Verse 94

[flowing hands]

As we have discussed the properties of 'De' and introduced 'Spirit Essence', here is verse 94 from Lei Erh which seems significant.

 

 

Empty the mind of all things

let it dwell in the infinite

 

In the infinite the Dao dwells with the spirit essence

 

In a trance the shaman opens his heart and mind to the infinite

In this state he is realized

 

When the spirit possesses him, he is at one with all things

 

This is the highest state of man

 

In this state he is unconcerned with the human condition, he is unconcerned with good or bad, life or death, profit or loss; for he is at one with the creator of all things

 

Blessed are those who follow the path that leads to the Dao and to the spirit essence

 

Blessed are those who know the three great powers of the universe;

Spirit, Dao and the ten thousand things

 

 

[scribe]

Many thanks for this. What's this from?

[flowing hands]

These are the verses that Lei Erh Xian Shi (Long Lobed Immortal Master), (Lao Tzu) wrote but were never kept or used in the DDJ. Lei Erh is one of my Teachers and he decided he would teach me the verses that were never used and discarded. He is teaching me the verses up to 108.

 

You can download for free the transmitted version of the DDJ from my site, there are some differences to most others.

[taoguy]

Thank you for this. This really resonated with me.

 

Your site's version has up to 81 only though. Are you planning on posting the rest? 

[dawei]

Empty the mind of all things

let it dwell in the infinite

 

In the infinite the Dao dwells with the spirit essence

 

In a trance the shaman opens his heart and mind to the infinite

In this state he is realized

 

I have spent some time trying to formulate a key component to the spiritual journey and have so far only referred to it as the 'boundary issue'.   The verses here seem to key on this; "dwell in the infinite". 

 

In some traditions, they focus on attachment or fear but I've always felt that it isn't getting to the core issue;  attachment means we're creating a boundary; fears means we can't move beyond or past something... In both cases, it seems to me that the attachment and fear are just mechanisms to avoiding the infinite.   

 

In this way, fear may not just be fearing the lose of some attachment but subconsciously the fear of the infinite and what that represents, the absence of any boundaries.

 

And the comment on the heart-mind is another component I was working through recently based on a experience I had.  I have heard the typical saying to 'open your heart' or 'have an open heart' is key.  Because of my past Medical Qigong practices, I tended to focus on this as meaning 'open energetically' or even in the sense of purifying the heart.

 

My recent experience showed me that it is not about this as much as the meaning is that the heart-mind is without boundary; this was the key to understanding boundary issues.   As the verse says, "opens his heart and mind to the infinite".

 

And it is not just about having a lack of fear or a stronghold of trust... These seem just another kind of attachment, on accomplishment.   It seems to be closer to the simple idea of surrender or relinquishing anything which forms a boundary to the infinite.

[flowing hands]

Boundaries; we tend to set them all the time whether it is a way to aim at or a way to restrict ourselves or others.

 

Verse 94 is all about self cultivation; of furthering the self to enlightenment. When a shaman is in a trance of a divine spirit he/she is taken over and goes into a very deep sleep like state where they are at one with the infinite and the divine. They are literally taken to another place. So in the infinite one is aware but not aware, one is a t peace but not at peace etc. one has come to the culmination of being at one with all things. It is a state of being that has to be practiced and then realized.

 

Such people who have been to this state and come back have a different view of the world; this is important.

[dawei]

Blessed are those who know the three great powers of the universe;

Spirit, Dao and the ten thousand things

 

I've been thinking about this comment on the three great powers.

 

I find this a better list than the more conventional Heaven, Earth and Man... but they may not relate.

 

Livia Kohn mentions:

- the three basic forces in human as; spirit, essence, and energy

- three basic universal energies—mysterious, primordial, and original

- the Three-in-One constitute the body of the true sage 

 

A lot is made of 'three in one'.   I don't know that your trying to relate to that... 

 

Can you comment more on your three powers and if they relate to other conventional Daoist ideas or not.

[flowing hands]

'Spirt, Dao and the ten thousand things' 

 

The ten thousand things include humans

 

These three are great powers because of how they have come to be influential on each other. Of course living things are dependant on the other two to a certain extent, although once living things are gone there still is the other two!

[dawei]

'Spirt, Dao and the ten thousand things' 

 

The ten thousand things include humans

 

These three are great powers because of how they have come to be influential on each other. Of course living things are dependant on the other two to a certain extent, although once living things are gone there still is the other two!

 

I know I've asked this before and will just try again

 

How do you explain the ordering of Spirit and Dao?

 

On one hand, I can see many following a Laozi explanation as:

 

Dao begot One/Unity;  One begot Two...  Aside from the usual Yin-Yang, the two could be Immaterial/Spirit and Material/World.

 

But my question is rather:  Do you see Spirit and Dao arising essentially together or one before the other?

[flowing hands]

one before the other

[flowing hands]

only slightly!

[Marblehead]

And very carefully.

[dawei]

Based on past conversations, the interview and this topic... I've come to see that we share a very similar view of the order of these issues.   I just struggle to articulate this as it is not the traditional account most mention.  As well, it seems to go against Laozi 42: Dao begot One; One begot Two, etc.

 

Spirit is not Spirits which include deities and immortals which come later...   as part of the vibration like Dao?

 

I will italicize below where I quote you.

 

'Spirt, Dao and the ten thousand things' 

 

I now understand that this is your ordering. You have previously mentioned Spirit as the force behind everything including 'mainfest Dao'.  

 

Spirit/One:

 

The 'spirit that Li Erh is eluding to I think is the very essence that has created all things. It is present all around us and in us, it has made all things.

No not like Christians, they believe that one God made all things. I beleive that something created the beginning but it is that that makes Gods and Immortals what they are. 

 

At the very beginning, and this is the One, there came a small vibration within the darkness. Now if it is possible to imagine, something so thin, anti matter, so to speak, billions of years ago. The vibration is the One that Li Erh is describing. As this vibration became stronger over the millions of years, heat was produced. With heat came pressure. So its like blowing up a car inner tube, but the inner tube won't expand, put enough air in it and it will explode, bang! When the first vibration happened so Dao was created, for as soon as there was something from nothing and I mean nothing then the order of all things started. 

 

Dao:

 

The universe is bound by the Dao, so it must obey the laws that have created it (we are learning more about this also). The Dao is the great creator of all things, so it is itself and is natural. Remember, like the big bang we can't really know why and how things came into existence although it was explained to me. 

 

 

The ten thousand things include humans

 

Do you place the levels of spiritual beings, entities (other than deities, and immortals) as part of the Ten Thousand arising?

 

 

 

 

P.S.   If you wish me to set this up as another thread instead of in this verse, let me know and I can do that.

[Brian]

Based on past conversations, the interview and this topic... I've come to see that we share a very similar view of the order of these issues. I just struggle to articulate this as it is not the traditional account most mention. As well, it seems to go against Laozi 42: Dao begot One; One begot Two, etc.

 

Spirit is not Spirits which include deities and immortals which come later... as part of the vibration like Dao?

 

I will italicize below where I quote you.

 

 

I now understand that this is your ordering. You have previously mentioned Spirit as the force behind everything including 'mainfest Dao'.

 

Spirit/One:

 

The 'spirit that Li Erh is eluding to I think is the very essence that has created all things. It is present all around us and in us, it has made all things.

 

No not like Christians, they believe that one God made all things. I beleive that something created the beginning but it is that that makes Gods and Immortals what they are.

 

At the very beginning, and this is the One, there came a small vibration within the darkness. Now if it is possible to imagine, something so thin, anti matter, so to speak, billions of years ago. The vibration is the One that Li Erh is describing. As this vibration became stronger over the millions of years, heat was produced. With heat came pressure. So its like blowing up a car inner tube, but the inner tube won't expand, put enough air in it and it will explode, bang! When the first vibration happened so Dao was created, for as soon as there was something from nothing and I mean nothing then the order of all things started.

 

Dao:

 

The universe is bound by the Dao, so it must obey the laws that have created it (we are learning more about this also). The Dao is the great creator of all things, so it is itself and is natural. Remember, like the big bang we can't really know why and how things came into existence although it was explained to me.

 

 

 

Do you place the levels of spiritual beings, entities (other than deities, and immortals) as part of the Ten Thousand arising?

 

 

 

 

P.S. If you wish me to set this up as another thread instead of in this verse, let me know and I can do that.

My opinion is irrelevant here but this is my understanding, too.

[Marblehead]

I still have a different opinion.

 

Oh well.

[flowing hands]

It doesn't matter as long as you don't become a mopai follower you should be ok  

 

Still, I would like to see 27 pages devoted to the understanding of passages of the DDJ and that people are taking on-board and thinking about what Lei Erh has left us!

[dawei]

It doesn't matter as long as you don't become a mopai follower you should be ok

 

Still, I would like to see 27 pages devoted to the understanding of passages of the DDJ and that people are taking on-board and thinking about what Lei Erh has left us!

 

Ok. fair enough.  Let's get back to an important topic on the Five Themes of the DDJ:

http://thedaobums.com/topic/24162-five-important-themes-of-the-ddj/

[Marblehead]

I find it to be a direct contradiction to have the words "politics" and "wisdom" in the same phrase.

[dawei]

I find it to be a direct contradiction to have the words "politics" and "wisdom" in the same phrase.

 

Why?

 

Politics is just a level of care.... think parent... or even self.   Shouldn't we expect wisdom to creep in?

[Marblehead]

Why?

 

Politics is just a level of care.... think parent... or even self.   Shouldn't we expect wisdom to creep in?

My mother never screwed me.  Politics have and I didn't even get a kiss.

[dawei]

My mother never screwed me.  Politics have and I didn't even get a kiss.

 

That's my point... your separating them... let them merge as singularity.

[Fate]

Politics has always referred to the human game of power to me. In this way I appreciate Marbleheads stance that the two do not blend well in any form

 

My guess is you are confusing (or applying different meanings) to governing and politics.

 

Governing seems to be a better way to convey what the DDJ comments on and your concept of care, at least to my languages and Marbleheads.

 

 

[Fate]

The main track of this thread is more worthwhile though.

 

I like to think I have come close to this infinite a few times, but without a proper teacher or method. Near the center the storm seems very intense, I have been blown away by madness a few times. This makes the way back marked with unconscious fears of that madness I'm sure.

 

But now I have a teacher and method for ascent into space (metaphor). My post here is to remind others on the path that it is very beneficial (borderline necessary given society) to have someone who has gone there and back to help you break through to the eye of the storm.

 

I agree that one who comes back even from the proximity I had (sometimes I think I unconsciously went the whole way since I have large black spots in consciousness and memory but) has a profound affect on how you walk in life.

[Marblehead]

That's my point... your separating them... let them merge as singularity.

I'm lost for words.

[flowing hands]

The word politics actually means the organisation of humans and yes the struggle for power and leadership is certainly a strong element. Wisdom within politics is the basis of using power to the benefit of people and other life. Sadly they do go hand in hand and it is the fact that politicians are not wise and generally are in politics for the money and power that the organisation of humans is so poorly met, where one section of society or other life is preyed upon by another. Of course as Daoist we seek equality, people ruling themselves and respect and value for other life. There must be someone to decide about how humans organise themselves, but it is always the wrong people who get into these positions. Lei Erh gives us some ideas about what he thinks on this subject and it is an important one.