Nothingness

[Michael Sternbach]

and from the guy that knows nothing about Daoism    

 

That's all you need to know about it.

[Michael Sternbach]

The vacuum still contains space and time. However, true Nothingness supposedly existed before the Big Bang.

[Marblehead]

Anything is possible MH...

I love your optimism but don't necessarily agree with you.

[Marblehead]

The vacuum still contains space and time. However, true Nothingness supposedly existed before the Big Bang.

I have been through that discussion with someone much more knowledgeable than I on the subject.

 

I do use the term "Absolute Nothingness".  This absence can be said to be only external to the universe.  But this is undefined and actually undefinable.

 

This requires me to return to arguing against the concept of "emptiness".

 

Yes, I do understand the Buddhist concept of emptiness.  Empty of eternal existence.  This can be understood simply by observing nature.  No things last forever because the universe, Tao, is dynamic and in constant change.

 

But my coffee cup is empty right now so I must get it refilled.

[3bob]

Umm MH I'd suggest not mixing up or using the term "Tao" from Taoism of the TTC with constant change as some Buddhists might mistakenly do - if that is what you are doing?  (they can make up or use another word that meets their own fancy)   For there is TTC Chapter 25 and several other directly along the lines of: "Standing alone without change"

Edited November 5, 2015 by 3bob

[Michael Sternbach]

The explicit Dao is ever changing. The implicit Dao is ever without change.

[3bob]

wrong on both counts Michael, unless you are going by your own made up version.

[Marblehead]

Umm MH I'd suggest not mixing up or using the term "Tao" from Taoism of the TTC with constant change as some Buddhists might mistakenly do - if that is what you are doing?  (they can make up or use another word that meets their own fancy)   For there is TTC Chapter 25 and several other directly along the lines of: "Standing alone without change"

Yes, that is a difficult concept to deal with in Taoism.  We have spoken to this before.

 

What got me started with the dynamics (changes) of Tao was Wayne Wang's TTC translation titled "Dynamic Tao".

 

There is change but Tao is always complete.  Tao existed prior to any manifestations so there is nothing for Tao to change into or from.  I still insist that Tao existed before (The Great) One.

 

I fear not my Buddhist friends.  They can always ask me for clarification if they wish to do so.

[Marblehead]

The explicit Dao is ever changing. The implicit Dao is ever without change.

Well, that was easy.  I'm not sure I understand but it sure does sound easy.

[Brian]

I am reminded of the quote commonly attributed to Niels Bohr -- "Don't tell God what to do."

 

Changing Tao vs. unchanging Tao is just another example of a duality to be collapsed.

[Marblehead]

Logically that is acceptable.  Tao is undefinable.  How could we ever know if it changes or not?

[ilumairen]

I love your optimism but don't necessarily agree with you.

 

Anything is possible refers to the fact that we are discussing what we can't know. I'm optimistic that we're all wrong to some degree.

 

 

Hope you're having a good day MH.

[Marblehead]

Anything is possible refers to the fact that we are discussing what we can't know. I'm optimistic that we're all wrong to some degree.

I have no fear of being wrong.  It's up to the accuser to prove me such though.

 

And yes, when the talk about metaphysical concepts what we know is very limited or perhaps even non-existent.

 

Hope you're having a good day MH.

Thanks.  Good day so far.  I worked out at the ponds this morning.  Got my planned task accomplished just when it started getting too hot to be working outside any more.  It's presently 94F degrees.

 

May you have a good day as well.

[Silent Answers]

Of course, it could be that science doesn't know as much about the effects of gravity as we think it does.

Bingo. Dark matter was invented to explain the way stars on the outer edge of a galaxy dont follow the (human) laws of gravity (which says they should move at a different rate). There is no dark matter, we just don't understand how galaxy spin works (as well as most everything else in the cosmos).

[ilumairen]

Bingo. Dark matter was invented to explain the way stars on the outer edge of a galaxy dont follow the (human) laws of gravity (which says they should move at a different rate). There is no dark matter, we just don't understand how galaxy spin works (as well as most everything else in the cosmos).

 

Small quibble - dark matter is a misnomer, and not a thing that was invented. We don't know 'what', so we call it dark. I like that.

[ilumairen]

I have no fear of being wrong.  It's up to the accuser to prove me such though.

 

And yes, when the talk about metaphysical concepts what we know is very limited or perhaps even non-existent.

 

 

You have no fear of being wrong, and I have no desire to prove you wrong. Hell, I don't even have a desire to defend my own whimsical thought. These are things that don't really matter.

 

 

Thanks.  Good day so far.  I worked out at the ponds this morning.  Got my planned task accomplished just when it started getting too hot to be working outside any more.  It's presently 94F degrees.

 

May you have a good day as well.

 

Nice. Currently I'm being cuddled by the puppies. It's nice too.

[Michael Sternbach]

Small quibble - dark matter is a misnomer, and not a thing that was invented. We don't know 'what', so we call it dark. I like that.

 

Right. We could as well call it the 'what matter'; or 'what's the matter'.

[Michael Sternbach]

Well, that was easy.  I'm not sure I understand but it sure does sound easy.

 

So let me elaborate a little. Nothingness or Zero is the base of the manifest world which it carries within as a potential. But as such, it is without change - as in it, there is no interaction.

 

From Zero (or Wu chi), nothing can come forth but a positive and an equal negative (Tai chi: Yin and Yang).

 

As an aside, there is a cosmological theory that all the electromagnetism and gravitation in the universe are exactly of the same magnitude, but since one is expansive and the other contractive, they cancel each other out. Which would help explain the creation of everything ex nihilo. But back to metaphysics...

 

As the two forces start interacting, playing, dancing with each other - ever seeking a state equilibrum and unification as though following an ancient memory - change happens. In the big picture, they always do balance each other. Therein lies the eternal peace of the Dao in manifestation.

[Silent Answers]

Small quibble - dark matter is a misnomer, and not a thing that was invented. We don't know 'what', so we call it dark. I like that.

It's not quite that simple, and has bigger implications because we smudge the science to conform with incorrect ideas. It's this supposed dark matter which holds the universe together, because the gravity of physical matter we *can* see is too weak to do it alone. They're just trying to find something to fill the cracks in an incorrect theory. That means pulling more gravity out of thin air. Soon enough they'll have to admit that gravity is not the driving force of the cosmos, it's a side-effect. Until then, theres funding to be had.

 

Anyway, semantics.. I assume we've gone off topic from the original point you were making with dark matter.

[ilumairen]

It's not quite that simple,

 

It normally isn't, and yet, for me it is.

 

 

and has bigger implications because we smudge the science to conform with incorrect ideas. It's this supposed dark matter which holds the universe together, because the gravity of physical matter we *can* see is too weak to do it alone. They're just trying to find something to fill the cracks in an incorrect theory. That means pulling more gravity out of thin air. Soon enough they'll have to admit that gravity is not the driving force of the cosmos, it's a side-effect. Until then, theres funding to be had.

 

 

I like the not knowing. I like that the thinking minds admit to not knowing. For me, there is something comforting in the mystery of it.

 

Anyway, semantics.. I assume we've gone off topic from the original point you were making with dark matter.

 

I was sitting outside when I read what I was responding to. I looked up at the night sky, and felt contentment with nothingness being the same type of unknown as dark matter... there really wasn't a point - just that feeling of contentment and a whimsical thought that made me smile. I shared the thought for others to make of it what they will. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. It's nice to read different perspectives sometimes.

[ilumairen]

So let me elaborate a little. Nothingness or Zero is the base of the manifest world which it carries within as a potential. But as such, it is without change - as in it, there is no interaction.

 

From Zero (or Wu chi), nothing can come forth but a positive and an equal negative (Tai chi: Yin and Yang).

 

As an aside, there is a cosmological theory that all the electromagnetism and gravitation in the universe are exactly of the same magnitude, but since one is expansive and the other contractive, they cancel each other out. Which would help explain the creation of everything ex nihilo. But back to metaphysics...

 

As the two forces start interacting, playing, dancing with each other - ever seeking a state equilibrum and unification as though following an ancient memory - change happens. In the big picture, they always do balance each other. Therein lies the eternal peace of the Dao in manifestation.

 

Another small quibble - things weren't perfectly balanced. Anti-matter and matter would have cancelled each other out had there been perfect balance. There was the smallest favor towards the positive, and here we are - the products of that slightest of imbalances.

 

 

(Able to hold that slightest imbalance that favors the positive and speaks to our hearts.)

[Marblehead]

Speaking of going off topic - I shal continue to remain here for a while.

It's not quite that simple, and has bigger implications because we smudge the science to conform with incorrect ideas. It's this supposed dark matter which holds the universe together, because the gravity of physical matter we *can* see is too weak to do it alone. They're just trying to find something to fill the cracks in an incorrect theory. That means pulling more gravity out of thin air. Soon enough they'll have to admit that gravity is not the driving force of the cosmos, it's a side-effect. Until then, theres funding to be had.

Recent thoughts being presented suggest that gravity was the first force to break away from Oneness.  In my mind that would make it "the" primary force.  Without gravity hydrogen could never have accumulated to form helium and therefore stars.  And we know we all are stardust.

 

Gravity is strong enough to warp space/time.

 

Without gravity the nuclear forces could likely never have been established.

 

Electromagnetic force is a tricky one.  Is it actually the same force as gravity?

[Marblehead]

Another small quibble - things weren't perfectly balanced. Anti-matter and matter would have cancelled each other out had there been perfect balance. There was the smallest favor towards the positive, and here we are - the products of that slightest of imbalances. (Able to hold that slightest imbalance that favors the positive and speaks to our hearts.)

I'm still not comfortable with the concept of anti-matter.  Science still hasn't convinced me that there actually is or was such a thing.

 

But what you said is valid based on what science is saying right now.

[AussieTrees]

Speaking of going off topic - I shal continue to remain here for a while.

 

Recent thoughts being presented suggest that gravity was the first force to break away from Oneness.  In my mind that would make it "the" primary force.  Without gravity hydrogen could never have accumulated to form helium and therefore stars.  And we know we all are stardust.

 

Gravity is strong enough to warp space/time.

 

Without gravity the nuclear forces could likely never have been established.

 

Electromagnetic force is a tricky one.  Is it actually the same force as gravity?

 

Where did or when did hydrogen form to be effected by gravity?

[Lataif]

The best understanding of Nothingness that I've come to . . . is that it's a kind of underlying characteristic of reality that has to do with it having no limit or constraint of any kind whatsoever.

 

"No thing" describes reality because reality has no ultimate bounds and no absolute form.

 

That's how/why anything and everything can arise from it.

 

Interestingly (for us humans), Nothingness can also limit itself . . . while still being unlimited.  If it couldn't limit itself, it would be limited.

 

That's where we fit in, it appears . .  .

Edited December 2, 2015 by Lataif