Conscious or Lucid Dreaming or Dream Yoga - Any Non-esoteric Resources?

[DreamBliss]

Hi DB,I have a question. What do you think dreams are for, generally speaking.

 

Ultimately it depends on the individual. Dreams will be for whatever you decide they will be.

 

For me dreams can be for anything, but I am choosing to use them, in the form of lucid dreams, for adventure, experimentation,  exploration, fun, invention, learning and practice.

 

I think the default state of dreams are as messengers which tell you things you need to know.

[DreamBliss]

Oneironaut

Thank you for the clarification. I think I have to clear some things up too...

 

I did not mean to come off as disrespectful to Buddhist/Tibetan Buddhist/Taoist belief systems. If I did I apologize, to you and anyone else concerned.

 

Understand that I was a Christian for over 20 years, as I have said many, many times by now. I am sure someone reading this is tired of my saying it. Like I have this huge battle scar and I like t rip my shirt off to show it to everyone who passes by. That is not my intention. I just want you to get that I have had enough of religion to last the rest of this lifetime, OK?

 

I have no objection to spiritual practices and leaving them connected with lucid dreaming if they work best connected to each other. I'll assume you know what you are talking about and they are.

 

I just want to avoid ceremonies, chanting, long hours of sitting on my knees, etc. What I am thinking of as complicated and unnecessary additions. Much of which is what I think of as esoteric. I have a book called, "Foundation of Magical Practice 1" or something like that by a Josephine... Can't remember the last name. I have also read stuff by Meg Blackburn Losey. The whole draw a pattern on the ground, face in a certain direction, use these hand gestures, etc. It just doesn't fit me, it's the same for me with the usual Buddhist temple practices.

 

To be clear I am no avid fan of any corrupted Westernized version of anything either. I don't need what I have called mumbo-jumbo in any form. So if LaBerge is bad, I will read the books, figure it it for myself, and be done with that methodology. Right now I am working through B Alan Wallace's book as I said.

 

I just don't think lucid dreaming should be so hard to initiate and master. OK? I think the process of training yourself to get into and sustain a lucid dream should be easy. Not easy as in free of work. Easy as in free of complications. I don't mind hard work, doing whatever practices are truly needed for me.

 

Also I am not against meditation, I just have failed to see any obvious gain from doing it the last few years, a big enough gain to make it worthwhile to continue. Of course maybe meditation is working more subtly. It's not like I have keep any before and after records.

 

I hope that clears things up. To summarize, hard work is OK but strain is not. Spiritual is OK but esoteric is not. No preference of one training over any other, avoiding religion as much as possible.

 

Thank you for all the links! I own both of LaBerge's books, I am reading B Alan Wallace's Lucid Dream book, and I have a hold on his Shamatha book. I was also able to place a hold on Susan's Happiness book/CD. I have saved the links to the rest.

 

As far as nootropics I am investigating Lion's Mane to start with as I have an affinity with mushrooms. Then Huperzine-A and Bacopa Monnieri. Guayusa tea before bed for lucid dreaming.

 

As far as what my culture has labeled illegal, fuck what they think! Only I have the right to say what goes into my body! If I had a source I would get it and use it. Acid, peyote, shrooms, ayahuasca and DMT to start with. But I have no such source, probably for the best for now.

 

Michael

Sounds like an awesome dream man!

Edited November 5, 2015 by DreamBliss

[taoguy]

Well, I agree with you that being bound to a religion and its rites is a frustrating thing and it also does not sit well with me. I don't follow rules simply because they are imposed on me, but I adopt the rules when... (1) The consequences are too dire for me to go against or (2) the rules make perfect logical sense or (3) I'm not going against the rules simply because of emotional patterns.

 

For rituals, there are always some kind of symbolism behind them... But trying to figure them out doesn't sit right with me either.

 

I find meditation the most natural... In fact before I even realized it was meditation or even knew of religion, I did it when I was a kid without anyone teaching it. All you do is explore your own mind and increase the scope of sensitivity/awareness. And when I simply watch what goes on naturally in my own mind... whether physical sensations or mental perceptions, then I go into a naturally meditative state. 

 

I find that the basis behind some of what they teach in the lucid dream techniques, such as the "new agey" wake-induced lucid dream (WILD) - adapted from Tibetan dream yoga, where you just slip yourself into a lucid dream after getting into a meditative state and maintaining lucidity as we go into a sleep cycle. It's simple, but not easy to do...

[Junko]

Ultimately it depends on the individual. Dreams will be for whatever you decide they will be.

 

For me dreams can be for anything, but I am choosing to use them, in the form of lucid dreams, for adventure, experimentation,  exploration, fun, invention, learning and practice.

 

I think the default state of dreams are as messengers which tell you things you need to know.

To me, dreams are there for balancing my psychological state.

[Oneironaut]

Meditating/visualizing yourself into a dream is a very difficult task. Tenzin Wagnyal Rinpoche addresses the issues newcomers have and seems to guide you by the hands in his book. I haven't really had the chance to put that part of his material to work as of yet as I'm really devoted to mastering the Taoist dreaming techniques at the time of this writing.

 

I don't want to give off the wrong impression and make everyone think that I'm anti-science or anti scientific research. I'm just not a fan of sacrificing the cultivation of a skill set to effortless mastery and perfection for the sake of introducing endless data and theory. In the end all this does is leave you with all this knowledge that you can't really put to use. I'll use myself as an example and I've spoken out against this on a separate post. This is the exact same reason I left healing tao and healing tao doesn't (and likely never will) fit the definition of a science by scientific standards. I'm also not very fond of the arrogance and all the misleading that goes on when they hijack spiritual practices. In my opinion they're almost as bad as those frauds in the metaphysical community (these are the absolute worse) who prey on desperate people for very large sums of money or develop cults.

 

I love science but most of the theory and data can be saved for later in cases like these where SKILL is what you should be working on first. Afterwards you can learn the theory and data if you choose and connect with the information much more deeply and with true understanding. I feel the exact same way about the esoteric material. I'm considered the scientific/analytical type in the offline world and no one in the real world could ever imagine that I would be into qigong,lucid dreaming or meditation as I keep my spiritual life PRIVATE. I guess you could say I was fortunate enough to have have spiritual experiences which has allowed me to keep an opened mind.

 

DreamBliss, I'm with you on developing a lucid dreaming form which is accessible to everyone. At the very least to everyone on this forum. Something that actually WORKS the way we envision it should and won't cost anyone a dime other then their desire to learn it. Maybe we could develop a style of qigong that works in tandem with this. We'll have to see what happens but there isn't any reason for anyone here NOT to experience these energetic planes.

[DreamBliss]

For the record I am neither a monk or a scientist.

 

 

The only label that you might be able to stick on me is, "academic."

 

I was thinking about this earlier today. I would be perfectly happy in some ancient library somewhere, surrounded by ancient books and scrolls. Maybe somewhere like Oxford with a lot of beautiful architecture, wood paneling and leather chairs. The occasional class I could take to trade in the intellectual knowledge for experiential knowing.

 

I respect your point of view Oneironaut. I will not disregard what you have shared here. I have saved this thread and all links. I just want you to know that the sharing is appreciated, even if I may be up in arms over some of the content.

 

You know, there is no reason for me to be upset. Maybe some if not most people need things the way you have detailed. But there are always exceptions, and I am coming to understand that maybe I am one of those. It seems like a lot of the time what works for everyone else barely works (if it works at all) for me. But that's OK. I will follow the paths others have cut, stepping off these to hack my own way through where needed.

 

Eventually all these paths through the spiritual wilderness reach the same destination. Ultimately everyone has to step into the jungle to find their own way if they are to grow and mature.

 

OK, I'm rambling now, so I will be quiet for a while...

Edited November 6, 2015 by DreamBliss

[Andrei]

The techniques have minor importance, what is really important is the chemistry of the brain and how to control that.

This book has it all you need to know.

http://www.cortexel.us/awesome/uppers/Advanced_Lucid_Dreaming-The_Power_of_Supplements.pdf

[Oneironaut]

The techniques have minor importance, what is really important is the chemistry of the brain and how to control that.This book has it all you need to know.http://www.cortexel.us/awesome/uppers/Advanced_Lucid_Dreaming-The_Power_of_Supplements.pdf

Let us know with all sincerity how that approach works out for you. Good luck.