Questions on Yangshen

[Creation]

33 minutes ago, freeform said:

Not pulling any punches today!

Thanks, that was really helpful.

 

What I still wonder about is there are contexts where people just talk about the hun and po, as you did earlier in the thread, and as Damo did in his podcast about the soul, as if the (heart) shen, yi, and zhi are irrelevant in such contexts, and I'm wondering exactly what those contexts are.  Reincarnation?  Surely the shen and yi play into that.  Drives/impetus to take action?  Surely the shen and yi play into that too.  

 

Let me give my best guess as a starting point.  Drive/impetus to action and reincarnation are two sides of the same coin.  Shen is where information from that which is beyond reincarnation comes from, so it is not considered relevant to that process, yi is fundamentally neutral unless interacting with other spirits and so is not considered relevant, and zhi is the fundamental drive behind it all but is itself also neutral, and so is not considered relevant. 

 

Also, the term yi-nian comes up in WLP's material a lot, is yi as you are using it (as both awareness and intent) synonymous with yi-nian?

Edited July 22, 2021 by Creation

[freeform]

18 minutes ago, Creation said:

Thanks, that was really helpful.

I re-read it and it sounded a bit chaotic and confusing 😅

 

But I’m glad you made at least some sense of it.

 

19 minutes ago, Creation said:

as if the (heart) shen, yi, and zhi are irrelevant in such contexts, and I'm wondering exactly what those contexts are.  Reincarnation?  Surely the shen and yi play into that.  Drives/impetus to take action?  Surely the shen and yi play into that too.  

The different contexts kinda follows the different ‘bodies’ and the corresponding ‘realms’ that they exist in… most of the information available on Daoism is in regards to your physical and energetic bodies… with the soul, we’re talking about some of the higher bodies.

 

The Shen, Yi and Zhi are not aspects of the soul as such - but the Zhi connects you to physicality - to Jing and Ming… but upon death it dissolves.

 

The Shen is like a lake that reflects the Dao - or at least is capable of it - if it can become still enough… But it dissolves back into heaven upon death.

 

The Yi - as you say doesn’t have much of its own function except in how it anchors and relates with the other spirits. It also dissolves upon death.

 

The impetus for reincarnation is on a different, higher realm than the soul.

 

You can break the bodies and their relevant realms into 3: heavenly, earthly and human (and they are subdivided further in my tradition).
 

The soul is in one of the higher ‘human’ realms… the soul is in essence individuated - (though the Hun also has a connection to all human souls and all your past and future incarnations.)

 

The impetus to incarnate or reincarnate happens in one of the heavenly realms…

 

(The original spirit which is not individuated in the same way as the soul also exists within these higher realms.)

 

44 minutes ago, Creation said:

Also, the term yi-nian comes up in WLP's material a lot, is yi as you are using it (as both awareness and intent) synonymous with yi-nian?

Yes exactly

[Creation]

41 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

You can break the bodies and their relevant realms into 3: heavenly, earthly and human (and they are subdivided further in my tradition).

I've heard of 8, and a further subdivision into 64.  You always mention how your teacher explains these things in terms of the Yijing, are the 8/64 bodies put in correspondence with the trigrams/hexagrams?  And do heaven and human get subdivided into three each and earth only into two, or some other permutation of that arrangement?

Edited July 22, 2021 by Creation

[freeform]

48 minutes ago, Creation said:

I've heard of 8, and a further subdivision into 64. 

Haha - well my teacher teaches 9… and 72.

 

But it doesn’t really matter so much.

 

49 minutes ago, Creation said:

You always mention how your teacher explains these things in terms of the Yijing, are the 8/64 bodies put in correspondence with the trigrams/hexagrams?

Whilst anything can be explained in terms of the hexagrams, my teacher primarily uses the Yi Jing to describe change, rather than stable things… sorry I can’t be much less cryptic than that 😅

 

 

[Bindi]

14 hours ago, Cleansox said:

Well, it answered the question 😁

 

But ok, true yin + true yang +true intention makes marvellous result. 

How would you describe true yin (note - this is not a yes/no question  )

[Cleansox]

28 minutes ago, Bindi said:

How would you describe true yin (note - this is not a yes/no question  )

Note how I go in to avoidance mode when such a direct question pops up 😁

[Master Logray]

Freeform can write textbook.

[freeform]

4 hours ago, Master Logray said:

Freeform can write textbook.

i find this stuff fascinating - I just don’t have the skill to explain it in an easy to understand, elegant way

[Cleansox]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

i find this stuff fascinating - I just don’t have the skill to explain it in an easy to understand, elegant way

I recommend avoidance mode 😁

[Geof Nanto]

On 23/07/2021 at 1:28 PM, Bindi said:

How would you describe true yin (note - this is not a yes/no question  )

 

I imagine by now you’ve found information on this because I know you’re a good researcher. And, having read it, you may understand Cleansox’s reticence about answering your question. 

 

I’ve attached an essay by Fabrizio Pregadio which I’ve recently read that makes good reference to true yin and true yang in the context of Liu Yiming’s perspective on correct and incorrect Neidan practice. I consider it an essay well worth reading whether or not one agrees with Liu Yiming.  As Pregado notes,  Liu Yiming’s “views on Neidan are, on the one hand, grounded in some the most deep-rooted aspects of this tradition, but also, on the other hand, so adverse to convention as to appear radical in their detachment from accepted standards. However, while Liu Yiming’s teachings on Neidan are in many ways unique, his works represent one of the most important instances of an integral exposition doctrine in the history of this tradition”.

 

Also worth noting is that Liu Yiming was an 11th-generation master of one of the northern branches of the Longmen (Dragon Gate) lineage.

 

Discriminations in Cultivating the Tao.pdf

[Geof Nanto]

11 hours ago, freeform said:

i find this stuff fascinating - I just don’t have the skill to explain it in an easy to understand, elegant way

 

You do very well. I very much like reading your contributions here even though my own perspective on alchemy is markedly different from yours. It's also worth noting that no one has ever been able to write about the deeper levels of alchemy in an easy to understand way.  That simply is not possible.  As Isabelle Robinet writes in The World Upside Down, "The language of alchemy is a language that attempts to say the contradictory." 

[Cleansox]

On 2021-07-24 at 6:22 AM, Yueya said:

Liu Yiming’s perspective on correct and incorrect Neidan practice.

You just inspired me to read Cultivating the Tao (Xiuzhen houbian). 

Maybe I will resonate better with Liu this time. 

[johndoe2012]

On 24.7.2021 at 6:22 AM, Yueya said:

 

I imagine by now you’ve found information on this because I know you’re a good researcher. And, having read it, you may understand Cleansox’s reticence about answering your question. 

 

I’ve attached an essay by Fabrizio Pregadio which I’ve recently read that makes good reference to true yin and true yang in the context of Liu Yiming’s perspective on correct and incorrect Neidan practice. I consider it an essay well worth reading whether or not one agrees with Liu Yiming.  As Pregado notes,  Liu Yiming’s “views on Neidan are, on the one hand, grounded in some the most deep-rooted aspects of this tradition, but also, on the other hand, so adverse to convention as to appear radical in their detachment from accepted standards. However, while Liu Yiming’s teachings on Neidan are in many ways unique, his works represent one of the most important instances of an integral exposition doctrine in the history of this tradition”.

 

Also worth noting is that Liu Yiming was an 11th-generation master of one of the northern branches of the Longmen (Dragon Gate) lineage.

 

Discriminations in Cultivating the Tao.pdf

 

I would say the answer to the location of the One Opening of the Mysterious Barrier is to shout PHAT or ask who is in your experience and look. There it is! 😊

[awaken]

Those who leave a message on daobums have very high standards. Unfortunately, in the discussion of Yangshen, they did not mention the most fundamental classics. Zhouyi participated in the same contract. Modern discussions about the gods of Yang and Yin are mostly based on the "conjecture" of the transportation method. The so-called story of Lu Dongbin is also fabricated and is not true. To know the true god of yang and god of yin, one must look at the same contract of Zhouyi.

"Nourishing Life Chapter 20"
1 The desire to nurture sex, prolong life but the period. After deliberation, consider the first. There is nothing in the body of a person. Yuan Jingyun cloth, because of (qi) support the beginning. Yin and Yang are degrees, and the soul lives. Yang Shen Sun Soul, Yin Shen Yue Soul. Soul and soul are each other's house. In the main office of sex, stand Yin'e. Outside the main camp of love, build a fortress. The fortress is complete, and the character is Ann. At the time of 爰si, love and the universe. Dry moving and straight, (qi) cloth essence flow; Kun is quiet and yi, it is a Taoist house. Just retreat, soften to nourish. Nine returns seven, eight returns to six residences. Men are white and women are red, gold and fire are bound together. The water sets the fire, the beginning of the five elements. The goodness is like water, clear and flawless. The image of Tao is really difficult to figure out. Change and distribute, each living alone. The class is like a chicken, white and black match, and one inch wide, thinking that the beginning. The limbs and five internal organs are all muscles and bones. In the tenth month of the calendar, get out of his cell. The bones are weak and can be rolled, and the flesh is as smooth as lead.

Key point: Yin and Yang are degrees, where the soul resides. Yang Shen Sun Soul, Yin Shen Yue Soul. Soul and soul are each other's house.
So we know that the yang god defined by the Zhouyi reference Tong Qi is the sun soul, and the yin god is the moon soul. Question What is the soul of the sun and the moon?

11 Set up a safe furnace to set up the heaven and earth, exercise the essence and make soul soul.
12 Gathering and dispersing, making changes, dare to talk about the mystery and so on.
13 The furnace is used to transport fire, and the cauldron is to stir medicine. The way of the golden pill, the softness of Fa Kun is the furnace, and the gradual progress; the sturdiness of the effect is the tripod, and the cooking is fierce. Can be strong and soft, healthy and smooth; strong aspiration, the longer the stronger; the cauldron is stable, unshakable and unshakable; you can collect medicine and carry fire. The human mind knows that the outer yang and the inner yin are like the essence of the sun, and the sun ejaculates outside; the true knowledge of the Taoist heart is like the blossom of the moon, and the moon blossoms inside. Gnostic knowledge of the external yang belongs to the soul, and true knowledge of the external yin belongs to the soul. Gnostic spirit, the so-called god and the god, the true knowledge of Huapu, the so-called godless person. God and God, there are false, not God and God, false in the truth. Those who refine the essence will smelt people's soul to know the truth out of the false, and refine the truth in the false mind of the Dao. If the false spirit is gone and the true spirit is set, the soul will not fly and the soul will control, the true knowledge will appear but the false knowledge will die, the soul will not disperse but the soul will control. Once the soul is in control, then the true knowledge and ingenuity, the affection and nature are similar, condensed into one spirit, entangled and reconciled, gathering and dispersing, lonely, feeling and smooth, step by step, all are heavenly secrets. Among them, the magic can not be described in words.

The first half of this passage is the chapter about Wuzhen, and the second half is the direct instruction of Wuzhen written by Liu Yiming.
Key 1: Gnostic knowledge of the external yang, belongs to the soul, true knowledge of the vulva, belongs to the soul.
Key point 2: The human mind knows that the outer yang and the inner yin are like the essence of the sun, and the sun ejaculates outside; the true knowledge of the Taoist mind is like the flower of the moon, and the inner yin of the moon is also inside.

In addition, we also know that the essence of the sun is black liver, and the flower of the moon is rabbit marrow, as follows:

4 First, use Qiankun as a pot, and use the black rabbit medicine to cook.
5 After driving the two things back to the ecliptic, striving for the golden core and insolvency?
6 Dry, healthy, take the image as the sky; Kun, Shun Ye, take the image as the ground. In the artificial nature of rigidity and softness. There is black in the sun, which is the yin in the yang, in the hexagram, it is liberation, and the inner yin is away from the yang. There is a rabbit in the middle of the month, which is the yang of the yin, which is called the kan, and the kan is the outer yin but the inner yang, and the inner yang is the true yang, which is the true knowledge of the Taoist heart.

The above four sentences are from the article on Wuzhen, and the explanation below is from Liu Yiming's direct reference to Wuzhen.

Therefore, it is known that the essence of the sun is the black liver and the soul of the sun. The rabbit marrow of the moon is the moon soul.

From the Yellow Emperor's Classic of Internal Medicine, it can be known that the heart hides the spirit, the liver hides the soul, the lung hides the soul, the spleen hides the meaning, and the kidney hides the will.

From the above, we know that the spirit and will are actually different faces of the same god, and the god in the black liver state is called the soul. The god in the state of rabbit marrow is called soul.

Therefore, according to the definitions in the Zhouyi Shen Tongqi and Wuzhen Chapter, it can be seen that in the state of the soul, the god is called the yang god, and in the state of the soul, he is called the yin god, and the true and complete god must be in the state of soul. Only when the mind orifice is fully opened can it appear, that is, the god in the state of emptiness is the complete god where the heart hides the gods. Therefore, the yang gods and the yin gods refer to the incomplete gods, the undeveloped gods, this is According to the definition of Zhouyi participating in the same contract.

The fully developed god is accompanied by a void environment, and produces an interior scene as described in the Zhouyi Shentongqi:

In the main office of sex, stand Yin'e. Outside the main camp of love, build a fortress. The fortress is complete, and the character is Ann.

That is to say, there is a character in the city wall. This is the sun god in the legend, but according to the Zhouyi reference contract, this is not the sun god, this is a real person.

In other words, according to the definition of the Zhouyi Shentongqi, Yangshen is a type of awareness, that is, a type of mind, and it is a type of mind that is in a state of black liver.

The above article is written in Chinese and translated into English with google. Please forgive me if there are translation errors.

 

 

在daobums留言的人，水準是非常高的，可惜在陽神的討論上，並沒有提到最根本的經典，周易參同契。近代關於陽神陰神的討論，大多基於搬運法的『猜想』，所謂呂洞賓的故事，也是杜撰出來的，並非真實。要知道真正的陽神陰神，必得從周易參同契來看。

《養性立命章第二十》
1     將欲養性，延命卻期。審思後末，當慮其先。人所秉軀，體本一無。元精雲布，因（氣）託初。陰陽為度，魂魄所居。陽神日魂，陰神月魄。魂之與魄，互為室宅。性主處內，立置鄞鄂。情主營外，築垣城郭。城郭完全，人物乃安。爰斯之時，情和乾坤。乾動而直，（氣）布精流；坤靜而翕，為道舍廬。剛施而退，柔化以滋。九還七返，八歸六居。男白女赤，金火相拘。則水定火，五行之初。上善若水，清而無瑕。道之形象，真一難圖。變而分布，各自獨居。類如雞子，白黑相符，縱廣一寸，以為始初。四肢五臟，筋骨乃俱。彌歷十月，脫出其胞。骨弱可卷，肉滑若鉛。

重點：陰陽為度，魂魄所居。陽神日魂，陰神月魄。魂之與魄，互為室宅。
所以我們知道，周易參同契定義的陽神就是日魂，陰神就是月魄。問題什麼是日魂月魄呢？

11     安爐立鼎法乾坤，鍛煉精華制魄魂。
12     聚散氤氳成變化，敢將玄妙等閒論。
13     爐所以運火，鼎所以煆藥。金丹之道，法坤之柔順以為爐，循序漸進；效乾之剛健以為鼎，猛烹急煉。能剛能柔，能健能順；志念堅固，愈久愈力；鼎爐穩定，不動不搖；可以採藥運火矣。人心靈知，外陽而內陰，如日之精，日精射外也；道心真知，如月之華，月華藏內也。靈知外陽，屬魂，真知外陰，屬魄。靈知精魂，所謂神而神者，真知華魄，所謂不神面神者。神而神，其中有假，不神而神，假中含真。煆煉精華者，煆去人心靈知真中之假，煉出道心假中之真。假靈去而真靈定，則魂不飛而魂制矣，真知現而假知滅，則魄不散而魄制矣。魂魄既制，則真知靈知，情性相投，凝為一氣，氤氳衝和，聚散變化，寂熬不動，感而遂通，一步一趨，皆是天機。此中神妙非可以言語形容者也。

這段上半部是悟真篇，下半部是劉一明寫的悟真直指。
重點1：靈知外陽，屬魂，真知外陰，屬魄。
重點2：人心靈知，外陽而內陰，如日之精，日精射外也；道心真知，如月之華，月華藏內也。

另外我們也知道，日之精是烏肝，月之華是兔髓，如下：

4     先把乾坤為鼎器，次搏烏兔藥來烹。
5     既驅二物歸黃道，爭得金丹不解生？
6     乾，健也，取象為天；坤，順也，取象為地。在人為剛柔之性。日中有烏，為陽中之陰，在卦為離，離外陽而內陰，其內一陰為真陰，在人為人心所藏之靈知。月中有兔，為陰中之陽，在封為坎，坎外陰而內陽，其內一陽為真陽，在人為道心所具之真知。

上面四句來自悟真篇，下面解說來自劉一明悟真直指。

故而得知，日之精為烏肝，為日魂。月之華為兔髓，為月魄。

從黃帝內經可以得知，心藏神，肝藏魂，肺藏魄，脾藏意，腎藏志。

從以上得知，神魂魄意志，其實是同一個神的不同面貌，在烏肝狀態下的神，稱為魂。在兔髓狀態下的神，稱為魄。

所以根據周易參同契和悟真篇的定義，可以看出，神在魂的狀態下，稱為陽神，在魄的狀態下，稱為陰神，而真正的完整的神，則必須在心竅完全開啟的狀態下，才能出現，也就是虛空狀態下的神，才是心藏神的完整的神，所以陽神陰神指的都是不完整的神，未發展完全的神，這是根據周易參同契的定義。

而發展完全的神，則伴隨有虛空的環境，並且產生如同周易參同契所描述的內景：

性主處內，立置鄞鄂。情主營外，築垣城郭。城郭完全，人物乃安。

也就是有一個人物在城牆當中，這就是坊間傳說的陽神，但是根據周易參同契，這不是陽神，這是真人。

也就是根據周易參同契的定義，陽神是覺知的一種，也就是心神的一種型態，而且是處於烏肝狀態下的心神型態。

以上文章採用中文書寫，並用google翻譯成英文，若有翻譯錯誤，還請見諒。