are caught up in their own system. Night and day have their own.

 

Maybe it is hard to tell the difference between the nature of something, and the "virtue" of it - the manifestation and the effect. Maybe I'm hitting a false Western-minded cause/effect notion here.

 

This is very helpful - thanks again, all. There is a difference between trying to "follow the tao" and merely living within it.

[soaring crane]

short note to point out that De isn't only "mentioned in the title of the book" it's actually the first "word" in the text, in the more ancient arrangements.

[scribe]

short note to point out that De isn't only "mentioned in the title of the book" it's actually the first "word" in the text, in the more ancient arrangements.

 

I'd heard about previous arrangements, but never found any reference to what they might be. Any good sources?

[Geof Nanto]

I’ve enjoyed reading all these insightful comments; and enjoyed following the progress of the thread as each comment furthered the discussion.

 

Here a passage from Robyn Davidson’s book Tracks. (Tracks is an account of her walk across 1,700 miles of harsh yet magnificent desert from Alice Springs in Central Australia to the sea with only four camels and a dog for company.) For me, it’s an excellent description of de in the person of Eddie – a non-English speaking Aboriginal elder who guided her for a few days…..

 

“For the next two days Eddie and I walked together, we played charades trying to communicate and fell into fits of laughter at each other’s antics. We stalked rabbits and missed, picked bush foods and generally had a good time. He was a sheer pleasure to be with, exuding all those qualities typical of old Aboriginal people – strength, warmth, self-possession, wit, and a kind of rootedness, a substantiality that immediately commanded respect.    And I wondered as we walked along, how the word ‘primitive’ with all its subtle and nasty connotations ever got to be associated with people like this. If, as someone has said, ‘to be truly civilized is to embrace disease,’ then Eddie and his kind were not civilized. Because that was what was so outstanding in him; he was healthy, integrated, whole. That quality radiated from him and you would have to be a dolt to miss it.”

 

 

To my reading, ‘to be truly civilized is to embrace disease,’ is exactly the dilemma the Daodejing and the Zhuangzi are attempting to redress.  Now we need to consciously strive for de that was natural, spontaneous, as well as central to the cultural heritage of people like Eddie.  

Edited October 18, 2015 by Yueya

[Geof Nanto]

I'd heard about previous arrangements, but never found any reference to what they might be. Any good sources?

 

A good reference is Robert Henricks,  Lao Tzu: Te-Tao Ching - A New Translation Based on the Recently Discovered Ma-wang-tui Texts.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Lao-Tzu-Translation-Discovered-Ma-wang-tui/dp/0345370996/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1445206664&sr=1-1

 

[dawei]

I’ve enjoyed reading all these insightful comments; and enjoyed following the progress of the thread as each comment furthered the discussion.

 

Here a passage from Robyn Davidson’s book Tracks. (Tracks is an account of her walk across 1,700 miles of harsh yet magnificent desert from Alice Springs in Central Australia to the sea with only four camels and a dog for company.) For me, it’s an excellent description of de in the person of Eddie – a non-English speaking Aboriginal elder who guided her for a few days…..

 

 

http://www.sino-platonic.org/complete/spp020_tao_te_ching_translation.pdf

 

[The] File [on the Cosmic] Track

[and Individual] Dough[tiness]:

Introduction and Notes

for a Translation of the Ma-wang-tui

Manuscripts of the Lao Tzu [Old Master] 

[Geof Nanto]

Thanks Dawei, for both the reference and noting the synchronicity of 'Tracks'.

 

I've read a little of the excellent discussion by Victor Mair you reference. As a sample for Dao Bum readers short on time, here are the first couple of paragraphs of his analysis of te.  If this whets your appetite, the remainder of this section is on pages 25 to 27, and, in my opinion, well worth reading....... 

 

 

INTEGRITY / te (pronounced duh)

 

The second word in the title of the TTC, namely te, is far more difficult to handle than the first. A sample of its intractability may be gleaned from the astonishing sweep of the following thoughtful renderings which have previously been applied to it: mana, sinderesis, power, life, inner potency, indarrectitude, charisma, and virtue, to name only a few of the brave attempts to convey the meaning of te in English. Of these, the last is by far the most frequently encountered. Unfortunately, it is also probably the least appropriate of all to serve as an accurate translation of te in the TTC. Much of the confusion surrounding the term te in the study of the TTC stems from the fact that, after appropriation by Confucian moralists, it did indeed gradually come to mean "virtue’’ in a positive sense and not merely the Latinate notion of "manliness, strength, capacity." Virtus would be an acceptable translation of te but, regrettably, the English word "virtue" has taken the same moralistic path of evolution as that followed by MSM te.

 

To illustrate how far we have departed from the Old Master, tao-te as a bisyllabic word has come to mean "morality" which is surely not what he had in mind by tao and te. To return to our exploration of the latter term alone, in the very first chapter of the Ma-wang-tui manuscripts (actually only in B, since the first 16 graphs are missing in A), we encounter the expression hsia-te which means "inferior te." Another common expression that was current about the same time as the TTC is hsiung-te which signifies "malevolent te." If we were to render te as "virtue" in such situations, we would be faced with unwanted and unacceptable oxymorons. It is plain that we must seek a more value-neutral term in Modem English. To find what that might be, let us begin by looking intently at the etymology of the Chinese word, after which we will describe the tetragraph used to write it.

Edited October 19, 2015 by Yueya

[Harmonious Emptiness]

There may be no English word, or perhaps any word, which properly encompasses the meaning of De in the Dao De Jing.  But looking at a sentence like

 

By virtue of the Dao's virtue of De, it seems to be virtuous..

 

there are four different meanings from the same word, yet all of them would be needed to show what De is to Dao (and then some, of course).

 

We can at least know some things about De and what De does, that only De "is" and does.  For example, it has existed since before Heaven and Earth.  It nurtures the myriad things and extends their lifespan without having any actual form, colour, sound, etc., of its own.  Does it feel like anything?  Well, it brings peace to people, but that's how it makes "them" feel.  That still doesn't really point to what De "is."

 

So, maybe we only know De by what it does, and not by what it "is."  It "completes its work without renown."

Edited October 19, 2015 by Harmonious Emptiness

[leth]

A good reference is Robert Henricks,  Lao Tzu: Te-Tao Ching - A New Translation Based on the Recently Discovered Ma-wang-tui Texts.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Lao-Tzu-Translation-Discovered-Ma-wang-tui/dp/0345370996/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1445206664&sr=1-1

 

 

Henricks has also made translations of the Goudian slips, which i highly recommend reading.