Fake enlightened teachers

[Miroku]

1 hour ago, Starjumper said:

 

Not at all, most enlightened people can't do anything like that.

Thank you for the answer. Quite honestly sometimes I get the vibe that people tend to get too hung up on these powers. I myself try to stay away from masters or people who either talk too much about having them or are displaying them too much.

It is fun to hear about them tho. I have heard a story about Chogyam Trungpa and how a student once heard from other students that he is sometimes seen flying through corridors of the retreat center. The student asked Trungpa "Are you really flying through the corridors?" Trungpa looked at him for a long time and then told him "Grow up".

Sorry my story is from second hand. I am not old enough to have my own. But it kinda sums up my view of common siddhis.

[Limahong]

2 minutes ago, Miroku said:

I myself try to stay away from masters or people who either talk too much about having them or are displaying them too much. 

 

Hi Miroku,

 

You are wise because dawei said:

 

On 6/24/2018 at 8:11 AM, dawei said:

Squares and corners spoken are not the eternalness [of squares and corners].

 

- LimA

[Starjumper]

36 minutes ago, Miroku said:

Quite honestly sometimes I get the vibe that people tend to get too hung up on these powers. I myself try to stay away from masters or people who either talk too much about having them or are displaying them too much.

 

Some people certainly do get hung up on having some power, there are some on this forum, and it's very wise to stay away from people who make claims of having such abilities or who make a public showing of them.  However, avatar is a completely different breed of cat, and it's their 'job' to do such things.  I myself experienced some amazing things from Sai Baba and I wasn't impressed at all.  My chi kung teacher was highly enlightened, a wizard, and he had some amazing abilities but they were more along the lines of being super psychic, knowing the future, telepathy, and jedi abilities, I'm quite certain he couldn't make things materialize.  He never spoke of his abilities, never, although he did demonstrate them, like knowing everything I was thinking in class and knowing what I was thinking and doing at home, plus telepathy, but he only made these abilities known in the rare instance where he would comment on something that I had been thinking or doing; or if I asked him a question he would mention something I had done at home as an example if it related to the question.  Another thing is that since he never spoke of such things most people had no idea he could do them.  He never said: "I know what you're thinking", he would just comment on what I was thinking sometimes.  Like a I said, an avatar is a completely different breed of cat, and Sai Baba was an avatar.

[Starjumper]

... and, just because someone has some abilities does not mean that they are enlightened.

[Lost in Translation]

2 hours ago, Starjumper said:

2 hours ago, Miroku said:

Do you think that showing these siddhis or magical powers comes automatically with enlightenment?

 

Not at all, most enlightened people can't do anything like that.

 

38 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

... and, just because someone has some abilities does not mean that they are enlightened.

 

This has potential for a great conversation! 

[Starjumper]

After telling us the story about his visit to Sai Baba’s ashram, Alexander decide to show us his picture of Sai Baba.  He had a little photgraph in his wallet and got that out.  Of course a wallet sized picture is pretty small and I was sitting about in the middle of the room, back maybe like twenty five feet from where Alexander was sitting on the little stage,  Due to this I couldn’t see the picture very well but had some interesting experiences with it.  The picture was glowing brightly with a big yellow aura around it, and I felt love coming from the picture.  No kidding, love coming from a piece of paper, and that was the first time I ever felt love.  In general I think that the only time a person can feel love is when they give it, not when they receive it, and I never did either of those before, however here I was clearly feeling/receiving love from another, and it’s something I’ve never felt before or since.  I wonder how I even knew that it was love, but I did know it.  The last thing that happened is I knew I was looking at god.  Now the important thing here is to differentiate between the meanings of thinking and knowing.  In this modern day and age when someone gets some bit of information they then admire themsleves by thinking they ‘know’ it; but I’m not referring to that, as if it was an idea.  In fact I was a devout atheist at the time and was firm in my belief that there was no such thing as a god, and I still believe there is no god like the god of the Christian fundamentalists, although I’m an agnostic as to the one god idea, and I do know that there are minor gods, or deities is a better word.  Anyway what I want to emphasis is that this knowing he was god was nothing like an idea or a belief, I knew it was a certainty beyond a shadow of a doubt, unquestionable.  He made me KNOW that he was god in spite of my beliefs. It’s interesting to ponder how he could do that or how I could recognize a being as a god, but I did, so I’ll ponder that for a microsecond or two.... OK, done.

 

Another thing that happened during that seminar is that someone sitting behind me said that my aura was very big.  Well I thought it was kind of neat but just slightly, and had no idea what to make of it.. At the time chi kung was unheard of and I didn't  'believe' in body energy.  Some years later I was having coffee with a guy who was wearing a very big complex silver ring that looked like the figure of a seated person.  I asked him about the ring and he said that Sai Baba had made/given it for him during a private interview.  I then told him about what I had experienced from seeing Sai Baba’s wallet sized picture and he told me that was quite rare and important and that I was special to Sai Baba in some way.

Edited July 6, 2018 by Starjumper

[dwai]

My master is one of Baba's guys  

 

He told me many stories about Baba. One time he was visiting the Ashram in India and it was the last day of his trip. He was sad that he was going to leave Baba and come back to the US. He was standing maybe half kilometer away from Baba. As he thought that way, his consciousness entered a bird that was flying around Baba and from that bird's eye view he saw the entire space was glowing with golden/light saffron light, and every person (including his human form) had Baba standing right next to them.  With that, his sorrow was gone and he knew that Baba was with him always.

 

There is so much disinformation about Baba (and about many Gurus in general) in the world, that for the longest time, while I was in India, I considered Baba to be a charlatan. It was not until I met my own Master that I realized the extent of Baba's power. 

My Master is a powerful Daoist/Taiji wizard. I have seen and experienced powerful things from him (no other flesh-and-blood person has come close to showing me that kind of stuff), including one touch of his index finger to my forehead sending me into spontaneous samadhi for 15 days. So when an awesome being like that tells me that Baba is the 'real deal', I have to pay attention!

 

I started experiencing Baba during my regular classes at my master's home. One day we were doing circle meditation (standing daoist circle meditation) and I notice Baba's form hovering over us, at the center of the circle.

 

Another day, I am doing Tai chi out in the park and I see a gigantic Baba standing in front of me. His long saffron robes flowing and covering the earth as far as the eye can see, and the ground I'm standing on his very being...

 

 

Edited July 6, 2018 by dwai

[Starjumper]

22 hours ago, Starjumper said:

If you could ask for anything you wanted, what would it be?

 

So, no one wants to play this game?  Come on, don't be bashful.  If you were requested by an avatar to ask for a gift of some kind what would it be?  

[wandelaar]

11 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

So, no one wants to play this game?  Come on, don't be bashful.  If you were requested by an avatar to ask for a gift of some kind what would it be?  

 

Suppose it were possible to ask for some quite extraordinary things or abilities, than there is the problem of whether you can oversee all the (possibly unwanted) consequences of getting what you asked for.

[Starjumper]

3 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

Suppose it were possible to ask for some quite extraordinary things or abilities, than there is the problem of whether you can oversee all the (possibly unwanted) consequences of getting what you asked for.

 

For extraordinary things or abilities I don't think it's possible for a person to foresee all of what some unwanted consequences may be. In fact it seems to me that all benefits come with an equal share of burden and people of course want to look on the bright side of things when asking or wishing for a gift.

 

I suppose this game won't work and people don't want to tell online, but maybe some thought about it. 

 

Anyway, once Sai baba lamented that:  "Everyone just asks for trinkets, no one asks for what I'm really here to give".  However I did get what he had to give, and without asking for it, and I was on the other side of the world.

[Lost in Translation]

41 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

 

So, no one wants to play this game?  Come on, don't be bashful.  If you were requested by an avatar to ask for a gift of some kind what would it be?  

 

Oh, come on now. Everyone knows that a genie's wishes always backfire. 😁

[dwai]

1 hour ago, Starjumper said:

 

So, no one wants to play this game?  Come on, don't be bashful.  If you were requested by an avatar to ask for a gift of some kind what would it be?  

Liberation 

[Lost in Translation]

6 minutes ago, dwai said:

1 hour ago, Starjumper said:

 

So, no one wants to play this game?  Come on, don't be bashful.  If you were requested by an avatar to ask for a gift of some kind what would it be?  

Liberation 

 

See? That's what I'm talking about. Ask a genie for "Liberation" and he might drop 100 million bucks on your lap and give you perfect health. He also might kill and/or destroy everyone/everything you ever loved. Best to stay away from such things. TANSTAAFL.

[Starjumper]

28 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

 

See? That's what I'm talking about. Ask a genie for "Liberation" and he might drop 100 million bucks on your lap and give you perfect health. He also might kill and/or destroy everyone/everything you ever loved. Best to stay away from such things. TANSTAAFL.

 

It's not like that, all benefits come with burdens, seems like they're pretty well balanced out, they are intrinsically connected.

 

I don't think 100 million dollars and perfect health is liberation though.  I'm not sure what liberation really means, but seems to me that it's one thing that may not come with a share of burden ... so maybe I'm not picturing liberation correctly.  Enlightenment certainly does come with a big hit of burdens, so does being psychic, knowing the future, and so on ad nauseum.

Edited July 6, 2018 by Starjumper

[Lost in Translation]

7 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

It's not like that, all benefits come with burdens, seems like they're pretty well balanced out, they are intrinsically connected.

 

Agreed. I'm just being facetious. But seriously though, nothing is free. If someone offers something too good to be true then run away, fast.

[dwai]

21 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

 

It's not like that, all benefits come with burdens, seems like they're pretty well balanced out, they are intrinsically connected.

 

I don't think 100 million dollars and perfect health is liberation though.  I'm not sure what liberation really means, but seems to me that it's one thing that may not come with a share of burden ... so maybe I'm not picturing liberation correctly.  Enlightenment certainly does come with a big hit of burdens, so does being psychic, knowing the future, and so on ad nauseum.

Indeed...liberation is freedom from the cycle of birth and re-birth for me.

Doing away with all trappings of power, attachments etc etc. Liberation is freedom to simply be.

[Taoist Texts]

4 hours ago, dwai said:

My Master is a powerful Daoist/Taiji wizard. I have seen and experienced powerful things from him (no other flesh-and-blood person has come close to showing me that kind of stuff), including one touch of his index finger to my forehead sending me into spontaneous samadhi for 15 days.

Great. How much does he charge?

[dwai]

10 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

Great. How much does he charge?

If you are seriously interested, PM me.

[Limahong]

21 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

Great. How much does he charge?

 

Hi Taoist Texts,

 

Are you thinking of fake currencies...?

 

 

- LimA

[Taoist Texts]

17 minutes ago, Limahong said:

Are you thinking of fake currencies...?

No. There is no such thing)

 

30 minutes ago, dwai said:

If you are seriously interested, PM me.

Thanks Dwai. I just used your post to make a point. And this point is not about you or your esteemed teacher, God bless you both.

 

The point is as follows. The topic is "Fake enlightened teachers" . Apparently ppl are straggling with the issue of how to recognize them. And they suspect that fakery is somehow connected to them charging money. But they can not connect the dots. Is charging money wrong? Is it ok? Peeps don't know, they are at a loss.

 

I am here to help. Here is a simple yet infallible rule: A teacher wanting money is not necessarily a fake. But a teacher wanting YOUR money is a 100% fake.

 

Think about it for a second. A person of extraordinary skills would have princes and billionaires clamoring for his attention. Such a person would have all the money in the world at his fingertips. So when someone claims to have extraordinary skills yet tries to get personally YOUR measly couple of Franklins....he is certain , bona fide, 120% fake.

[Limahong]

1 minute ago, Taoist Texts said:

No. There is no such thing)

 

Hi Taoist Texts,

 

 

 

 

Good night.

 

- LimA

[dwai]

8 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

No. There is no such thing)

 

Thanks Dwai. I just used your post to make a point. And this point is not about you or your esteemed teacher, God bless you both.

Thank you. My Master is neither interested in taking on too many students (most don't get what he has to offer anyway...he is far too advanced for beginners), nor does he rely on that for a livelihood. Personally, i don't charge for lessons (I make enough with my day job), but then I am circumspect about who I let into my home...there has to be synergy.

8 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

The point is as follows. The topic is "Fake enlightened teachers" . Apparently ppl are straggling with the issue of how to recognize them. And they suspect that fakery is somehow connected to them charging money. But they can not connect the dots. Is charging money wrong? Is it ok? Peeps don't know, they are at a loss.

The problem is, most people don't know a good teacher for a charlatan. Many even consider real masters like Sai Baba as fake.  

It is not a problem that can be solved easily. Some of it has to do with karma. 

 

One of my students was cheated by a teacher who he had invested heavily in (emotionally as well as financially). The man had charisma and some ability too. I think it was karma. 

8 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

I am here to help. Here is a simple yet infallible rule: A teacher wanting money is not necessarily a fake. But a teacher wanting YOUR money is a 100% fake.

 

Think about it for a second. A person of extraordinary skills would have princes and billionaires clamoring for his attention. Such a person would have all the money in the world at his fingertips. So when someone claims to have extraordinary skills yet tries to get personally YOUR measly couple of Franklins....he is certain , bona fide, 120% fake.

There is an inherent fallacious assumption behind the idea that spiritual training should not involve any currency whatsoever. It is an old discussion I remember having right here on TDB when it was TTB. 

 

In the old days, you had to go live with the teacher, clean his home, cook his food, wash his clothes and so on. In exchange he would teach you. Nowadays most teachers don't need that. Some do still ...iinm @Starjumper has that sort of residential school.  So, then some other currency must be used. Maybe money, may be supplies etc. Money seems to be the most practical currency to use, given that everyone uses it  ...

 

Moreover, the internet has made the world smaller. And now a teacher can provide basic instructions fairly well online, in the form of streaming videos, etc. Should they not charge for it?  If their profession is teaching this stuff, and they dedicate their lives to it, why should they not charge?

 

It is a misconception that spiritual teachers make money. Most of them struggle. My first teacher was a full time tai chi teacher and a musician. Both professions were very hard. Yet he kept teaching with a smile on his face and love in his heart. It is the love for the art that keeps these people going...not greed!

 

 

 

 

[Limahong]

17 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

fakery

 

Hi Taoist Texts,

 

I have a bakery in my neighborhood that uses fake recipes.

 

Are they bakers or fakers?

 

I buy with fake currency.

 

So far - I got away free.

 

- LimA

[Limahong]

6 hours ago, dwai said:

Some do still ...iinm @Starjumper has that sort of residential school.  So, then some other currency must be used. Maybe money, may be supplies etc.

 

Hi Steve,

 

What other currency can I use?

 

You accept currency?

 

- Anand

 

 

 

[Starjumper]

7 hours ago, Limahong said:

What other currency can I use?

 

Volunteers, you can pay with volunteers.  Two at a time, and they usually come as couples.

 

Quote

You accept currency?

 

No curry, but we accept money for silly stuff, like buying food for students and paying for the practice center and other stuff, like an Aston Martin Vantage - the V8 will do, no need for the V12.

 

 

Edited July 7, 2018 by Starjumper