Conscious or Lucid Dreaming or Dream Yoga - Any Non-esoteric Resources?

[DreamBliss]

I am looking, primarily, for video resources, followed by audio resources, followed by written resources, on the subject of becoming a proficient conscious or lucid dreamer.

 

I would prefer to avoid all the esoteric mumbo-jumbo stuff. In fact, you can consider that with anything I post at these forums, I want nothing to do with ceremonies and esoteric processes. All spiritual practices are ultimately very simple, it is man in the physical who complicates them.

 

Looking for materials or places where personal experiences in conscious or lucid dreaming are shared. Looking for clear, simple instructions in techniques. Conscious dreaming, lucid dreaming and dream yoga all apply.

 

I want to start having fun with my dreams. I want to adventure and explore. But ultimately, I want to invent, learn and practice. This is my primary motivation. My intention is that the majority, if not all, of my dreams become conscious or lucid. No matter the consequences, if any.

 

90% or more conscious or lucid dreams, 10% or less dreams where I am not conscious or lucid, the reverse of my current experience. Conscious or lucid dreaming every night on a regular basis. No long intravels between days of lucid dreaming. No intravels at all, or very short ones.

 

It has been (I started to write it is, which would perpetuate the undesired state) somewhat difficult for me to become conscious or lucid in my dreams. I would find a Dream Sign, something that shows up in many of my dreams, and use that to become conscious or lucid. Then the Dream Sign would stop showing up, or I would stop noticing it somehow.

 

Maybe this Vipassana "retreat" I attended will have one advantage, that in learning to "tune in" to my body and what it feels like, what is going on with it. Because I would not be looking to changeable external ques to become conscious or lucid, instead observing my body and breathing, maybe that will help.

 

Training now in using the pendant a friend gave me, holding it, saying, "Lucid Dream" 3 times, then tuning into my body at that moment. We'll see how that goes.

 

I have done, and experienced, some terrible things a few years back when I was having more conscious or lucid dreaming experiences. But I am not as I was then, I am not a Christian anymore, and now I have this meditation training, including Vipassana.

 

I have forgive myself for my actions, worked on any fear I have in me, and freed myself to be as monstrous as I need to be, no restraints, restrictions or rules. But I have sent out a warning to all Dream Characters, so that they will not show up in my dreams if they are not forgiving and patient. I figure once I get everything out of my system I will settle down and be better.

 

I included this brief overview to give you an idea of how I am as a conscious or lucid dreamer and a little of my background. This should help you figure out the best resources to share. As always I appreciate your help. I am moving on from my studies in meditation to focusing on a handful of areas for these few months I still have a home. They are: conscious or lucid dreaming, writing and maybe some Blender modeling/UE4 mapping.

 

I would like to use my dream time for meditation and to learn Unreal Engine 4 (UE4.) These are my intentions. Not goals, because, for me, a goal is something to be attached to, and an intention is not. I have these strong desires and intentions, but I must also flow, or keep my boat pointed downstream. Makes life easier.

 

For those of you confused about this topic, wondering why, my answer is simple. When you become conscious or lucid in a dream, you know you are dreaming while you are in a dream. At that point there is, literally, nothing you can't do. Among other things you can learn anything, practice anything, fly, walk through walls, receive advice about your life and explore the depths of the ocean or the universe.

 

The dream world is a world free of all the restrictions of the waking, physical world. Even time is irrelevant in the dream world. In 5 minutes of lucid dream time you can gain years of study and practice on any subject. People are generally unaware of this, that is why you may not have heard about it. If this subject interests you, look up conscious or lucid dreaming at your local library or bookstore.

 

I started a thread at Dream Views covering one aspect of the dream world:

http://www.dreamviews.com/general-dream-discussion/158993-what-if-dream-characters-feel-themselves-real-we-feel-about-ourselves.html

 

Thank you for your help!

Edited November 1, 2015 by DreamBliss

[Golden Dragon Shining]

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/193049114X?*Version*=1&*entries*=0http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/193049114X?*Version*=1&*entries*=0
 

Lucid Dreaming: Gateway to the Inner Self Paperback – October 1, 2008

by Robert Waggoner

 

Edited November 2, 2015 by Sionnach

[DreamBliss]

Thank you. I actually own this book, and I was not impressed with it at all. I can't figure out why everyone else seems to think it is so good :/

 

But I appreciate you sharing this with me! Please note I also have both of Stephen LaBerg's books on lucid dreaming, and Robert Moss' book on Conscious Dreaming.

 

I also have a hold on, "The Tibetan Yogas of Dream and Sleep" at the library as well as a few other titles. Talk about esoteric! Oh and I am reading Waggoner's most recent book.

 

In addition I have some videos from Robert Moss, some stuff from Carlos Casteneda (again esoteric), the audio from Hemi-Sync as well as the Monroe Institute, and all the stuff from Saltcube/lucidity.

 

You could say I am rather informed on this subject. Not to mention that Dream Views has a few thousand techniques I can unearth and try. I am looking for that one video, that one audio, that one book which I have not heard of. Which maybe only a few people, if anyone has heard of. That upon listening, reading or watching, something clicks, like when I first read, "Lucid Dreaming for Beginners" by Mark McElroy. That book was what started everything for me, when the first cracks in all my beliefs structures began to appear.

 

BTW those are cool pics in your avatar and signature!

Edited November 2, 2015 by DreamBliss

[taoguy]

i'd like to know more about this too.

 

I know a very advanced cultivator who literally stays lucid in his dream cycle, to the point that he sometimes cannot differentiate dreams and reality. He trained it by increasing his intensity in meditation throughout the day, and then staying lucid for the dream. He did astral projection as well, which he says can happen during the dream cycle too. Recalled many past lives too.

 

The way he explains it is to hear the inner sound ringing, then ride that sound all the way until all the other things appear (tingling, lights, etc)... Then one eventually pops out when all of them become intensified.

[C T]

try Rebecca Turner. Search 'World of Lucid Dreaming'. 

 

Non-esoteric. You need to pay for the course. 

 

Not for me, but may suit your search. 

[RigdzinTrinley]

Did you read namkhai norbus book? Or meet him? Just meeting the man changed my dreaming life forever

 

Or mindells work - my girlfriend is reading him atm, looks interesting

[DreamBliss]

I can find not materials by Namkhai Norbus at my library or on YouTube related to Lucid Dreaming. The man appears to be another liberation focused Buddhist monk. I have, honestly, had quite enough of the religion of Buddhism. But thank you for the suggestion, if life puts the man in my path, I will be allowing, open and receptive.

 

I have a hold on Arnold Mindell's, "Dreaming While Awake." Nothing at YouTube behind psychology. I find psychology to be just about as esoteric as the Buddhist practices. This book, as I recall, was very hard to read. But certainly interesting and worth reading. For those interested:

http://www.amazon.com/Dreaming-While-Awake-Techniques-24-Hour/dp/1571743596

 

Maybe Lucid Dreaming can lead to enlightenment, or higher states of consciousness, or is a higher state of conscious. Honestly I don't care. For me this is simply something I can practice and derive benefit from. I don't need or want anything else. Just being able to Lucid Dream on a regular basis, to begin to use this time to have fun, invent, learn and practice, that is enough for me. I'll let anything else happen or not happen as it will, it is of no interest to me.

[DreamBliss]

i'd like to know more about this too.

 

I know a very advanced cultivator who literally stays lucid in his dream cycle, to the point that he sometimes cannot differentiate dreams and reality. He trained it by increasing his intensity in meditation throughout the day, and then staying lucid for the dream. He did astral projection as well, which he says can happen during the dream cycle too. Recalled many past lives too.

 

The way he explains it is to hear the inner sound ringing, then ride that sound all the way until all the other things appear (tingling, lights, etc)... Then one eventually pops out when all of them become intensified.

 

Explore this forum, ask me questions here or there if you have any, my user name is the same:

http://www.dreamviews.com/

 

The forums is not as friendly or nice as these forums. But there is all the information you cold ever ask for there on Lucid Dreaming. It is, as far as I know, the best resource on the internet.

 

As far as books start with these:

http://www.amazon.com/Lucid-Dreaming-Beginners-Techniques-Interactive/dp/0738708879

http://www.amazon.com/Exploring-World-Dreaming-Stephen-LaBerge/dp/034537410X

http://www.amazon.com/Dreaming-Stephen-LaBerge-Market-Paperback/dp/B00ZT29DPC

 

As far as videos, start here:

https://www.youtube.com/user/stephenberlin

https://www.youtube.com/user/GordonXPhillips

https://www.youtube.com/user/TracyChapman

https://www.youtube.com/user/lucidipedia

https://www.youtube.com/user/LucidDreamInfinity

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC82JRYhU0yRWKS9q1MXGW

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCF0hWVrqo0iMcuos3SeUhAQ

 

Please note that other than the videos by Stephen Berlin, I do not know the quality of this material. This is the best of what I have found by looking just now. I think you will find much useful information here.

[doc benway]

A few comments from my own dream practice:

The specific method may be less important than cultivating the proper approach and attitude. 

The intent, dedication, and consistency are critical. 

The practice needs to be a 24 hour cycle - daytime, preparation for sleep, during sleep, and upon awakening. 

Alcohol and drugs can erase months of work in no time at all...

 

Cultivating lucidity has been quite elusive for me but I have had a lot of great success.

It took me a very long time to see results. We have to be patient and supportive of ourselves.

We need to be committed but not overly serious. Playful but consistent. Reverent but relaxed.

 

I think the more esoteric approaches have one significant advantage - integrating the spiritual view and practices with the dream practice makes it easier for us to connect to ourselves at a deeper, more subtle level. Dream practice is about building a bridge between the light and the dark, the obvious and the subtle, between two realities. If we can develop a feeling of reverence and great respect, it helps. If we can develop great confidence and trust in the method and the teacher, it helps. 

This is why connecting to your body when you do daytime practices and reminders is so important. The message, the bridge, needs to connect deeper than the intellect for it to come up in dream. I suggest you connect with your body, allow the mind and internal dialogue to settle, feel and rest in that internal space, feel supported and comfortable there, connect for a while and then give yourself whatever instruction or reminder you prefer (I use - this is a dream, this is a dream, I am free to do anything, this is a dream... and so on). Try to repeat this at least 15 times a day. 

 

If you're willing to spend a little cash there are frequent online workshops available from a variety of good teachers here - http://www.glidewing.com/  (Robert Waggoner, Marc Allen, Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche)

 

Finally, I'd highly recommend Tibetan Yogas of Dream and Sleep. Even though it is quite esoteric, it has a great deal of valuable information much of which is easily adaptable to a more secular approach. While you may chose not to practice the specific techniques the book is well worth reading.

 

Good luck!

[Golden Dragon Shining]

Thank you. I actually own this book, and I was not impressed with it at all. I can't figure out why everyone else seems to think it is so good :/

 

But I appreciate you sharing this with me! Please note I also have both of Stephen LaBerg's books on lucid dreaming, and Robert Moss' book on Conscious Dreaming.

 

I also have a hold on, "The Tibetan Yogas of Dream and Sleep" at the library as well as a few other titles. Talk about esoteric! Oh and I am reading Waggoner's most recent book.

 

In addition I have some videos from Robert Moss, some stuff from Carlos Casteneda (again esoteric), the audio from Hemi-Sync as well as the Monroe Institute, and all the stuff from Saltcube/lucidity.

 

You could say I am rather informed on this subject. Not to mention that Dream Views has a few thousand techniques I can unearth and try. I am looking for that one video, that one audio, that one book which I have not heard of. Which maybe only a few people, if anyone has heard of. That upon listening, reading or watching, something clicks, like when I first read, "Lucid Dreaming for Beginners" by Mark McElroy. That book was what started everything for me, when the first cracks in all my beliefs structures began to appear.

 

BTW those are cool pics in your avatar and signature!

 

Thanks!

 

I found it good, I was lucid dreaming previous to it, for me all I really need is intention (meditation before sleeping helps), going to bed early with a light stomach, being well hydrated and natural deep breathing, I find peppermint oil enhances this and clarity. Sleeping with amethyst under my pillow too. + Keeping a dream journal writing down everything you remember in the morning/waking at night even if small.

Edited November 3, 2015 by Sionnach

[Oneironaut]

Conscious dreaming CANNOT be separated from its spiritual/esoteric component regardless of whether it's from a Buddhist or taoist background. Can it work without? Yes. But you will have very limiting and varying results and it will reach the point to which it'll make your attempts futile. Stephen LaBerge took the Tibetan foundational practices, stripped it out of its spirituality and added a few psychological tricks. His dream mask does not work and is a complete waste of time and money.

 

One major component to successful dream practice is mindful awareness. This can be achieved through shikantaza or vippashyana meditation. Both spiritual practices. LaBerge's method relies on heavy and artificial forcing of awareness that has very limiting results in the end. By working on mindful awareness and getting it to the point that it's at an enlightened level then conscious dreaming becomes effortless. After you become proficient through practice effortless is the way it's meant to be. Dream practice is a yin practice. The yang element is nothing more than the expression of your will. Your intention.

 

Intention is a very important element in dream practice. Have the intention to remember your dreams. Have the intention to become conscious in your dreams. Have the intention to recharge as you sleep consciously (taoist power napping and yoga nidra) and the intention to wake up at a certain time so that you reinforce remembering your nightly journeys. This is also a spiritual practice. Even more so when you make intentions by moving the energies in your body through the microcosmic orbit.

 

As far as using ki is concerned, this is very important in the taoist dream practice because it elongates the window of opportunity to create an intention to dream consciously right before you zonk out. You're taking the narrow strip between waking consciousness and dream consciousness (call it a neutral force) and making it longer so that you have the opportunity to set your intention to dream, have the equivalent of 8 hours rest in just 4 or travel through energetic planes. The Tibetans like to visualize a lotus flower with a bright red/Orange flame burning in the middle. This flame is supposed to represent the light of awareness. I greatly admire the Tibetans and their visualization skills. They reach the point to which they can close their eyes and recreate the physical world in their visualizations in all 5 senses vividly. These advanced visualizations are done in the waking state and can be used to literally meditate yourself into a dream.

 

Ironically the Tibetan practices are much more psychologically practical then the spiritually void and handicapped psychological tricks proposed by LaBerge and the western circus of "rational" thinkers. Even the taoist approach of lucid living (cultivation of awareness) is an infinitely more logical approach. The Taoist approach works with the energy body throughout the day and emphasizes qigong a lot more which is also more conducive to conscious dreaming. You don't need to wake up feeling punch drunk at 2:30 or 5:30 a.m. to write half a dozen boring dream journals, perform 500 different reality checks a day or work on ridiculous exercises like prospective memory. Forget about that. If the western psychological B.S. is going to be your main approach of becoming a proficient and skilled lucid dreamer you will find yourself very disappointed in the end. Again, the western techniques are very varying and super limiting. Very mentally taxing with very little reward for ALL your hard work and effort.

 

If you're looking for sources I suggest getting anything put out by Tibetan or taoist dream practitioners. I think Tenzin Wangyal Rinponche gives courses online. On the taoist side I think Juan Li is the guy you wanna go to. Juan makes himself a little bit difficult to reach unfortunately. Michael Winn sells an audio course. Expensive and also frustrating because it's so long and disorganized and comes with so much filler. If you have the patience his can work also.

 

The Attention Revolution by Alan Wallace emphasizes meditations such as shamatha and vippashyana. Both forms of meditation are firmly grounded in spiritual practices and very useful for conscious dreaming because they build concentration and mindful awareness. I personally think that zen style meditations are more practical because you simultaneously build both concentration and mindfulness in a balanced manner. It's also useful for learning to suspend your thoughts and controlling the monkey mind. Ironically the zen schools could care less about conscious dreaming.

Edited November 3, 2015 by Oneironaut

[doc benway]

I think Tenzin Wangyal Rinponche gives courses online. 

He does at the glidewing link above.

I think the next course is in the Spring.

It's a very good course.

[Oneironaut]

He does at the glidewing link above.

I think the next course is in the Spring.

It's a very good course.

 

Does he also teach yoga nidra? Dream yoga and yoga nidra go hand in hand beautifully. I'm making the taoist dream techniques my primary framework to build this practice on. I personally find it to be more effortless and deeply covers more ground with less work. I'm also more drawn to working with the tanden/dantian system than the chakra system. Even though the taoist dream practice is a very complete system I'm still very interested in seeing how the hindus and buddhists do their dreamwork just so I can compare and perhaps learn something new that I may be able to incorporate. I think that the Buddhists put a heavy emphasis on dream practice specifically for the purpose of being able to recognize the state of death. Taoists may have a completely different approach like immortality and merging with the macrocosmos (sun, earth, moon, stars etc). Taoists may also be more forgiving (perhaps even encourage) on using dream practices for pleasure, experiences, adventures, sources of inspiration and entertainment. The dzogchen guys look down on it and find it to be a distraction. I could be wrong on these generalizations. At the end of the day it's about doubling your life.

 

Immortals do not sleep. How can something that is conscious in the sleep and dream state be unconscious? The ones who go through their sleep and dream life unconscious are those who are asleep and unaware (as if in a trance) in their "waking" lives. This reminds me of Shakyamuni when he was asked if he was a spirit, god or a man and his response was "I am awake". It's the same with conscious dreaming. If you are truly awakened in your waking life then you will bring that awareness with you into the energetic dream space. You also bring more of that awareness of the dream space with you back into your waking life. Really amazing how this works. 

Edited November 3, 2015 by Oneironaut

[doc benway]

Does he also teach yoga nidra?

Yes, it's covered superficially in his book.

He plans to offer a 2 week retreat on it next summer in Virginia, USA

 

 

I think that the Buddhists put a heavy emphasis on dream practice specifically for the purpose of being able to recognize the state of death. Taoists may have a completely different approach like immortality and merging with the macrocosmos (sun, earth, moon, stars etc).

Not sure these two are all that much different...

[thelerner]

I like my Lucid dreaming info with a heavy dose of the esoteric.  Still there are many 'straight' scientific resources.  A good one is http://school.obe4u.com/  Free book downloads too. 

 

Go deep enough (I have not) and you may need advice of ye olde masters. 

[seekingbuddha]

Oneiornaut,

Many threads have discussed this topic. But, you are the first one I have seen in this forum, who has the right understanding on this topic. The westerners (including high teachers like Alan Wallace) teach these as if they are separate from the foundation you need to bring this to fruitful results. I know what Alan Wallace teaches in his courses, and I can say he makes it sound simple. Leave alone the books written by westerners, which show the misunderstanding that is spreading in the west about these esoteric practices of yogis. The level of misunderstanding that permeates the internet is amusing to say the least.

 

I do not think different religions have different takes on this; It is more like we, in modern society, have different takes on different religions. All of spirituality is unified, all of it points to the same truth in various ways, all practices lead to the same results, when done properly. People are focusing on wrong foundations.

Edited November 4, 2015 by seekingbuddha

[DreamBliss]

Oneironaut

 

I can not formulate a proper response to what you have said at this time. I can say only this much...

 

I am tired of this heavy-handed approach used by almost every follower of every religion I have encountered. The hammer that says, "You have to do it this way or you will fail." With all due respect to those who enjoy or practice it, I do not need chanting, Tibetan singing bowls, hours of sitting on my fucking knees, incense, a belief in karma and reincarnation, the constant surveillance of every part of my body and all this other bullshit to lucid dream.

 

I know this because my first lucid dream happened while I was still a Christian, before I started meditating or even opening my mind to other belief systems, simply by reading Mark McElroy's book. That is all I needed, that is all it took.

 

Now maybe it can be argued I had some natural propensity for lucid dreaming that I since lost because of my own fear. It could also be argued that I do not have any such propensity, as lucid dreaming became harder for me, not easier, since leaving the Christian faith and beginning practices such as meditation. I do not know what the truth may be here so I do not claim to know.

 

What I do know, for certain, is that I didn't need any esoteric practices to get started, and what I came into it, that was the first time I ever heard about it. I didn't know anything at all about it beforehand, at least under the name lucid dreaming, although I had recorded my dreams in times past.

 

If you are a Buddhist or adopting Buddhist practices, then I would advise you learn how to be considerate, gentle and loving. When I first read these words you wrote earlier today, already very depressed, it was like I was already beaten down then you came by and kicked me in the balls. Repeatedly. These are not the actions or words of any Buddhist monk to my knowledge, although as I have limited knowledge, I could be mistaken.

 

I can accept that the Tibetans figured out a way to apply Buddhst practices, including meditation and lucid dreaming, to their own unique culture. It has since developed as a separate branch of the same tree. But if one culture can take these teachings and apply them in a way that speaks to them and works with them, then another culture can too.

 

We do not need Americans sittings in Tibetan Buddhist temples chanting and doing everything else I stated above. We need to grow an American culture branch of these practices. There is absolutely no need for all the mumbo-jumbo and religious overtones of Tibetan Buddhism. We have to meet people where they are, not where we want them to be, and certainly not where we insist they be.

 

So let's figure out a way to bring the core, foundational material into American culture. Let's make this work for people who do not want to sit for hours on end meditating, who, in fact, derive little if any benefit from meditation. Let's throw out the psychological mumbo-jumbo too. I agree with you about that.

 

Let's distill this down to its essence, so anyone, anywhere in the world, can use it and easily as well as effortlessly lucid dream. Instead of trying to conform others to whatever we want, lets love and accept them as they are and work with them from there.

 

This is the sort of information and materials I am looking for in this thread. You can leave your esoteric and religious hammers at the door. There will be no conformity or conversion here.

 

I have tried to put this as plainly, politely and simply as possible. If I have failed please accept my apologies. Please note I am not a monk, and have no monk-like disposition. I spent 10 days being, essentially, brainwashed during a Vipassana Meditation "retreat." I have had my fill of that shit for the remainder of this year, at least.

 

FYI I have B Alan Wallace's, "Dreaming Yourself Awake" and have started to read it. So while I may not necessarily agree with what you have said, I will read and apply the teachings of this book, coming to see in my own experience how this approach works for me. I am doing that much at least.

 

I can not say I appreciate what you have said. But I do appreciate that you took the time to post and share knowledge. Thank you for that.

 

seekingbuddha

 

If you would like to clear up any of my misunderstandings, I am listening, I will be open and receptive, at least initially.

 

Edited November 4, 2015 by DreamBliss

[RigdzinTrinley]

Shanti Baba

 

Shanti - what happened to you to be that worked up about a living lineage that is very powerful and beautiful in the way it is transmitted?

 

-----------

 

my humble opinion on indo tibetan buddhism coming to the west? We should take some more time to create our own version of it, yes I know there are people like whats his name? Ethan Nichtern or something who talks about AMERICAN BUDDHISM - oh come on...

 

then we have steve O Bachelor who does is atheist dharma thing - whatever that might be?

 

who else wait.... oh yes the mindfulness movement - no theory no real defined goal just pure method... lets see where that is going? maybe to very very well adapted slaves of corperations?

 

what else is on the menu?

 

probably thousands of self proclaimed western dharma teachers - "who got it" and know how to free it of all cultural trappings... ya maybe possible... maybe

 

oh yes and Ken Wilber - who proclaimed the what? fourth turning of the wheel - but actually meant the 4th yana? didn't get his definitiaons of term right on that one...

 

 

to summarize - lets study that stuff a little bit longer (5 generations maybe?) till we make our own system out of it - I think that would be fair, the indo tibetan tradition of buddhism is soooooo big and deep and vast, I feel we should give it some more time to "sink in"

 

I'm not a traditionalist - I know indo tibetan dharma will transform, it has too

 

but I'm no friend of pre mature attempts to create western dharma - how absurd anyway to take "eastern" dharma and make it into "western" dharma... I feel the dharma is what needs to be understood no? not what is eastern dharma in relation to western dharma.

 

why try to make knots into the sky?

 

EDIT: I hope you don't see me as yet another Buddhist kicking strangers randomly in the balls - but you know I don't have a monk like disposition like you, doesn't mean I don't hear you brother and that I try to ballkick anybody

 

I do feel I know part of your outrage - I am guessing here, I have friends who went through similar outrages about the buddhist path (also I had a solid 6month of "F&/% THIS!" after starting more serious practice - vajra neurosis a spot on term by Chogyam Trungpa). I do hope that you can take this opportunity (the outrage) to see taht you are not the clouds but the sky

 

I also hope that you will learn from this outrage and grow in experience and understanding of the human condition

 

I also hope that you see that spiritual practice is about awakening to the whole thing - no matter what!

 

I also hope you can see that its not about solving your problems - it is much deeper work then that - it is about fundamental anxiety - "am I real?"

 

I also hope you can see it like the Zen people - that what you experience right now is "great Doubt"

 

is there enlightenment?

 

are there enlightened people?

 

was the buddha a deceptive being?

 

I hope that you can go through this storm of the great doubt to understand that "great Doubt" is the beginning of sanity and healing

Edited November 4, 2015 by RigdzinTrinley

[RigdzinTrinley]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chapel_perilous

 

http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/frr/frr16.htm

Edited November 4, 2015 by RigdzinTrinley

[DreamBliss]

Just to be clear I am not proposing a hasty anything.

 

All I am proposing for now  is KISS - Keep It Simple Stupid (or Silly or Shithead, depending on your mood.)

 

I am sooo sick and frikkin' tired of feeling like this:

Edited November 4, 2015 by DreamBliss

[Michael Sternbach]

All I am proposing for now  is KISS - Keep It Simple Stupid (or Silly or Shithead, depending on your mood.)

 

I prefer Keep It Sweet and Simple.

 

Because keeping things simple is not a sign of stupidity.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Michael Sternbach

[Junko]

Hi DB,I have a question. What do you think dreams are for, generally speaking.

[Michael Sternbach]

I know this because my first lucid dream happened while I was still a Christian, before I started meditating or even opening my mind to other belief systems, simply by reading Mark McElroy's book. That is all I needed, that is all it took.

 

All I needed to have a lucid dream last night was reading this thread! It was one of my rare space dreams. Junko and I were in a passenger space ship with a warp drive. Arriving on another planet, we just materialized on the surface, seeing a somehow oriental looking city in front and below us. I would call it a lucid dream because all the time I felt that I was in a movie.

[Oneironaut]

DreamBliss, 

 

I sincerely apologize for coming off so aggressively. Allow me the chance to explain that I had no intention of coming off as some malicious know-it-all or a self righteous bigot. I'll leave that corrosive attitude and manner of thinking to the western "rational" thinkers. Also, please consider the fact that hammering a belief system, whether political, philosophical or religious, is something I've always been vehemently against and my stance here is no exception. I am not here to forcefully convert anyone into anything and it's likely that you've misjudged my brutal honestly as "hammering down" my beliefs on you. I personally do not believe in Tibetan or Hindu deities and neither am I a fan of chanting or Tibetan singing bowls. Incense however (especially the Japanese kind) can be really fun and I use them to derive a bit of sensory pleasure and relaxation in my free time. That of course is a personal choice and I honestly don't see how it's possible to force something unto you that I don't practice or believe in the first place. Meditation and dream practice on the other hand is something that I have been practicing (on and off) for several years and I’m only trying to make the point that the two are inseparable.

 

If you read The Tibetan Yoga's of Dream and Sleep by Tenzin Wangyal Rinponche he clearly states that ANYONE regardless of faith is able to use the teachings in his book. He also did mention one did not have to believe in Tibetan deities in order for the techniques to work and that it's best to receive oral transmission on the topic. In the book Yoga Nidra by Swami Satyananda Saraswati it was clearly stated that anyone of any background can make use of yoga nidra. Michael Winn clearly stated in his audio course (after a brief talk about Asclepius and the Greek tradition of using dreams) that Christians would feel right at home in his course. I don't see how any of this is forcing one's beliefs unto others. In the book Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming by Stephen LaBerge it's sternly stated as FACT that out of body experiences are themselves lucid dreams and considering them to be anything more than that is just metaphysical baggage. LaBerge and the entire circus of western dream researchers hold their scientific dream theories as the holy grail of truth and their findings are to be unquestioned. Isn't this the "hammering in" that you were trying to avoid? 

 

I've stated earlier that conscious dreaming CANNOT be separated from their religious or esoteric origins and I maintain that. In all their kindness we have Buddhist, Hindu and Taoist teachers revealing their techniques to us and offering the flexibility to remove all kinds of cultural practices, deity worship and rituals and only adhering to what works. Remember that this was all derived from meditative practices and spirituality so no matter how much you try to eliminate or modify those components it's ALWAYS going to retain that spiritual element from which it originated from whether we like it or not. After all conscious dreaming IS a form of meditation. It’s just a different form of meditation than daytime meditations where you have a sense of stability because you retain your “woken up” ego state. When you go to sleep that “woken up” ego state has no stable foundation and it dissolves into that state of blackness and nothingness that we call sleep and sleeping is not meditation. These spiritual teachings are being handed to us (free of dogma, rituals and the worship of deities) to be made our own even though they are typically taught within the framework of their cultural and esoteric origins. No one is trying to convert you and when you take and apply what works for you it doesn’t make it any less of a spiritual practice from which these teachings originate from.

 

I personally prefer the conscious dreaming framework offered by the Taoists as it boils everything down to their core essence. They don’t worship deities but view them (the deities) as crystallized chi. The Taoists prefer to tap into these energies instead and emphasize working with the energy body through qigong and cultivating awareness through lucid living. Lucid living is more important than lucid dreaming yet makes conscious dreaming a natural part of your life. The Tibetans on the other hand have the best methods to prime your psychology specifically for conscious dreaming while the western stuff is a watered down version of Tibetan foundational practices and is more involved with data, theory and more information oriented. You can go on and on with data and theory forever and really not get anywhere. Conscious dreaming is NOT about how much you know it’s about skill. If you don’t think chi/ki exists then that’s fine. In that case the Taoist methods may not be for you so try looking at the Tibetan foundational practices and those will take you very far.

 

I had my first lucid dreams when I was 7 – 11 years old. They were infrequent and all very short and I would suddenly wake up seconds after realizing I was in a dream. These days I have them on random and very isolated occasions when I have no intent on having them in the first place. I have years of personal experience in the western approach to lucid dreaming. I started off with the methods proposed by Stephen LaBerge and to be honest that approach is far from keeping it simple. I’m not going to point all the blame onto him as it seems the Tibetan approach requires a great deal of diligence and determination (like spending many weeks inside a dark cave and hours of complex visualizations and meditations) and the western approach is modeled after the Tibetans but modified specifically for westerners and their lifestyles. The western approach however takes an already complex system and modifies it to make it unnecessarily complex in other ways by introducing all this unnecessary theory and data. In the end they are just taking eastern esoteric practices that they can more or less prove to work and adding a “scientific and authoritative” spin to it. The western approach is distilled and “easier” than it’s Tibetan parent but it’s also very demanding, limiting and results are not very consistent.

 

I understand how someone who is looking forward to becoming a conscious dreamer can get deeply depressed and melancholic when confronted with what I’ve said earlier. Conscious dreaming is one of the most ecstatic, blissful, exhilarating (and equally peaceful), hyper sensory (can be more real than life itself), heavenly experiences one can have in their lives. Your capacity for love and pleasures of the senses is infinitely expanded. Your vision is pristine beyond what you ever thought possible, colors become much more vibrant and alive, you have true clarity of mind and you discover true freedom. It’s extremely addicting and words alone will never do it any justice. It’s something that must be experienced to fully come to terms with the very limited experiences I’m sharing. The fact remains however that this will always remain a spiritual practice at it's core and it will take work consisting of meditation, priming your psychology and energy work. Hopefully you’re willing to put in some work in at least the first two as these will build a firm foundation. In the western methods you'll be at the mercy of psychological tricks to induce these states of consciousness with no guarantee of consistent success.

 

If you don't like traditional meditation try the works of Charlotte Selver and please show some respect for the Tibetans and the dream teachings/techniques for which they were kind enough to share with the world. We can strip the esoteric, cultural and religious origins from the dream teachings all we want to match our own but we'll be forever indebted to them even though they'll never ask for anything in return.

Edited November 5, 2015 by Oneironaut

[Oneironaut]

Another thing DreamBliss,

 

If you’re going to consider the western approach to this practice you’re going to have a ton of work and a ton of reading to do. I been on that path before so I can point you in the right direction. Here are the sources you’ll likely need.

 

To build a firm foundation (for western standards) begin with these two books:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Exploring-World-Dreaming-Stephen-LaBerge/dp/034537410X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1446692709&sr=8-1&keywords=lucid+dreamin

 

http://www.amazon.com/Advanced-Lucid-Dreaming-Power-Supplements/dp/1430305428/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1446692732&sr=8-1&keywords=advanced+lucid+dreaming

 

Eventually you’ll need to work with supplements as with the more scientific approach your brain and body chemistry won’t always work in conjunction with your desire to have lucid dreams. There are even times where your dreams will be very fuzzy but supplementation would help to fix that as well as to prolong the dreams themselves. These substances are mostly synthetic and the ones I’ve found to work are choline bitartrate and piracetam. I used those back in college as part of my nootropics stack and they gave me lucid dreams on occasion without even intending on having them. I know another popular one is galantamine however I cannot comment on it as I’ve never used it before. There are also natural herbs that have been used by shamans in indigenous American communities in Brazil such as yerbamate. Shamans in indigenous American communities in the Dominican Republic used dimethlytryptamine (highly illegal substance) to induce out of body experiences and for explorations on the “other side”.

 

Stephen LaBerge’s book was written a long while back and has never been updated. The up to date version of his methods are in this book:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Are-You-Dreaming-Exploring-Comprehensive/dp/0957497709/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&qid=1446693330&sr=8-10&keywords=lucid+dreaming

 

I’m also aware that you don’t like meditation but if you’re truly serious about this practice then you would set aside an hour of quiet time to still yourself. I know it’s difficult especially in the beginning. It’s also best to find yourself a teacher but for now here are some books that may help you:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Real-Happiness-Meditation-28-Day-Program/dp/0761159258/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1446692483&sr=8-1&keywords=sharon+meditation

 

http://www.amazon.com/Dreaming-Yourself-Awake-Tibetan-Transformation/dp/159030957X/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1446693484&sr=8-4&keywords=alan+wallace

 

http://www.amazon.com/Attention-Revolution-Unlocking-Power-Focused/dp/0861712765/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1446693484&sr=8-1&keywords=alan+wallace

 

http://www.amazon.com/Stilling-Mind-Shamatha-Teachings-Lingpas/dp/0861716906/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1446693484&sr=8-5&keywords=alan+wallace

 

Shamatha requires such a great deal of work. It’s not for the feint of heart. I’ve never done it but the amount of dedication truly scared me off and it’s definitely not for westerners. Insight meditation may be all you need but if it really drives you insane then try sensory awareness:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Reclaiming-Vitality-Presence-Awareness-Practice/dp/1556436416/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1446691360&sr=8-1&keywords=sensory+awareness

 

If you don’t want to read then try the course below:

 

http://snoozon.com/lucid-dreaming-online-course

 

In the end you’ll probably have to examine all these sources and figure out what works best for you. Instead of spending all that money, accumulating all this knowledge (that won’t translate into lucid dreaming skills) and using up your will power trying an endless array of techniques that may or may not work you should just try and keep things simple. If I were to go back in time and be my own older brother and point myself in the right direction here’s what I would recommend to myself today:

 

1)   The snoozon online course

2)   Sensory awareness (the book and the retreat)

 

That’s it! You even have a forum with the online course where you’ll be able to get all the information you need. Just be careful with what you read because if someone tells you something isn’t possible and if they’re wrong then it just becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. Sensory awareness on the other hand is a somatic and meditative approach to mindfulness without the strict formality you'll find in zen. Another thing you want to be careful with is putting all your faith on LaBerge's techniques (or anyone else really) as if they're the written word of some supreme being and not having any faith in yourself. I've been there before. 

 

 

 

So let's figure out a way to bring the core, foundational material into American culture. Let's make this work for people who do not want to sit for hours on end meditating, who, in fact, derive little if any benefit from meditation. Let's throw out the psychological mumbo-jumbo too. I agree with you about that.

 

Let's distill this down to its essence, so anyone, anywhere in the world, can use it and easily as well as effortlessly lucid dream.

 

The sources I've provided is the best you're going to get when it comes to U.S. culture. When I think about U.S. culture I already see the overwhelming majority of people complaining about how it's too much work or they don't want to meditate. I don't mean to sound rude or as if I intend on being sarcastic but most folks would rather invent a pill or pop on a dream mask before bedtime to "effortlessly" lucid dream than to meditate and cultivate awareness throughout the day. Even setting their intentions would be too much work. I've studied the western methods enough to see how it's nothing more than a cheap watered down version of Tibetan dream yoga. Tibetan dream yoga works and is incredibly powerful but it's better suited for those who are truly devoted to that path. The way Tenzin Wangyal Rinponche presents it perhaps makes conscious dreaming achievable for most westerners who attempt it. I've got enough exposure to the Taoist methods to see how it already boils down what makes conscious dreaming work to it's core essence and on top of that they're just powerhouses of energy. They also work it down to the energetic level. The Taoist methods take work to learn but it's also the most effortless. Bruce Lee once said something along the lines of "Learn technique, apply technique, master technique, forget technique". This is where you want to get to. It's wu wei (the action of non action) at work.

 

Again, I'm not trying to convert you but I am sharing my personal experience. I'm also not an authority (or even a monk for that matter) but a student. I still have a lot to learn and I'm grateful for being shown an authentic path that doesn't rely on the illegitimate teachings by those here in the west who had to go to Tibet to learn THEIR teachings, THEIR techniques and abide by THEIR religion and THEIR culture to swing back west and act like they know these spiritual practices better than the Tibetans themselves. These self proclaimed "experts" and "authorities" here in the west are arrogant beyond belief and it's the furthest thing from intelligence. 

Edited November 5, 2015 by Oneironaut