Question about mystical experiences

[Kongming]

How should one understand a mystical experience that doesn't lead to enlightenment? In the context of the various Eastern traditions (Daoism, Buddhism, Hinduism), how would such an experience be understood in relation to the spiritual path in general and what are some possible names for these experiences?

 

Here of course I am talking about spontaneous mystical experiences which occur to some people that make them take the spiritual path more seriously and which can alter their entire perception of reality. These experiences often aren't the result of any particular practice and sometimes can even happen to non-believers/materialists/atheists, etc.

 

An important concept in many traditions and especially in Eastern traditions is transcendence, here of space and time, but also individuated consciousness or ego. Let's say someone had an experience of complete transcendence of time, space, ego, etc. which is sometimes how samadhi is described, but also did not become permanently enlightened, still committed moral offences, etc. How should this be understood? What is the significance of such an experience?

 

Has anyone here had a mystical experience such as this, spontaneous or otherwise?

 

In short, can we have a general discussion of mystical experiences and their relationship to enlightenment or spiritual perfection? Please share any thoughts on the topic.

[wilfred]

i feel like such experiences are deeply humbling and in my case provide extra motivation for staying on the path, regardless of the feeling of repeatedly falling on my face. not everyone has 'friends in high places' or the karma for more exotic experiences to be transpiring so easily. i take it as a strong sign, a cue to trust ever more in the experience that is far broader than our minds can fathom.

[Seeker of Wisdom]

I've been gradually getting closer to the first jhana, I haven't really landed it yet but I can definitely enter a state of calm, joyful focus that the bloke on the street doesn't. It's very nice and makes my mind more balanced and sharp, which spills over into how I act and cope with stuff. But this has nothing directly to do with awakening.

 

Mystical experiences of many kinds can provide massive motivation to go further, give people insights which have nothing to do with awakening specifically but make them better people, shake up certainties, etc.

 

But awakening isn't about any particular experience. It's about seeing the basic nature of experience itself, whatever that experience is.

 

Mystical states have the same fundamental qualities - impermanence, dukkha, anatta - as mundane experiences like hearing the sound of a car drive past, or feeling an itch on your face. They aren't in a special category which leads to awakening, but they're so compelling that it's easy to get misguided.

 

It's because we grasp at unstable things that we have a problem, and realising that all things are unstable so we stop grasping is the answer. So whether our experience is 'mystical' or 'mundane', the key is to look at it just as it is, not clinging to particular states, not shying away from probing into the boring and unpleasant.

 

From 'Lessons in Practical Buddhism' by Ven. Yuttadhammo:

 

Wisdom is to see things as they are. It's easy to hear that, and to agree with it, but the key is to understand it for yourself, to see things as they are is just simply, for what they are. If the stomach is rising, wisdom means to know it simply as a rising motion:

 

paṭissatimattāya - with specific and exact remembrance of the object for what it is,

anissito ca viharati - dwelling independent of the object,

na ca kiñci loke upādiyati - not clinging to anything in the world.

 

So when you consider of the meditation practice, this activity where you are required to practice walking slowly or sitting still and repeating a mantra [Mahasi-style noting], before you entertain the view that somehow this mundane activity is obstructing your path to spiritual attainment and supermundane wisdom, you should consider carefully what sort of wisdom you're looking for if not understanding of mundane reality for what it is.

 

[...]

 

This simplicity is difficult to appreciate, and often a meditator will think such a practise is actually detrimental to their spiritual development because of how it stops them from dwelling on pleasant or profound states. It can even happen that a meditator, knowing they must contemplate on impermanence, suffering, and non-self, will come to complain that they are unable to observe the truth because they're too busy watching their stomach.

 

Meditators actually quite often come to complain that their observation of the stomach is unstable, unsatisfying, stressful, and totally uncontrollable; how can we possibly hope to understand impermanence, suffering, and non-self, they ask, if we have deal with such obstacles?

 

You see how silly such thinking is? Such people are successfully engaged in the process of understanding impermanence, suffering, and non-self on a fundamental level, but some may actually run away from the practice because they think that it isn't real meditation; they say such things as, "I'm suffering and you want me to stay with my problems? You want me to look at all of the negative things I have inside? I thought the purpose of meditation was to leave the negative things behind, why are we turning around and looking at them? The last thing I want to do is look at them!"

Is freedom that requires a particular state really freedom?

[Kongming]

It's interesting that, at least in Hindu systems and perhaps for Buddhists too, samsara is becoming, and so liberation is the end of becoming, i.e. entering timelessness/changelessness. Similarly for Daoism, neidan or otherwise, transcending space and time is seen as the ultimate end or goal. Christian mystics, Sufis, Neoplatonists, Hermeticists, etc. have also mentioned these things.

 

So it seems this is seen as the peak or ultimate of many traditions. How then is it possible that some people directly experience or see this, and yet do not right then and there become liberated, Buddhas, Daoist perfected/celestial immortals, etc.? Could it be that people who have experienced this have had an initial awakening as per the Chan/Zen tradition that needs to be followed up with gradual cultivation? Do people who have had such experiences belong to a new ontological status as it were, perhaps something akin to the so-called "stream enterer" in Buddhism and/or being an ariya rather than a puthujjana?

 

I suppose what confuses me is how one could have a glimpse at the ultimate as is reported by these mystical experiences people have had and yet remain mere mortals or unenlightened, non-liberated, subject to fear and delusion, still able to commit moral faults, etc.

[Taoist Texts]

I suppose what confuses me is how one could have a glimpse at the ultimate as is reported by these mystical experiences people have had and yet remain mere mortals or unenlightened, non-liberated, subject to fear and delusion, still able to commit moral faults, etc.

easy. The thing is it was not the ultimate, at all but a mere illusion. maybe a spectacular illusion, but still..

[RigdzinTrinley]

Great Question! fatastic

[Jeff]

easy. The thing is it was not the ultimate, at all but a mere illusion. maybe a spectacular illusion, but still..

 

Excellent point. Any such percieved experience is not the primordial, but more the (local) mind translating an overwhelming flow into something that the mind can handle/comprehend. If one "sees" it or "hears" it, then one is not "being" it.

 

[Kongming]

easy. The thing is it was not the ultimate, at all but a mere illusion. maybe a spectacular illusion, but still..

 

 

Excellent point. Any such percieved experience is not the primordial, but more the (local) mind translating an overwhelming flow into something that the mind can handle/comprehend. If one "sees" it or "hears" it, then one is not "being" it.

 

I can agree that such an experience might not be the ultimate, but I don't know if one could call it an illusion entirely either. I didn't want to put too much of my own personal experience into this question to keep it more neutral and based on generalities, but I had such an experience in the past which prompted me to devote my life to these matters. And yet I am no sage, no Buddha, not enlightened, not liberated, etc., indeed I have plenty of faults and struggle to attain self-mastery.

 

That said, on reality vs. illusion, the experience I had was so powerful (the most meaningful thing to occur in my life) and so real that I've often described it to friends in the past like it was as if everything could be called into question, even obvious truths like 2+2=4, but never the truth and reality of this experience, which had a seal of certitude to it that is quite beyond description. So if it was illusion, then I could only conclude that all is illusion, which indeed does seem to be the position held by some traditions or figures.

 

If it were my lone experience that would be one thing, but it seems that many others have had descriptively identical experiences, and furthermore after the experience suddenly metaphysical or sacred texts suddenly made sense. So it seems there is a commonality involved here. Furthermore it involved conceptions or experiences that I was previously unaware even existed or were possible, namely the experience of timelessness/changelessness and transcendence of space, etc.

 

That said, again I remain an unenlightened mortal with plenty of faults and weaknesses and don't see myself as much more either. So is there any explanation for these experiences other than it was all a grand illusion? If it was illusion, does it lose its meaningfulness or importance? If all is illusion, doesn't even things like beauty or sacred scriptures or the teachings of the sages and all else also lose their meaning? 

 

I know one shouldn't be overly attached to experiences, however grand, and in general I am not, but my main confusion lies on how to understand it.

 

Thanks for the help and if anyone else has had similar experiences or questions about these experiences, do share.

[Seeker of Wisdom]

You might find Daniel Ingram's diagnostic for whether something was nirvana or not interesting (http://www.dharmaoverground.org/dharma-wiki/-/wiki/Main/MCTB+Was+that+Emptiness/en):

 

There are all sorts of pitfalls that can occur, but perhaps the most significant of them all is calling experiences “emptiness,” “Fruition”, “Stream Entry” or “Nirvana” that simply weren’t. [...] Often it is not possible to make a clear call about what was what, even if it was actually Fruition. While what follows is routinely considered to be dangerous information, I am happy to go to the far extreme of telling largely taboo secrets if it helps to balance the pervasive “mushroom” culture. These are some basic guidelines that may be used when trying to answer the question, “Was that emptiness?”:

• If there was any sense of an experience, even of nothingness or something that seemed incomprehensible, particularly anything involving the vaguest hint of the passage of time during it, write it off as something other than emptiness. This is an absolute rule.
• Similarly, if there was any sense of a this observing a that, or a self of any sort that was actually present for whatever happened, write it off as something other than emptiness. If you were there, that wasn’t it.
• If there was not a complete sense of discontinuity and if it makes any sense to think of time, space, perspective or memory continuing across the gap, write it off immediately as something other than emptiness. On the other hand, if the only way to remember what happened involves remembering just forward to the end of the particular door that presented and then remembering back to when reality reappeared, well, keep reading. 
• If on continued repetition of the unknowing event over days or weeks it fails the above tests, write it off as something other than emptiness.
• If continued repetition of that particular kind of unknowing event over days or weeks fails to give any clear experiences of the Three Doors or to reveal something very paradoxical and profound about the nature of subject and object, be skeptical.
• If there was a double-dip into unknowing events with a few profound moments of clarity and altered experience between them, as is characteristic of the A&P Event, with one shift happening half-way down the out-breath and a second shift at the end of that out-breath, write it off immediately as more likely having been that or maybe the early stages of Equanimity.
• If the event cannot be repeated, write it off. Those who have attained a path will attain more Fruitions naturally, maybe one to many per day, as they basically can't help but cycle.If there is not a rather predictable pattern of stages and perspective shifts that begins to become clear (specifically following the course of the progress of insight listed above in some way, particularly as regards shifts in perceptual thresholds) write it off as something other than emptiness.

[Jeff]

I can agree that such an experience might not be the ultimate, but I don't know if one could call it an illusion entirely either. I didn't want to put too much of my own personal experience into this question to keep it more neutral and based on generalities, but I had such an experience in the past which prompted me to devote my life to these matters. And yet I am no sage, no Buddha, not enlightened, not liberated, etc., indeed I have plenty of faults and struggle to attain self-mastery.

 

That said, on reality vs. illusion, the experience I had was so powerful (the most meaningful thing to occur in my life) and so real that I've often described it to friends in the past like it was as if everything could be called into question, even obvious truths like 2+2=4, but never the truth and reality of this experience, which had a seal of certitude to it that is quite beyond description. So if it was illusion, then I could only conclude that all is illusion, which indeed does seem to be the position held by some traditions or figures.

 

If it were my lone experience that would be one thing, but it seems that many others have had descriptively identical experiences, and furthermore after the experience suddenly metaphysical or sacred texts suddenly made sense. So it seems there is a commonality involved here. Furthermore it involved conceptions or experiences that I was previously unaware even existed or were possible, namely the experience of timelessness/changelessness and transcendence of space, etc.

 

That said, again I remain an unenlightened mortal with plenty of faults and weaknesses and don't see myself as much more either. So is there any explanation for these experiences other than it was all a grand illusion? If it was illusion, does it lose its meaningfulness or importance? If all is illusion, doesn't even things like beauty or sacred scriptures or the teachings of the sages and all else also lose their meaning? 

 

I know one shouldn't be overly attached to experiences, however grand, and in general I am not, but my main confusion lies on how to understand it.

 

Thanks for the help and if anyone else has had similar experiences or questions about these experiences, do share.

 

I think that you have raised very fair points.  I did not mean to say that it "real" as in things that happen in the physical world. More just that such experiences are a mind/mental translation of what is happening at deeper level.  Kind of like the table in front of you, it appears (and is) solid to the touch, but at a deeper level you know that it is really mostly just open space with electrons moving very fast creating a repulsive field. And our mind translates it concept of a "table".

 

I have had many such experiences that could be called mystical.  Things like from spending time with many different "divine beings" to sharing energy and presence (that we both felt) with people on the other side of the planet.  All such experiences were meaningful and helpful on my path.

 

Best,

Jeff

[Taoist Texts]

I can agree that such an experience might not be the ultimate, but I don't know if one could call it an illusion entirely either. I didn't want to put too much of my own personal experience into this question to keep it more neutral and based on generalities, but I had such an experience in the past which prompted me to devote my life to these matters. And yet I am no sage, no Buddha, not enlightened, not liberated, etc., indeed I have plenty of faults and struggle to attain self-mastery.

I can totally relate to this because I had a few life-changing mystical experiences too. Nothing special, like a spirit entering my body-mind, experiencing sainthood etc. Of course to me it was more real than a brick wall.

That said, on reality vs. illusion, the experience I had was so powerful (the most meaningful thing to occur in my life) and so real that I've often described it to friends in the past like it was as if everything could be called into question, even obvious truths like 2+2=4, but never the truth and reality of this experience, which had a seal of certitude to it that is quite beyond description. So if it was illusion, then I could only conclude that all is illusion, which indeed does seem to be the position held by some traditions or figures.

 

If it were my lone experience that would be one thing, but it seems that many others have had descriptively identical experiences, and furthermore after the experience suddenly metaphysical or sacred texts suddenly made sense. So it seems there is a commonality involved here. Furthermore it involved conceptions or experiences that I was previously unaware even existed or were possible, namely the experience of timelessness/changelessness and transcendence of space, etc.

 

That said, again I remain an unenlightened mortal with plenty of faults and weaknesses and don't see myself as much more either. So is there any explanation for these experiences other than it was all a grand illusion? If it was illusion, does it lose its meaningfulness or importance? If all is illusion, doesn't even things like beauty or sacred scriptures or the teachings of the sages and all else also lose their meaning? 

 

I know one shouldn't be overly attached to experiences, however grand, and in general I am not, but my main confusion lies on how to understand it.

 

People rarely become buddhas overnight. If such an experience prompted me to study and to practice, if i am making progress slowly but surely, if i know the way to get to the ultimate that i glimpsed from afar, then it is a real experience. If i am stuck, then i either don't know the way, or don't have the strength for the way. or it was an illusion. 

[gatito]

I can agree that such an experience might not be the ultimate, but I don't know if one could call it an illusion entirely either. I didn't want to put too much of my own personal experience into this question to keep it more neutral and based on generalities, but I had such an experience in the past which prompted me to devote my life to these matters. And yet I am no sage, no Buddha, not enlightened, not liberated, etc., indeed I have plenty of faults and struggle to attain self-mastery.

 

That said, on reality vs. illusion, the experience I had was so powerful (the most meaningful thing to occur in my life) and so real that I've often described it to friends in the past like it was as if everything could be called into question, even obvious truths like 2+2=4, but never the truth and reality of this experience, which had a seal of certitude to it that is quite beyond description. So if it was illusion, then I could only conclude that all is illusion, which indeed does seem to be the position held by some traditions or figures.

 

If it were my lone experience that would be one thing, but it seems that many others have had descriptively identical experiences, and furthermore after the experience suddenly metaphysical or sacred texts suddenly made sense. So it seems there is a commonality involved here. Furthermore it involved conceptions or experiences that I was previously unaware even existed or were possible, namely the experience of timelessness/changelessness and transcendence of space, etc.

 

That said, again I remain an unenlightened mortal with plenty of faults and weaknesses and don't see myself as much more either. So is there any explanation for these experiences other than it was all a grand illusion? If it was illusion, does it lose its meaningfulness or importance? If all is illusion, doesn't even things like beauty or sacred scriptures or the teachings of the sages and all else also lose their meaning? 

 

I know one shouldn't be overly attached to experiences, however grand, and in general I am not, but my main confusion lies on how to understand it.

 

Thanks for the help and if anyone else has had similar experiences or questions about these experiences, do share.

 

It's very simple: you're conflating atman (which you've discovered is brahman) with jiva and nirvikalpa samadhi with sahaja samadhi.

 

In other words, you're conflating absolute and relative.

 

You'll be a lot clearer when that stops.

 

It could happen quite quickly or it could take a few years.

Edited October 26, 2015 by gatito

[Kubba]

Seems that these experiences can be sideeffects of approaching enlightenment. It is just process that can last some time, not only in one instant second, cause the physical body and energetical centers need to ajust.

 

I some traditions different experiences are understood as merkers on the path and they ensure ones developement.

 

For example the heart chakra oppening can be accompanied by a lot of things that will change your perspective of preceiving the world forever. When you don't know what it was, but you are confussed, you just go to the guru and tell him about your experience - he then explain it to you, ensure/ test you etc. And it can be a big relieve, yet it can bring temporary attachement too.

 

But spiritual experiences can be endless and they may not constitute anything particullar withouth being established in the eternal in who one is. These are not my words, but it is what I've heard from my teacher when I described to him events that I've been through on a period of months. I've been deluded about them, yet they had their own meaning but I was drunk of them.

 

There is also danger when one is not preppared for these experiences - when there is lack of understanding and lack of someone who can help you with classifying these events unless your conscioussnes matures enought for you to walk on your own feet.

There is a lot of bullshit informations on the web that can mislead someone and put one in wrong assumptions - I remember someone told me thet he had this "enlightement" experience for 2 weeks, but then it subsided and he want it back. So if it subsided then it was something else..... and some even start fooling themselfes, and can even became teachers.... yet they are constitued only at the witness state...

but then you go further and this huge burning question arises - what was it? and then  you loos interest in the world and you want to know only the truth - nothing else matters for you anymore, you can't think of anything else than practice, GOD, LOVE, whole life becomes sadhana

[voidisyinyang]

the phrase:

 

"spiritual experiences can be endless" is key here.

 

The OP has referred to emptiness as some kind of end state

 

 

the end of becoming, i.e. entering timelessness/changelessness.

 

 

and I made this error when I first did my intensive qigong training.

 

I had an enlightenment experience, according to the qigong master, but my interpretation of it was wrong based on this static view of the Emptiness.

 

So, for example, if you study the book "Measuring Meditation" by Bodri and Nan it's clear that to empty out the various levels of consciousness actually also includes the consciousness of the universe as well.

 

At the end of the Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality book the final state, after countless physical bodies and miracles are obtained, is that the golden immortal body vaporizes into pure qi that scatters into the formless universe - but that qi can later manifest into whatever physical form the universe wants it to take.

 

What took me years to figure out is that our reliance on dualistic logic of phonetic-based language is highly misleading.

 

For example the OP says - the "obvious truth that 2 plus 2 equals 4" - but this is not so obvious when you take into account music perception - for example in the natural resonance the octaves actually expand as a spiral so that an octave as 2 does not have quite the double value as 1 nor does 4 quite have the double value of 2.

 

This may sound simple but in fact it's a key point - we conflate numbers with symmetric logic of phonetic based language when in fact the direction that number operates changes its value. This was known to the ancients through music theory - all cultures use the 1-4-5 music natural harmonics but in fact they are non-commutative. That's why Western logic has to compromise the natural tuning so that the numbers align with symmetric geometry and phonetic language.

 

So for example the Tai Chi is modeled by music theory - the Perfect Fifth is yang and in music theory the Perfect Fifth is C to G as 3:2 ratio. But also the Perfect Fifth is a subharmonic as 2:3 ratio with the geometric value of C to F. So that is non-commutative.

 

That basic principle was covered up by Western phonetic logic going back to Plato! So this is a very simple truth that gets covered up - and it's based on the Brahmin logic also - so that the Brahmin Vedic philosophy with Buddhism as a reform of it, also covers up this basic truth. Whereas the "three gunas" of India are based on the 1-4-5 music ratios and they are the oldest philosophy of India.

 

So the key point here is that Enlightenment is an eternal process of harmonization of energy from out of the Emptiness - but since it's a listening process no One is listening to the Emptiness - it resonates and listens to itself thereby creating all of us through the experience.

 

That means there's no center to the Universe - there is no End or final Emptiness to enlightenment - the energy is constantly transforming. If we chose to resonate with its source that process is achieved through the resonance of complementary opposites. So that's why Tai Chi - or sitting in full lotus - or trance dancing - are key to the practice - because the energy flows through complementary opposite resonance.

 

This makes "morality" to be a byproduct of this inherent resonance process. I would recommend studying the Bushmen original human culture spirituality - Dr. Bradford Keeney has an excellent book where he interviews the Bushmen master spiritual healers. They have all the abilities of any spiritual master of any later tradition - all the modern human spiritual traditions originate out of the Bushmen, the original human culture. It's the only culture that has never declared warfare and they know the secret to healthy happy spirituality. But unfortunately their spiritual masters are dying off.

 

So as far as moral offences go - this is a relative phrase. Morality is one of context and relative perspective. So when you say "permanently enlightened" - again this is never the case. the energy needs to eternally be tuned and harmonized through this listening process that is a full body-mind-spirit transformation process as all of reality is based on this complementary opposite resonance.

 

The "spiritual ego" is a huge moral problem - there are tons of cults full of spiritual masters who make moral mistakes and sometimes severe moral errors. Also it can easily be argued that the Eastern religions along with  Western religions, despite having enlightened masters on occasion, as essentially patriarchal and therefore full of moral problems - and these debates can be endless and also I don't think there is any escape from these issues.

 

So in the original human culture it was the females who guided the spiritual healing trance sessions - through their singing - but the males did their intensive training away from the females, for a month of fasting and trance dancing to initiate the young males full of life force energy. But again if the males during the healing sessions were not focused on healing the people then the females would throw cold water on the males to bring them back to their bodies, since otherwise the males would go too much just into astral travel. But what happened is some of the males to further develop their powers would then isolate themselves away from the tribe - and thereby store up their energy. This was considered a moral sin because the energy was considered impersonal to be shared with the tribe - this is the sin of "Hoarding N/om." On the other hand the isolation from the females was to store up the energy for the initial training so that the healing energy would be more powerful and this required years of training to intensify the energy. But what happened is that the males who isolated themselves completely from the tribe then became feared by the rest of the tribe since these males could physically create other bodies and use the bodies for whatever purposes their spiritual egos deemed necessary.

 

So you can see how this was the origins of the original religious male masters and also alchemy training. So even if the final results are achieved though, because this power is based on complementary opposites which originate out of the Emptiness - the Emptiness itself can not be known as a spiritual ego experience. the Emptiness can not be seen - and so even what happens in the Emptiness as action is not necessarily known to the spirit or person doing the action. This is considered fine in some spiritual traditions, for example in advaita vedanta - it's considered that only the Emptiness does any actions. So for example if Ramana Maharshi creates other physical bodies that manifest to people his spiritual ego may not be aware that it is happening. This certainly was the case for his student H.W.L. Poonja, described in his biography, "Nothing Ever Happens." But in Mahayana Buddhism this is considered too limiting because the spiritual ego as self-awareness needs to be aware of what the spiritual abilities are - this is the prajna transcendental wisdom. In Taoist Alchemy this is the difference between Yuan Shen as spiritual ego, self-aware prajna light wisdom, and Yuan Qi as the original Emptiness energy. So for example if you have a spacetime vortex into the Emptiness as a Yuan Qi energy experience - then you will lose all sense of self-awareness and just experience pure Being-Bliss in the Emptiness.

 

So this is "Nirvikalpa samadhi" in the Vedia yoga tradition - but the thing is that experience is based on complementary opposite harmonics - and so it never ends, the body-mind-spirit energy can be continually be emptied out and manifested into multiple other physical bodies and then vaporize into the Universe and when the Emptiness (Yuan Qi) decides then the Yuan Shen will manifest again, as science knows when gamma rays collide then new matter is created - and so manifestation of other physical forms, etc.

 

Sri Aurobindo actually relied on quantum physics to explain this paradox of knowing in spiritual training - to emphasize that this can never be solved - it is inherent to the complementary opposites resonance of reality. For example it's like going into a black hole - the Emptiness or Yuan Qi is the black hole but the energy creates a spacetime 180 degree reversal to transform into a White Hole. So on the other side your spiritual ego has been transformed - what started out as a question is then revealed as an answer on the other side, an answer that the Universe has provided to you. But on the quantum level - this process of going into a black hole - is not your self-aware conscious mind (i.e. left-brain language-based conceptual thinking) but rather what goes into the black hole is your Yuan Shen or right-brain-pineal gland manifesting a unification of qi-shen energy from the heart. It's exactly this process of the unification of the two - of a deeper level of yuan shen going into yuan qi process - that then creates a new level of yuan shen self-awareness on the other side.

 

Now if you are embodied as a living human that process will, after the fact, get translated back into left-brain awareness. But that's still not the same as being self-aware as prajna wisdom while in the samadhi state. Pantanjali's Sutra describes these different levels of samadhi also - but a good example is described in the biography of the most famous Thai Buddhist monk master, Phra Achra Mun. So his meditation partner was levitating but as soon as he became self-aware he was levitating then he collapsed back down. So what was happening? He was going into left-brain language based ego and so he could not maintain the Yuan Qi black hole energy that enabled the levitation. So he had to train to stay in samadhi trance - which means to focus his Yuan Shen prajna light spiritual ego on the levitation to be able to control it - in essence he turned the black hole into a white hole experience. Now he was still in a trance to do that - he couldn't be talking, etc. That is why the training has to be done in secret since it's right brain dominant (the right brain can see but can't talk but it still understands moral reasoning).

 

So the Bushmen describe this a !Xia energy - the ability to focus the pineal gland laser Yuan Shen energy - the eyes remain open but do not blink, in a trance state, as they focus the laser energy of the heart-qi-shen unification. I have seen the qigong master do this when he reads auras or looks inside other people's body - or my own, etc. Also he has manifested numerous Yuan Shens that go out to heal other people - that arise directly out of the Yuan Qi Emptiness energy. If a person resonates their conceptual mind with the Emptiness - with an open heart then they can receive this spiritual healing. But what can happen, just as with a person going out of samadhi, their conceptual left brain mind can block the spiritual healing.

 

So the spiritual ego is different than just the normal left-brain ego. The spiritual ego requires a lot of training but nevertheless it is still a spiritual ego. And so the only way it can be continually humbled is by going deeper into the Yuan Qi black hole spacetime emptiness which creates a 180 degree spacetime reversal - so that the lessons of the past are revealed, the subconscious repressed information is revealed for what it's true meaning is.

 

We do this all the time - for example our sense of smell goes directly to our ancient brain, bypassing our self-aware prefrontal cortex. So when we get a new sense of smell stimulus it will activate the prefrontal cortex but then what happens is the prefrontal cortex will quickly inhibit the smell if we don't like it or if the stimulus is not that strong. This manifests simply by the dominant brain waves - for example a rat will maintain constant theta REM brain waves - because at the Thetra REM brain waves the sense of smell is constantly self-aware - or we could say the rat is constantly in a state of spiritual ego right-brain dominant vision consciousness. Rats can also see ultraviolet light for example. But for a human with left-brain dominant language consciousness that is a faster and more superficial brain state, the Beta brain waves. So what happens is if we wake up from a Theta REM brainwave then we have one thought and one breath where our ego is self-aware of a smell perception that then suddenly will get repressed by the next breath and thought when the dominant left-brain language Beta brain wave awareness kicks in.

 

And so unless we are in that samadhi trance brain wave state will we be unaware of our self-smells unless the smells are new or a strong enough amplitude to over-ride the other dominant brain waves. This can happen on a group level also - like a group synchronized consciousness - for example in a room, a whole group of people will just stop smelling a new smell whereas if someone walks into the room suddenly they'll be overwhelmed by the smell.

 

But in reality smells, the new science has determined, are activated by complementary opposite resonance - so that a molecule or chemical can be the same structure but simply a reverse orientation in symmetry - a left-handed or right-handed molecule then creates a change in phase - literally a change in the magnetic spin of the electrons of the molecule. This simple complementary opposite phase-shift will then create a dramatically different - again a black hole changing into white hole - a 180 degree reversal of moral meaning for the sense of perception. One smell could be sensed as a good smell, while the other smell could be sensed as a bad smell - same molecule, same chemical but only a change in the phase, in the time of the perception.

Edited October 27, 2015 by Innersoundqigong

[Kongming]

Just a few points to address or make comments on:

 

 

So, for example, if you study the book "Measuring Meditation" by Bodri and Nan it's clear that to empty out the various levels of consciousness actually also includes the consciousness of the universe as well.

 

Well I suppose this depends on how you define "universe." Typically when one says universe they mean the cosmos, namely space-time, whereas the experience I am speaking of is that which transcends space-time, yet also encompasses it as well.

 

At the end of the Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality book the final state, after countless physical bodies and miracles are obtained, is that the golden immortal body vaporizes into pure qi that scatters into the formless universe - but that qi can later manifest into whatever physical form the universe wants it to take.

 

So the end of all that hard work is a dispersion of this pure qi into formlessness and then still being dependent on an external will or process (manifesting into what the universe wants)? Isn't this a lack of freedom, being dependent on the flux of changes and manifestations the universe wants to take? Also where does awareness or Mind or Atman fall into this notion?

 

 

For example the OP says - the "obvious truth that 2 plus 2 equals 4" - but this is not so obvious when you take into account music perception - for example in the natural resonance the octaves actually expand as a spiral so that an octave as 2 does not have quite the double value as 1 nor does 4 quite have the double value of 2.

 

I was just using this example as a way to illustrate the seal of certitude or reality of the experience, i.e. it was so real that everything else in the mundane world, even mathematical truths, could be seen as less real or possibly called into question in comparison.

 

 

That means there's no center to the Universe - there is no End or final Emptiness to enlightenment - the energy is constantly transforming.

 

What you seem to be saying here sounds like pantheism to me, or that the universe, again space-time, is all there is, especially since to transform requires before and after, or in other words depends on time. It seems various other mystics and sages from all traditions (including Daoism) have spoken of entering timelessness, a transcendent level or state where all time and hence the flux of becoming has ended. The energy still does constantly transform, but this occurs at the lower level of the immanent universe and in the personal experience of the non-sage, whereas the inner state of the sage even while in this lifetime on Earth brings transcendence into immanence. Meister Eckhart described this state here:

 

"There exists only the present instant… a Now which always and without end is itself new. There is no yesterday nor any tomorrow, but only Now, as it was a thousand years ago and as it will be a thousand years hence."

 

This Daoist teacher here also describes this situation which he refers to at one point as "another dimension":

 

[voidisyinyang]

So the end of all that hard work is a dispersion of this pure qi into formlessness and then still being dependent on an external will or process (manifesting into what the universe wants)? Isn't this a lack of freedom, being dependent on the flux of changes and manifestations the universe wants to take? Also where does awareness or Mind or Atman fall into this notion?

 

I will answer your questions.

 

We are having a rational discussion. After all that hard work - and then being dependent still on an external will - this framework of yours assumes it is "you" doing the hard work and that there is an "external will" for you to be dependent on. Then you ask - isn't this a lack of freedom?

 

This is a good question. The answer, rationally, is given by a recent analysis of Stuart Hameroff.

 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=9&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CFoQFjAIahUKEwiy9Or0g-TIAhVMGx4KHUTCCW0&url=http%3A%2F%2Fjournal.frontiersin.org%2Farticle%2F10.3389%2Ffnint.2012.00093%2Fpdf&usg=AFQjCNFafS6HqSgNMy7thCm7WBmvQ8rWmQ&sig2=BO2saXm2XM_iqu4JtiDVrA

 

pdf link.

 

So I blogged on this paper. The idea of free will is actually conducive to meditation. Ironically sitting in your room and meditating actually increases your free will - and this is explained by Hameroff as to why.

 

This model he provides also explains why time is eternal but space is not. The issue here is time-frequency (energy) as eternal but also being non-commutative.

 

It might be a new model for you to consider - it sounds like it is.

 

Anyway it seems to me that you have asked a question in your OP but not really - a "trick" question for which you think you already have the answer.

 

It seems you want to debate your position. haha. That is very funny indeed.

 

I have provided my views on the matter. Whether you want to investigate them - or not - feel free.

 

So your final question is where does "Mind" come into this as Atman?

 

So again I pointed out Hameroff's model but it's actually based on music theory. As my latest blog on him quotes him - consciousness is more like music.

 

I don't agree with everything Hameroff or Penrose say - I'm not a scientist - but considering science is the mythology of our times, I think they do a good job.

 

First of all you raise the Atman but neglect to point out that I exposed how the Brahmin Vedic philosophy is dualistic symmetric logic - Atman is Brahman. So that ignores the inherent complementary opposites of reality. What I'm saying is very subtle - it is based on non-commutative logic, in other words the direction of the operation changes the value.

 

So for example Chopra and Hameroff try to reconcile this Atman difference with Brahman.

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/deepak-chopra/can-science-explain-the-s_b_675107.html

 

But the key difference that is neglected is this complementary opposite logic. Why?

 

Because the non-commutative logic of quantum physics only applies to the quantum potential which is then converted back into symmetric logic via the Poisson Bracket. So quantum physics is the opposite extreme of real trance meditation training.

 

But nevertheless quantum physics, as per rational discussion, dialectically as the opposite extreme, exposes the truth underlying the semantics.

 

I'm not trying to change your worldview - I realize that words could not do that. haha.

 

But you asked questions. I realize now those questions were just semantic banter on your part since you already know the answer (according to your own worldview).

 

Sorry for intruding.

[Kongming]

Anyway it seems to me that you have asked a question in your OP but not really - a "trick" question for which you think you already have the answer.

 

It seems you want to debate your position. haha. That is very funny indeed.

 

My original question (the relation between mystical experiences and the spiritual path, how they are viewed and what they are called) and what we are discussing (the nature of time and becoming in relation to the end or ultimate goal of the spiritual path) are two different things, so I couldn't have wanted to debate under the guise of asking questions.

 

In any case, I offered those statements and inquiries not out of debate or wanting to assert my position, but merely to better understand what you were trying to tell me. I will give your material a further read when time permits.

 

That said, perhaps we come from different modes of understanding because you seem to rely on or place value on science, quantum or otherwise, in your way of approaching and understanding metaphysics, spirituality, esotericism, mysticism, etc. whereas I tend to avoid science all together when approaching these areas.

[ilumairen]

So the end of all that hard work is a dispersion of this pure qi into formlessness and then still being dependent on an external will or process (manifesting into what the universe wants)? Isn't this a lack of freedom, being dependent on the flux of changes and manifestations the universe wants to take? Also where does awareness or Mind or Atman fall into this notion?

 

We become/merge into the universe. We don't get to keep that which we 'put all that hard work' into because we are no longer that which did all the hard work.

 

 

You are cursing your own experience by pulling it back to you, instead of going with it.

[voidisyinyang]

My original question (the relation between mystical experiences and the spiritual path, how they are viewed and what they are called) and what we are discussing (the nature of time and becoming in relation to the end or ultimate goal of the spiritual path) are two different things, so I couldn't have wanted to debate under the guise of asking questions.

 

In any case, I offered those statements and inquiries not out of debate or wanting to assert my position, but merely to better understand what you were trying to tell me. I will give your material a further read when time permits.

 

That said, perhaps we come from different modes of understanding because you seem to rely on or place value on science, quantum or otherwise, in your way of approaching and understanding metaphysics, spirituality, esotericism, mysticism, etc. whereas I tend to avoid science all together when approaching these areas.

 

The nature of time and spiritual training as harmonic tuning - that is the connection.

 

So science says the total energy of the universe is zero because gravity and dark energy are inverse opposites - but both are measured through symmetric mathematics.

 

You are saying you avoid science all together - but I'm trying to point out that science is actually a religion and what you think of as religion or spirituality is actually the same origin as science - it's all based on symmetric logic going back to the Brahmin vedic math, divide and average mathematics.

 

So all human cultures use the 1-4-5 music intervals - but the Law of Pythagoras says that frequency is inverse to time as wavelength. This is actually based on non-commutative time - so that the Perfect Fifth music interval is geometrically C to F as a subharmonic and C to G as an overtone harmonic - it's the same Perfect Fifth music interval, so it's non-commutative. This is covered up by the "divide and average" mathematics so that C to F has to be converted by doubling its value and then the complementary opposite subharmonic is not allowed. This is called the "phantom tonic" issue.

 

This "phantom tonic" means there is no "one" or no "zero" since both zero and one are also based on a symmetric logic as is infinity.

 

Music as spiritual trance training is based the fact that no "one" is listening - listening is an infinite process of resonance.

 

So for example the small universe or microcosmic orbit is alchemically 12 nodes because of the infinite spiral of  yin and yang as the Perfect Fifth and Perfect fourth music harmonics, creating the 12 notes of the music scale, which in actual empirical natural resonance are an infinite spiral.

 

You are listening - but actually the music is listening to you! There is no beginning nor end to time but since time is non-commutative it is eternally creating energy because of these yin-yang complementary opposites.

 

The yin-yang complementary opposites are the same as the "three gunas" of India from Dravidian philosophy in Tamil, a tonal language. It got assimilated into Vedic Brahmin philosophy and was then known as the oldest philosophy of India.

 

So too did real Taoism get assimilated into Buddhist and later philosophies.

 

O.K. so for time-frequency non-commutative relations this means that as something goes towards the speed of light it goes faster in energy frequency but time also slows down which means that the space wavelength gets bigger. De Broglie realized this basic fact of Einstein's relativity violates the Law of Pythagoras and so logically since quantum physics is real, with time-frequency inverse energy - then there has to be time from the future. He called this the Law of Phase Harmony - what it means is there is a "double solution" to time - it's not a symmetric one-dimensional spatial measurement but rather time is infinite so that the future goes backwards in time, asymmetrically, and harmonizes with your past to create the "now" moment of consciousness. This is called the pilot wave - it secretly guides our consciousness, harmonizing it.

 

So if we choose to resonate with infinite energy then we can have visions of the future and harmonize our energy and store up energy, etc. How this happens psychophysiologically is detailed in that Stuart Hameroff article. But it is not "us" who is resonating with this energy - it is the energy itself that is self-guiding through the inherent complementary opposites of reality. This is as simple as every one knowing that an octave and the Perfect fifth and perfect fourth in music are inherently harmonious - all human cultures use them. But we can not see their source - the natural numbers means 2 does not go into 3 and so the harmonic series diverges and again time is non-commutative to frequency. It is infinite energy eternally harmonizing itself and we can choose to resonate with it.

 

So the ancient science of this training figured out various secrets - like the left eye and left hand and left side of heart are yuan shen and the right hand and right eye and right side of heart are yuan qi. This is even recorded in the Hadith of Islam - Mohammed knew that the right hand is solar and the left hand is lunar and in Vedic religion the left eye is lunar and the right eye is solar.

 

So a person's morality is tied to their personal memories of their spirit and culture whereas their proto-consciousness is impersonal energy and so the Yuan Shen is the spiritual ego - it is kind of the bridge to the Yuan Qi as the proto-consciousness Emptiness energy. The Yuan Shen is the Atman and the Yuan Qi is the Brahman - but the key point here is unlike Vedic logic - Yuan Shen and Yuan Qi are yin and yang. What happens is when the Yuan Shen goes into the Yuan Qi this is like the black hole getting turned into a white hole, creating a 180 degree time reversal and so the frequency energy goes into infinity, thereby turning (in science) the gamma rays into physical matter - or Yang Shen.  But the Yang Shen is then the Yuan Jing as new yin energy - and so the cycle of energy flow is constantly harmonizing and having dissonance on different levels, never the same, always changing.

[Dharmakaya]

How should one understand a mystical experience that doesn't lead to enlightenment? In the context of the various Eastern traditions (Daoism, Buddhism, Hinduism), how would such an experience be understood in relation to the spiritual path in general and what are some possible names for these experiences?

 

Here of course I am talking about spontaneous mystical experiences which occur to some people that make them take the spiritual path more seriously and which can alter their entire perception of reality. These experiences often aren't the result of any particular practice and sometimes can even happen to non-believers/materialists/atheists, etc.

 

An important concept in many traditions and especially in Eastern traditions is transcendence, here of space and time, but also individuated consciousness or ego. Let's say someone had an experience of complete transcendence of time, space, ego, etc. which is sometimes how samadhi is described, but also did not become permanently enlightened, still committed moral offences, etc. How should this be understood? What is the significance of such an experience?

 

Has anyone here had a mystical experience such as this, spontaneous or otherwise?

 

In short, can we have a general discussion of mystical experiences and their relationship to enlightenment or spiritual perfection? Please share any thoughts on the topic.

 

I had a mystical experience when I was in high school that was in essence a complete glimpse of enlightenment, or a samadi experience.  This glimpse of enlightenment was the most beautiful and amazing experience I had ever had (and ironically it happened in the bathroom at my high school).  The shell of my logical and conceptual ego completely dropped away leaving nothing but the united present moment.  I had been having manic depressive episodes up until this point, where for a few weeks my mind would be under a heavy and oppressive weight of anxiety and self-criticism, and then I would have a day where this cloud lifted and my mind would just race at 200%.  The day my mystical experience happened was a super manic day, and for an instant I broke through the barrier of ego and glimpsed what lies on the other side. 

 

This experience only lasted maybe 20 seconds, and I then returned to normal.  Although I had had this tremendous experience, I was than back in my normal everyday mind.  However the impact of this experience was great; afterwords I knew without any doubt that a state of mind existed  that was utterly transcendent, and of greater importance than any possible material gain.  After this experience, I would have given anything to return to that state; in the brief moment I experienced it I clearly saw it to be the pinnacle of existence. 

 

So to answer your question, while this experience did not necessarily make me a 'better' person, it gave me a massive boost in spiritual drive because I knew irrevocably that reaching the end of the spiritual quest was more valuable than anything else in life.  IMO the spiritual path is extremely difficult, and it can only be accomplished by those who are willing to literally give it their all.  Thus to have gained this mindset as result of the mystical experience was invaluable.  

 

Cheers!

Edited October 29, 2015 by Dharmakaya