Is the wudang orbit all that it's cranked up to be?

[Oneironaut]

I've been hearing about the wudang orbit and want to know how it's different/better than the more widely practiced one's.

[Oneironaut]

I asked this question about a year ago lol

 

I'm still kind of curious about this. Is this some sort of "add on" for a standard orbit? What makes it so special? Is it even worth learning and delving into? In some respects it sounds pretty dangerous too.

 

This method is being marketed as being more effortless and more powerful than any other orbit method out there. Is there any truth to this?

Edited November 2, 2016 by Oneironaut

[MIchael80]

Do you mean what Michael Winn calls the "wudang orbit"?

[Wu Ming Jen]

I study on Wudang the method is the same as in many other schools, It is all in the details. I had a Taoist priest show  me a detail in opening up the descending channel,  front of the body. It is a simple 5% tilt forward on the beginning of exhale. visually not really noticeable but feeling the drop is noticeable..

[Oneironaut]

I'm surprised no one here has any hands on experience with this red dragon method. I'm going to assume that's it's all marketing hype.

[idquest]

If this is an orbit that runs from perineum to diaphragm, then many systems have it. This is usually a stage in development. Mitchell for instance teaches this as a part of his LDT rotation technique, level 1 in his curriculum.

[Aetherous]

I'm surprised no one here has any hands on experience with this red dragon method. I'm going to assume that's it's all marketing hype.

I have some experience with it, but don't practice it today unfortunately.

 

"Wudang orbit" seems to have been partially based on the same practice. I would definitely not compare it to red dragon.

[liminal_luke]

I'm surprised no one here has any hands on experience with this red dragon method. I'm going to assume that's it's all marketing hype.

 

Looks like you`re not getting the kind of feedback you hoped for.  Perhaps you can be the pioneer and try it and report back? There`s no experience like your own.

[silent thunder]

I'm unfamiliar with that name.  Though I may know the circuit under a different name...

what points lie on its path?

[Brian]

I'm unfamiliar with that name. Though I may know the circuit under a different name...

what points lie on its path?

I suspect this may be the issue.

 

For the record, my personal experience is that directing energetic flux is counterproductive. These things happen on their own in the fullness of time on a scale far exceeding that which is forced.

[Zhongyongdaoist]

For the record, my personal experience is that directing energetic flux is counterproductive. These things happen on their own in the fullness of time on a scale far exceeding that which is forced.

 

Yes.

 

It's a good record, people should listen to it more often.

[Brian]

 

Yes.

 

It's a good record, people should listen to it more often.

Michael Lomax showed me things I cannot describe or explain, things which exploded my belief system in the best of ways and changed me. I don't imagine this, or he, is unique in this regard but the influence was profound and life-changing.

[silent thunder]

Such profound gratitude for the amazing humans, walking our plane with love and a desire to help!  What gifts they bring.

 

Zhou Ting-Jue and Wang Li Ping both affected the field of my awareness in paradigm disintegrating ways... not in ways I didn't expect... but in manners that I didn't even know could be affected... I was... how to put it, it's like my energetic essence was rung like a bell... and my experience of life shifted... a manner of being and a level of experience that was there all along, but unnoticed in the way I imagine many fish are unaware of water. 

 

In the resonance of this shift, it was like vibrating in a new manner that revealed levels of reality previously not even contemplated...

 

As I look back on it,  there is a constant breath like expansion and contraction... flowering and receding... outward/inward, a simultaneous expansion to the extents of imagination and contraction into the depth of stillness which is at its core, connected to everything and every non-thing.

 

In the resonance of this reality altering, profoundly simple, awareness, the old way of viewing and experiencing life is shelled.  I can still look at my old way of viewing the world, but it's like holding an empty scarab carapace.  An incredibly detailed and uncannily familiar carapace... but a small, tiny shell of a box like 'thing', so small, a frighteningly tiny, three dimensional 'thing'.

Regarding the MCO, it's been consistently downplayed by my in person teachers and tends to be emphasized only in books and conversations.

 

Repeated questions about it were met with a tone of

"the MCO is open and flowing in all humans beginning in the womb.  If it is not flowing your body is not alive" 

Do not obsess on the MCO. 

It is a natural process and can be a useful tool. 

It will become more useful naturally with the practice, with no special prodding or attention. 

When you sit, sit.  When you stand, stand.  When you walk, walk. s

Do the work.  Nature sorts itself.

 

edit: quote mishap
 

Edited November 3, 2016 by silent thunder

[joeblast]

never heard of a specific "wudang orbit" and people seem to have discussed a few different things here.

 

MCO, well...   I stir that with a shovel as opposed to a straw stalk

[Aetherous]

Is this some sort of "add on" for a standard orbit?

 

The wudang orbit of Michael Winn might work like that. Red dragon on the other hand is a highly refined method based originally on the concept of the orbit, as well as other Daoist notions. It's more like an add-on to the Kunlun system...I say this because having a good foundation in the Kunlun method makes it safer. I would say that having a physically opened orbit, through the one breath, also helps it work. The standard orbit as most understand it is a physical phenomenon...red dragon isn't necessarily about the physical body and specific points and channels, but more so to do with perception/awareness (from what I can tell about it...these are all just my views, with excellent instruction yet limited practice).

 

What makes it so special?

 

The way it's designed is incredibly unique in terms of the result it produces. There are a number of specific considerations in its construction...without those, and just describing the basics of how it's performed, causes the positive result to be lost. It creates unique effects that deal with becoming untied from the physical body...it's special because of how interesting it is, but more so it should be special only for people who are cultivating that. It's not always wise to cultivate leaving the body...for some people, that becomes pathological and self destructive.

 

Is it even worth learning and delving into?

 

Only for Kunlun practitioners, who follow instructions well, who want to cultivate the results it produces.

 

In some respects it sounds pretty dangerous too.

 

It can cause death with its qi deviation, if that were to occur in a certain way...this is why I don't practice it today...as well as other milder forms of qi deviation. There is a lot to consider in terms of prerequisites and rules, if you want safety. Once those are considered, it can be quite safe and beneficial.

 

This method is being marketed as being more effortless and more powerful than any other orbit method out there. Is there any truth to this?

 

Red dragon is not effortless, although perhaps the result that comes is partially effortless...this would only make sense to someone who knows how it's designed. It is definitely "more powerful" than other orbit methods that are known to the public.

Figured I'd share some information since the OP was really asking for more.

[dwai]

Such profound gratitude for the amazing humans, walking our plane with love and a desire to help!  What gifts they bring.

 

Zhou Ting-Jue and Wang Li Ping both affected the field of my awareness in paradigm disintegrating ways... not in ways I didn't expect... but in manners that I didn't even know could be affected... I was... how to put it, it's like my energetic essence was rung like a bell... and my experience of life shifted... a manner of being and a level of experience that was there all along, but unnoticed in the way I imagine many fish are unaware of water. 

 

In the resonance of this shift, it was like vibrating in a new manner that revealed levels of reality previously not even contemplated...

 

As I look back on it,  there is a constant breath like expansion and contraction... flowering and receding... outward/inward, a simultaneous expansion to the extents of imagination and contraction into the depth of stillness which is at its core, connected to everything and every non-thing.

 

In the resonance of this reality altering, profoundly simple, awareness, the old way of viewing and experiencing life is shelled.  I can still look at my old way of viewing the world, but it's like holding an empty scarab carapace.  An incredibly detailed and uncannily familiar carapace... but a small, tiny shell of a box like 'thing', so small, a frighteningly tiny, three dimensional 'thing'.

Regarding the MCO, it's been consistently downplayed by my in person teachers and tends to be emphasized only in books and conversations.

 

Repeated questions about it were met with a tone of

"the MCO is open and flowing in all humans beginning in the womb.  If it is not flowing your body is not alive" 

Do not obsess on the MCO. 

It is a natural process and can be a useful tool. 

It will become more useful naturally with the practice, with no special prodding or attention. 

When you sit, sit.  When you stand, stand.  When you walk, walk. s

Do the work.  Nature sorts itself.

 

edit: quote mishap

 

 

Just wanted to say my teacher said pretty much the same thing! 

[joeblast]

Figured I'd share some information since the OP was really asking for more.

did you receive any other RDP instruction from max aside from when the bunch of us were in NJ?  just curious, since your understandings of it seem to differ from mine a bit.  a bit more....max-bonics, than I'd put things, but maybe its just semantics

Edited November 3, 2016 by joeblast

[Wu Ming Jen]

The swimming dragon form was a prescription for Michel to loosen up his chest his posture was too military style in the chest.

 

Others may also benefit from the practice but it does not change the MCO method. It is an additional exercise.

 

Red dragon seems odd to call his method. This is a marketing method, the secret form which can not be traced hence red dragon IMO so precede with caution 

 

Micro or small heavenly orbit is practiced sitting. Grand heavenly circulation is practiced standing

Edited November 3, 2016 by Wu Ming Jen

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

There is no "other" orbit, there is only the one body that each of us has and the various pathways existing in them.

There are many methods to open the MCO though, and they all have different benefits and drawbacks.

Can you clarify what "red dragon" is?  That is a phrase I've come across in one very rare elixir classic in Dao Zang, but I don't think it is a practice, but rather a code word for something related to the heart.

Basically, when you practice Qi gong, it is much faster to get Qi into the MCO than Neidan, but it is not as deep and ultimately should be used as an adjunct to meditation

[Wu Ming Jen]

Nice post silly bear.

 

Maybe he was trying to stop his menstrual cycle with the red dragon method

[joeblast]

One key bit of verbiage:  Red Dragon Palm.  This aint just reverse mco, its not the subject of the OP here.  This is more 'doing something' or manifesting something rather than cultivating just the orbit.  The dantiens need to be cultivated before the orbit.  Proceed slowly to harmonization of upper and lower dantiens like the turtle says in Huo Hou Tu; but the rabbit says dont waste time in getting there, the rooster says do so confidently.   The orbit needs to be cultivated before something like red dragon palm has much of any meaning.

[Wu Ming Jen]

I just did more research because "red dragon" mco as named is not a thing on wudang and yes the list taught is endless. Yes you can also train with the hermits and learn secret forms a few years in on your training.

 

From Winn's web site "I call my new method the Spinning Dragon Orbit." Winn has developed this exercise to sell which is fine and anyone can say it is Wudang which gets the name out there so whatever.

 

I think Spinning is a good description of energy centers sense the do not open or close but have a spinning frequency.

 

From another web site "The most powerful variant is the Spinning Dragon Orbit, my variant of a Wudang practice originally called the Red Dragon method.".

 

​I am not dissing any practice but Winn and his mentor like to play the sex card because it sells. The true foundation is vitality. Any form of exercise including MCO with belly stimulation release the hormones that are active in sexual situations. Vitality is what makes the body, gives life and the energy to do the things we need to do.

 

Start at the foundation Jing, Chi then Shen we call them three but are one. There is no skipping steps because they natural lead to the next step up to reach the highest mountain.

 

​The swimming dragon forms That Winn is performing in his video are found on Wudang and many schools especial Hing I Chuan schools.

[Aetherous]

did you receive any other RDP instruction from max aside from when the bunch of us were in NJ?  just curious, since your understandings of it seem to differ from mine a bit.  a bit more....max-bonics, than I'd put things, but maybe its just semantics

Yep...it was essential to learn more. I think I shared my notes with you in daobums messaging a few years back.

[Aetherous]

That is a phrase I've come across in one very rare elixir classic in Dao Zang, but I don't think it is a practice, but rather a code word for something related to the heart.

That's incredibly interesting, and I hope you share more...maybe a translation of the section with that phrase, if you're willing?

[RyanO]

Howdy,

 

I don't post much on here, and it's obvious that devoted practitioners of the Healing Tao post even less.

 

I myself do not practice much of Winn's stuff anymore but I did want to mention that I know practitioners who do and have for years and receive great benefit, there's just not a strong voice on here (if interested check out the Healing Tao forums).  That said my experience with this particular version of the orbit practice was that it was powerful, safe, and authentic, and I would recommend exploring it.  Winn is a great teacher and innovator and I highly respect his work.

 

I also wanted to say that mind-directed methods are proven, time tested approaches that are not inferior to less directed methods.  Both have their pros and cons which may vary according to the individual.  In either case, I would agree that not "forcing" anything is a good idea, but that's not exactly the same thing as saying not to lead qi with intent, which is a hallmark of many approaches to energy work.