Daoism and the Warrior

[Kongming]

What is the relationship between Daoism and the warrior ideal? Is there a true Daoist equivalent to the Zen-inspired (and to a lesser degree, Shingon-inspired) samurai ideal outside of the popular image of various wuxia novels and films? How has Daoism treated the warrior and battle historically and how has Daoism viewed a warriors death in battle?

 

As mentioned, in popular wuxia material like Legend of Condor Heroes, Daoist figures like the Quanzhen Perfected Seven were transformed into great martial arts heroes, and this precedent of Daoist warrior heroes goes back even further, say like Gongsun Sheng from the Water Margin. However, does anyone know how historic Daoism, such as Huang-Lao, Tianshi, Shangqing, Lingbao, and Quanzhen viewed the position of the warrior and the hero?

 

Is there any connection in the Daoist viewpoint between the warrior, or his implements such as the sword, and spiritual growth/practice?

 

Obviously many martial art traditions, especially Neijing, are connected with Daoism, but I've heard claims that this connection is tenuous and not a true historic reality.

 

In short, please discuss anything and everything regarding Daoism's relation with the warrior spirit and its relation, if any, to the spiritual path.

[Zhongyongdaoist]

In Religious Daoism Xuanwu, the Emperor of the North is one of the most important deities.  Mount Wudang is sacred to him and his was the Patron God of the Ming Dynsasty.

 

He serves both the function of Daoist "Dharma" protector among other things he is very important in Daoist Thunder Magic, and also the Cosmological function of the God of Water, the North and the Kidneys.

 

That's just the quick, short story.  No time for more now.

[Michael Sternbach]

 

Is there any connection in the Daoist viewpoint between the warrior, or his implements such as the sword, and spiritual growth/practice?

 

Obviously many martial art traditions, especially Neijing, are connected with Daoism, but I've heard claims that this connection is tenuous and not a true historic reality.

The internal martial arts strongly tie in with Daoist principles. Thus, "Bagua" is a direct reference to the eight trigrams of the Yijing. An important "external" link is provided by the Wudang montains, famous for the practice of both Daoism and "soft" martial arts. Much like Shaolin stands for Chan (Zen) and "hard" martial arts.

 

All these connections are deeply rooted in the collective consciousness of the Chinese; they are as authentic as it gets. Not that all the legends surrounding this would hold up to historic scrutiny. But the objectifying and classifying perspective of the positivist historian is itself at odds with the Daoist's associative and intuitive take.

 

Of course, we could also enter another tedious discussion about what does and doesn't count as true Daoism. We talked about this recently regarding The Art of War, on our continuing thread dedicated to Sun Tzu's classic. The book is widely understood to be a Daoist text and stands in a similar relationship to other general Daoism like the writings of Takuan Soho and Myamoto Musashu to Zen Buddhism.

 

In short, please discuss anything and everything regarding Daoism's relation with the warrior spirit and its relation, if any, to the spiritual path.

An excellent topic, to be sure.

Edited October 28, 2015 by Michael Sternbach

[Taoist Texts]

What is the relationship between Daoism and the warrior ideal?

none.

. However, does anyone know how historic Daoism, such as Huang-Lao, Tianshi, Shangqing, Lingbao, and Quanzhen viewed the position of the warrior and the hero?

With aversion, disgust and sadness.

 

 

And what about the sword of the common man?' asked the king (once more).

 

(Zhuangzi) replied, 'The sword of the common man (is wielded by) those who have their hair in a tangle, with whiskers projecting out; who wear slouching caps with coarse and unornamented tassels, and have their coats cut short behind; who have staring eyes, and talk (only) about the hazards (of their game). They hit at one another before you.

 

Above, the sword slashes through the neck; and below, it scoops out the liver and lungs. This is the sword of the common man. (The users of it) are not different from fighting cocks; any morning their lives are brought to an end; they are of no use in the affairs of the state. Your Majesty occupies the seat of the Son of Heaven, and that you should be so fond of the swordsmanship of such common men, is unworthy, as I venture to think, of your Majesty.'

 

《說劍 - Delight in the Sword-fight》

[Marblehead]

none.

With aversion, disgust and sadness.

WoW!  You get mean when you get serious.

[Taoist Texts]

WoW!  You get mean when you get serious.

Hehe, check out the merry ending of this story by ZZ.

[Taomeow]

All taoists (real ones) I know are martial arts practitioners, whether this makes them warriors is debatable, but I am sure a martial taoist is much closer to tao than an armchair one.  Whoever didn't notice tao do battle wasn't paying attention.

 

And is not a mother. 

 

Let alone Mother of All Things. 

[dust]

Of course, we could also enter another tedious discussion about what does and doesn't count as true Daoism.

 

What odds do you want that this won't eventually turn into another such tedious discussion?

 

 

With aversion, disgust and sadness.

 

I can't imagine that ZZ was particularly big on throwin' 'bows, but I also can't imagine that he would have felt quite that strongly about it...

[Taoist Texts]

.... but I also can't imagine that he would have felt quite that strongly about it...

 

its because he is a master of understatement.

 

.....and the swordsmen all killed themselves in their own rooms.

 

THE END

 

 

[Kongming]

none.

With aversion, disgust and sadness.

 

I somehow doubt with a religious tradition spanning anywhere from 2000-5000 years or more (depending on how you view the origins of Daoism) with such varied currents that the answer can be this simple. One glaring example otherwise would be the Yellow Turban movement which was related to the Tianshi Dao and based around the Taiping jing that certainly engaged in warfare, and I believe Zhang Lu, supposed grandson of Zhang Daoling, killed a rival in order to establish his theocratic Daoist state in Sichuan during the Three Kingdoms period.

 

While I am sure that Daoism, like all sophisticated religious and philosophical traditions, prefers and emphasizes peace and non-violence, I somehow doubt that they had absolutely no connection with any martial, warrior, or heroic traditions and viewed all of them with aversion and disgust always.

 

As far as I know, the DDJ is also against weapons and war, but it also states that when their use is unavoidable that the best way is use them with detachment (rather than hatred or anger) and to not celebrate victory.

Edited October 28, 2015 by Kongming

[Kongming]

Also, did I accidentally post this topic in the Daoist Textual Studies subforum or did a mod move it here? I just ask because my original intention was to post it in the Daoist discussion forum.

[Chang]

Also, did I accidentally post this topic in the Daoist Textual Studies subforum or did a mod move it here? I just ask because my original intention was to post it in the Daoist discussion forum.

 

I will move it to Daoist Discussion.

[Chang]

What of the concept of the Warrior Sage?

[Taoist Texts]

I somehow doubt with a religious tradition spanning anywhere from 2000-5000 years or more (depending on how you view the origins of Daoism) with such varied currents that the answer can be this simple. One glaring example otherwise would be the Yellow Turban movement which was related to the Tianshi Dao and based around the Taiping jing that certainly engaged in warfare, and I believe Zhang Lu, supposed grandson of Zhang Daoling, killed a rival in order to establish his theocratic Daoist state in Sichuan during the Three Kingdoms period.

That is certainly a valid argument, which boils down what is real daoism and what is its folk ofshoot.

 

1600 years after the 'daoist' Taiping above, there was another Taiping, this time around a Christian one.

 

After reading a pamphlet he received a year before from a Protestant Christian missionary, Hong claimed that his illness was a vision to the effect that he was the younger brother of Jesus, who was sent to rid China of the "devils", including the corrupt Qing government and Confucian teachings. He felt that it was his duty to spread his interpretation of Christianity and overthrow the Qing dynasty. One of Hong's associates, Yang Xiuqing, who was formerly a firewood merchant from Guangxi, claimed to be able to act as the voice of God.^[8] Issachar Jacox Roberts, an American Baptist missionary, became a teacher and adviser to Hong.^[9]

In 1843, Hong and his associates founded the God Worshipping Society, a heterodox Christian sect, and used it to spread their ideas and attract followers. The sect increased its power initially by suppressing groups of bandits and pirates in southern China in the late 1840s. However, over time, persecution by Qing authorities caused the movement to evolve into a guerrilla rebellion and subsequently a widespread civil war.

 

IMHO, they both were not really Christian or Taoists, but its a matter of personal preference.

 

While I am sure that Daoism, like all sophisticated religious and philosophical traditions, prefers and emphasizes peace and non-violence, I somehow doubt that they had absolutely no connection with any martial, warrior, or heroic traditions and viewed all of them with aversion and disgust always.

 

As far as I know, the DDJ is also against weapons and war, but it also states that when their use is unavoidable that the best way is use them with detachment (rather than hatred or anger) and to not celebrate victory.

Right. There are a lot of martial flavor on the surface of and around Taoism: martial arts, wrathful gods, martial magic, there was even a sect of swordsmen-alchemists at one point. But these are peripherals.

 

过府穿州，路见不平报人雠。腾身屋上走，暗里取人首，只说是豪气贯斗牛，谁知道行同盗寇。真修行，惟知自补咎。劝学人你把这侠客事务一笔勾。

 

There are those who go through provinces and cross the counties, seeing unfairness on their way they respond to peoples’ complaints. They soar up bodily and run on the rooftops, in stealth cutting of a wrongdoer’s head, and call it a heroic spirit in action, which transcends to the Pole Star and Altair.  Little they know that their conduct is the same as banditry. The true cultivation is but knowing thyself and mending own faults. I advise students to take this wandering knights’ business and scratch it out by one stroke of a pen.

 

(Liu Yi-ming)

[Taomeow]

I somehow doubt with a religious tradition spanning anywhere from 2000-5000 years or more (depending on how you view the origins of Daoism) with such varied currents that the answer can be this simple. One glaring example otherwise would be the Yellow Turban movement which was related to the Tianshi Dao and based around the Taiping jing that certainly engaged in warfare, and I believe Zhang Lu, supposed grandson of Zhang Daoling, killed a rival in order to establish his theocratic Daoist state in Sichuan during the Three Kingdoms period.

 

Not to mention the White Lotus Rebellion, led by a doctor of taoist medicine, and even the original Triads leaders (before non-taoists turned them into what is reputed to be a gangsta kind of possey.) 

 

But more importantly, taoist priests of skill, attainment and courage (a prerequisite that does not always come with the territory of taoism but is always welcome when it does) were employed for centuries to do battle in the spirit realms, as exorcists, ghost busters, demon fighters and demon eaters, possession cleaners -- in other words, warriors for health for the individual and the community. 

 

Occasionally this was necessary to do in the human realm too.  "Did you kill a king?"  they asked the author of the I Ching.  "No, we executed a tyrant," he responded.  Meaning -- removed the abuser of the mandate of Heaven and restored tao where it had been destroyed.  Very taoist in my book -- and there's no book more taoist than the I Ching in the Taoist Canon, into which it was included long before Laozi, Zhuangzi et al.  

 

It is ridiculous to doubt that taoists will fight for the right reasons at the right time.  This is the cat's meow of wei wu wei.  

[Daeluin]

A warrior isn't necessarily one who fights in wars. In early times I imagine a warrior-like attitude would be developed from working hard to be as strong, healthy, and able to navigate and survive in one's environment as possible.

 

In doing this, one must understand one's environment and one's self.

 

Long ago there wouldn't have been as strong of a thinking emphasis as there is today, and it would be much easier to achieve a mind-body integration from the cultivation of alertness and physical health and ability. Nor would cultural elements need to be as binding, for as one gained in prowess as a warrior, one would also cultivate the ability to be more independent from the tribe, earning greater freedom from attachment and all the spiritual gains that come with this.

 

The deeper one would integrate into one's body, the more likely it would be for one's meridians to open and begin to cycle, and it would be natural for one to discover how this enhanced one's ability to move more naturally and powerfully, leading one to develop more fluid, animal like movements, full of grace and art.

 

These are just my speculations, but to me it seems that this idea of an early tribal warrior would lead handily into spiritual development. No doubt there were warriors who felt strongly tied to their tribes and identified with the protection of their tribes, and this could easily have been more prevalent. However I feel that the warrior path of health and survivability could also expose one to elements of spirituality. With great inner development comes deeper awareness of things that lead one away from violence, and there would have been those who listened.

[Wu Ming Jen]

 Wu Dang translates as the perfected warrior.

 

When engaging in battle always leave a way out for the opponents. If the opponents feel trapped they will turn into tigers.

 

 A Warrior will end violence, greed and fear from themselves once they learn to control their own bodies then controlling others is easy.

[Kongming]

I've heard from some that the jian sword is important to Daoism: it features in liturgical rituals, Lu Dongbin carries a jian, Zhang Daoling also has a jian, and of course there's martial forms some connect to Daoism such as Taijijian. Baolin Wu has a book entitled "The Eight Immortals' Sword of Pure Yang" which apparently deals with the jian as a tool for spiritual development, though I've heard some say the book is filled with much fiction.

 

In any case, is anyone aware of the position of the sword in Daoism and where one might be able to read more?

[dust]

I can't speak for the ancients, but in modern times, the general definition of a 'warrior' is one with courage who is experienced and skilled in battle/war.

 

I'm no 'Daoist', and I'm certainly no 'warrior' by this definition, so I might not have any idea what I'm talking about, but from my relatively disengaged perspective I must suggest that though any individual Daoist might practice martial arts, might be experienced in battle, might indeed show 'courage' or resolve in the face of danger, the archetypal Daoist sage does not precisely fit this general modern warrior profile.

 

If we define 'warrior' in a more specific, idealistic way...

 

The ideal warrior is assertive, active and energized. He or she is clear-minded, strategic, and alert. A warrior uses both body and mind in harmony and cooperation. A warrior is disciplined. A warrior assesses both his own resources and skills and those arrayed against him. A warrior is a servant of civilization and its future, guiding, protecting, and passing on information and wisdom. A warrior is devoted to causes he judges to be more important and greater than himself or any personal relationships or gain. Having confronted death, a warrior knows how precious and fragile life is and does not abuse or profane it.

http://www.meredithsuewillis.com/warrior%20ed%20tick.pdf

 

... we might come to the conclusion that a Daoist may indeed embody many aspects of the warrior, but probably not all. One cannot practice 'non-doing' and harmony and be a full-time assertive killer (generally bent on furthering 'civilization' and annihilating the enemy).

[Daeluin]

The jian is associated with the water phase. While using it I feel connected to a deep current, and must take care to nurture this connection. It swirls and cycles, ebbs and flows, connected to the very heart of one's root. When striking I feel all of this momentum thrusting forth to penetrate deeply, like an unstoppable crashing wave, but one with precision and focus, and then, remaining connected to that wave I allow the momentum to return within to the circles and cycles of the current.

 

Perhaps these energetics are related to the value in ritual.

[Wu Ming Jen]

In the book balance and harmony the sword of wisdom is a recipe with all ingredients needed to transform a mortal back to  a divine human. Knowing what the key words are referring to is necessary to break the code

 

"The Sword of Wisdom"

Ever since adepts handed on
the secret of the sword,
The true imperative has been upheld
Completely, truly adamant.

If someone asks me about
Looking for its origin,
I say it is not ordinary iron.
This lump of iron
Comes from receptive stillness;
When you obtain it, it rises up.

Forging it in a glowing fire,
Through repeated efforts
It is refined
and forged into steel.

When students of the Tao
Know this secret,
The spirit of light is intensely powerful,
And devils of darkness vanish.

The subtle function of spiritual work
Is truly hard to measure;
I now give an explanation for you.
In telling you about it,
I divulge the celestial mechanism.

Setting to work when one yang comes back,
First have the six yangs pump the furnace bellows;
Then the six yins work the tongs and hammer.
When the work of firing is complete,
it produces the sword;
When it is first done,
It flashes like lightening.

Brandish it horizontally
and a cold clear breeze arises;
Hold it upright,
and the shining bright moon appears.
When the bright moon appears,
Auspicious light illumines heaven and earth;
Sprites and ghosts are distressed.

It stops turbidity, brings out clarity,
Sweeps away weird defilement's;
It slays volatility,
cuts down aggressiveness,
Destroys monsters:
Influences draining away
Vitality, energy and spirit
All vanish in the light of the sword.

Entanglements cut off, rumination dies down,
And the web of feelings is rent asunder.
Where the spiritual edge is aimed, mountains crumble;
The demon kings of mundane planes are all routed.

This precious sword fundamentally has no form;
The name is set up because it has spiritual effect.
Learning the Tao and practicing reality
Depend on this sword;
Without this sword,
the Tao cannot be achieved.

Opening up the vast darkness,
distinguishing heaven and earth,
Dissolving obstructions, transmuting objects -
All is included.
If you ask me to show it to you,
I bring it out before you-

[Taomeow]

The jian is associated with the water phase. While using it I feel connected to a deep current, and must take care to nurture this connection.

 

   Mine was made in a Chinese village specializing in jians for generations, and whatever they put into its qi, I felt right away.  I wanted to give it a name, so I meditated on it and came up with "inexhaustible well," "exuberant spring," "water-maker."  Asked my teacher what would sound good, he said, it already has a name.  Dragon Well.  Here, it says so on the blade, in plain Chinese.  Face palm...  

[Michael Sternbach]

@Taoist Texts: What was the sect of swordsmen-alchemists you mentioned called? I would like to know a little more about them.

[PLB]

What one chooses to fight or not fight, at any given point of time, is what shapes the world beyond understanding.

It is difficult to be responsible about this sort of thing. But that is what is being called upon to do.

[Michael Sternbach]

A warrior isn't necessarily one who fights in wars. In early times I imagine a warrior-like attitude would be developed from working hard to be as strong, healthy, and able to navigate and survive in one's environment as possible.

 

In doing this, one must understand one's environment and one's self.

 

Long ago there wouldn't have been as strong of a thinking emphasis as there is today, and it would be much easier to achieve a mind-body integration from the cultivation of alertness and physical health and ability. Nor would cultural elements need to be as binding, for as one gained in prowess as a warrior, one would also cultivate the ability to be more independent from the tribe, earning greater freedom from attachment and all the spiritual gains that come with this.

 

The deeper one would integrate into one's body, the more likely it would be for one's meridians to open and begin to cycle, and it would be natural for one to discover how this enhanced one's ability to move more naturally and powerfully, leading one to develop more fluid, animal like movements, full of grace and art.

 

These are just my speculations, but to me it seems that this idea of an early tribal warrior would lead handily into spiritual development. No doubt there were warriors who felt strongly tied to their tribes and identified with the protection of their tribes, and this could easily have been more prevalent. However I feel that the warrior path of health and survivability could also expose one to elements of spirituality. With great inner development comes deeper awareness of things that lead one away from violence, and there would have been those who listened.

 

You have described the true warrior very well. Practising martial arts is a way to foster this spirit.