mopai

[Nungali]

Dont worry , a penis isnt everything :

 

Little Boy : " I got a brand new scooter for Christmasm !"

 

Little Girl :  " Ohhh ?  I got a brand new BMX bike ." 

 

Little Boy; " "Oh yeah ... well, I get  $15 a week pocket money   - if I do yard work "

 

Little Girl ; < holds up card >  " I got my own plastic. "

 

Little Boy ;  "  Well then ..... my dad is the foreman at work  ! "

 

G : " My dad  owns his own business ... it does quiet well ! "

 

B ;  " Well ... well .....   <pulls down his pants >   I got one of these ! And my big brother says that makes me better than any girl ! "

 

 G; "Really ?  Well  .... <pulls down her pants and points >  I got one of these ! And my big sister says, when I get older ,  if I have one of these ... I can get one of those < points >  when ever I want ! "   

[dayzhaze]

The truth is that not only real students of JC came forth to tell that "western Mo Pai" were in fact training in an unsafe and incomplete manner, but also students of Jiang Feng(one of them actually on the NG-forum and was swiftly shut down as a "troll" by MPG and company for "heresy"). Going by books that were clearly not intended as a manual/bible (says so in the beginning as disclaimer BTW) is at most a waste of time and at worst dangerous (there have been "students" of MPG who went to Jiang Feng after years of training only to find out that they hadn't acquired any qi at all and wasted their time). Those people have no understanding of how zhen qi acts, pre requirements and how it should be collected/stored/emitted, differences between nei qi/wai qi, the role character plays in internal gong fu, etc. They just guess and hope for the best and even worse than that they spread misinformation and false ideas. AUTHENTIC NEI GONG SHOULD BE PRACTICED ONLY UNDER THE SUPERVISION OF A MASTER..

 

"unsafe and incomplete manner"

 

The instructions come straight from Jim and Kosta.

 

"students of Jiang Feng"

 

Neither I nor any other member of our group has seen any good evidence to for Jiang's supposed abilities.  Good evidence meaning credentialed professions were present to rule out fraud.

 

"was swiftly shut down as a "troll""

 

It is their forum, they do not tolerate people coming in and claiming Jim and Kosta lied or misunderstood what they were taught, or general disrespect.   They created their own forum to get away from the insanity here, and I can understand why they wouldn't tolerate people like you or your friends there.

 

"(there have been "students" of MPG who went to Jiang Feng after years of training only to find out that they hadn't acquired any qi at all and wasted their time)"

 

When I first met morepie I had all kids of misconceptions about what mopai and meditation in general were about.  He worked hard to show me exactly why what I believed was meditation had nothing to do with what mo pai considers meditation.   I can obviously see why most who attempt would fail, because they lack the understanding of what it is they are even supposed to be doing.  You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink.  I believe morepie does his best, but you can't expect people who think they know better, or who refuse to listen or pay attention to accomplish anything.  Furthermore we do not know if Jiang is fraud yet or not, none of us have seen any good evidence to support his abilities yet.  If he is a fraud there is no sense in listening to opinions.

 

"they spread misinformation and false ideas."

 

All morepie does is quote Jim and Kosta, that is it.  If anyone is "guilty" of spreading misinformation, and false ideas it is them. 

Edited November 20, 2015 by dayzhaze

[Jetsun]

"Kosta Danaos is a literary construct, designed for a particular market"

~ Kosta Danaos

 

http://www.pammachon.gr/index.php/en/contact-us

[dayzhaze]

Because it's the most absurd thing I've ever heard in my life.

 

Why a snake?

 

Why Australia?

 

Where's the evidence?

 

Why on Earth would you believe something like that?

 

I don't understand the logic.

 

I am not sure you can reason with such a person.  I am sending prayers to our creator that his perception is healed. Even if you don't believe in that, I hope you will meditate with metta for him. 

[dayzhaze]

"Kosta Danaos is a literary construct, designed for a particular market"

~ Kosta Danaos

 

http://www.pammachon.gr/index.php/en/contact-us

 

It's his pen name, the contents of his books in reference to what John Chang said are accurate.  You can email him yourself and ask this question.  I wrote to him to ask if the story behind Liao Sifu was real or if he took poetic license to make it sound more fantastic.  His response to me was that was what John told him, exactly as John told him.  

Edited November 20, 2015 by dayzhaze

[thelerner]

<edited a bit

 

You know what I think..? 

 

I think Kosta was telling the truth and Chang was .. romanticizing.  That answer puts together all the pieces of the puzzle, imo.  

 

I think Chang is a master, great healer, can do the electro shocks with his body.  But I don't think that's enough to impress Westerners, to separate him out.  Attaining such mastery is a long and pretty boring journey.  Hours and hours of daily practice over decades.. to master the art and healing.  And in his country it doesn't overly impress people. 

 

Westerns are smart but they also very gullible.  Since the early 70's we have the Castaneda effect going on.  People looking for wonder and powers.  It leads to bad ends, Castaneda certainly did, for himself and his closest followers.  Good books though, but they're invented hodge podge created by an anthropology major.

 

I think, not sure, so are some of the stories Chang told Kosta.   He added legitimate practices from Mo Pai, but also stories, not lies exactly, romantification I call it, and he's not the only high level guy guilty of it.  The fighting off natives, secret books, wizardly battles are romanticized. 

 

I think if we went to Indonesia, saw real practitioners and visited there school we wouldn't find people levitating stuff or doing pyrokinesis.   We'd fine an excellent and deep school of gigong.  

 

I could be wrong but that's what I got. 

Edited December 3, 2015 by thelerner

[Nungali]

Well, if our conscious experience is an expression of our subconscious, then what is more "real?"

 

I dont think it is.   The whole point of the unconscious is that it is unconscious - not known by or expressed by the conscious or 'conscious experience'. 

 

Some things are 'more real' on their own plane than others.  'Which one is more real' is also a dualistic type question. Both have function as sets or planes of multiple realities,

 

Thats why people with one story (song) from one part of country might say life started from big snake, and another say life came with a woman walking out the sea with a dilly bad full of roots and seeds and babies her belly. One is a 'desert story' the other from up around north coast ....  back then the sear was lower and there were connections to the north to PNG / Indonesia / etc.

 

But when these two tell their stories, one will not say, 'No that is wrong, the big mother bought like. not a snake'. They will see them as all different ways of describing one reality.  Its like facets of one jewel, one thing becoming the myriad things.

 

Seeing both sides of a question is just a start.  Try looking at ( as some Sufis say) 7 ways.   You know , the 'elephant in the dark stable' and all that. 

 

 

Serpents figure prominently in many cross-cultural Creation myths.  Why?  One interpretation would be that they represent primal base jing that when sublimated upwards, powers one's "higher" shen.  A "dragon" is a ground-dwelling snake that has grown "wings" - essentially one's subconscious surfacing and reintegrating with one's "higher" consciousness.  Projected onto a macro scale, you get Creation and "ascension" myths...

 

"sublimated upwards' .... interesting. 

 

And you just found another way to look at it, gain (or express) some knowledge from it, 

 

But it just isnt a snake is it .  An important principle has been added ; 'circulation'.  As a '  Projection onto a macro scale,  and you get Creation and "ascension" myths' ,  one can reverse that, like the snake goes up and down the staff and they cross over.

 

Perhaps there is some 'original form'  ( singularity? ) we cant perceive, only these manifestations of forms, all expressions of the one thing ?   In the snake myth I mentioned, it starts with two snakes; one in 'the heavens' and one on the 'earth' .  One black and one light (rainbow colored).  One could even say, the story could be illustrated by that image.  

[flyinghigh]

 In fact, the "sign" of progress in in the palm you have mentioned above is actually a sign of very bad thing. In Chinese, this is called Zou Huo Ru Mo.  走火入魔。 I am posting this so that hopefully no one gets hurt.

 

 

 any deviation from the correct technique can be deadly. Sure, the first few levels sound pretty easy and simple. However, one small mistake done numerous times for numerous years will be quite devastating to the body of the practitioner.

...Pretty soon, they will experience what we call Zou Huo Ru Mo. What Sabretooth is talking about is exactly the result of someone experiencing Zou Huo Ru Mo. Someone, a few years back, did have a mark in his palm after practicing incorrectly for quite a while. John Chang and another elder checked his condition and found that student to be in that state of Zou Huo Ru Mo. In that person's case, it was almost to the point of life-threatening. I, sincerely, hope that Sabretooth is no where close to that. The only thing to do is to stop whatever he is doing at once and get help. We know that it's not realistic to ask Mopai enthusiasts to stop practicing "Mopai". I'm not going to argue the credibility of those techniques, and I have read them. I'm not going to argue that those techniques are actually identical to what John Chan taught Jim.

 

 

Zou Huo Ru Mo is qigong deviation. A imbalance in the chi due to incorrect practice. My suggestion is to try another art with a teacher who can fix you if need be.

 

Can you guys expand on the info of what Zou Huo Ru Mo is?

How does John Chang define it?

What happens in the body with the qi?

Why is it so dangerous?

 

You say on the one hand that one should stop (or correct one's technique) , but then also that you cannot expect people not to practice.

I thought, the ancestors had consented to non-Chinese (however that is defined) learning levels 1 and 2.

So, if the techniques, that are circling around, often miss a very crucial detail, couldn't you out of compassion for your fellow men and to avoid more and longer suffering give some information what should be corrected?

You guys and  I guess your school could still rest assured that no non-Chinese would ever achieve more than level 2, but suffering of the people who are now following apparently incomplete techniques leading to, as you say, life threatening conditions, can be avoided.

[Brian]

If someone who had gone partway through medical school posted on the Internet step-by-step instructions for a relatively simple brain surgery technique, would the rational thing to do be to practice it over and over in hope that you might one day so impress a medical school that they invite you to attend? If you were a physician and you stumbled upon people trying to practice do-it-yourself brain surgery, would the responsible action be to give them a few pointers or to urge them to stop?

 

Notice that this in no way reflects on the legitimacy of brain surgery itself, or of any particular medical school, or of any particular professor, or of any particular brain surgeon.

[flyinghigh]

If someone who had gone partway through medical school posted on the Internet step-by-step instructions for a relatively simple brain surgery technique, would the rational thing to do be to practice it over and over in hope that you might one day so impress a medical school that they invite you to attend? If you were a physician and you stumbled upon people trying to practice do-it-yourself brain surgery, would the responsible action be to give them a few pointers or to urge them to stop?

 

Notice that this in no way reflects on the legitimacy of brain surgery itself, or of any particular medical school, or of any particular professor, or of any particular brain surgeon.

Well, we're talking levels 1 and 2 here. Since there are 72 levels, these are the very basics. So this would be more akin to learning how to measure a pulse or blood pressure than doing the surgery which would be the culmination of such studies.

[dayzhaze]

If someone who had gone partway through medical school posted on the Internet step-by-step instructions for a relatively simple brain surgery technique, would the rational thing to do be to practice it over and over in hope that you might one day so impress a medical school that they invite you to attend? If you were a physician and you stumbled upon people trying to practice do-it-yourself brain surgery, would the responsible action be to give them a few pointers or to urge them to stop?

 

Notice that this in no way reflects on the legitimacy of brain surgery itself, or of any particular medical school, or of any particular professor, or of any particular brain surgeon.

 

Jim and Kosta understand what John Chang taught them. I and the others in the group would rather pursue something real even if incomplete, than nothing at all. 

Edited November 22, 2015 by dayzhaze

[dayzhaze]

You know what I think..? 

 

I think Kosta was telling the truth and Chang was .. romanticizing.  That answer puts together all the pieces of the puzzle, imo.  

 

I think Chang is a master, great healer, can do the electro shocks with his body.  But I don't think that's enough to impress Westerners, to separate him out.  Attaining such mastery is a long and pretty boring journey.  Hours and hours of daily practice over decades.. to master the art and healing.  And in his country it doesn't overly impress people. 

 

Westerns are smart but they also very gullible.  Since the early 70's we have the Castaneda effect going on.  People looking for wonder and powers.  It leads to bad ends, Castaneda certainly did, for himself and his closest followers.  Good books though, but they're invented hodge podge created by an anthropology major.

 

I think, not sure, so are the stories Chang told Kosta.   He added legitimate practices from Mo Pai, but most of it are stories, not lies exactly, romantification I call it, and he's not the only high level guy guilty of it.  The fighting off natives, secret books, wizardly battles made up... made up... made up.  This is why some of Changs tricks look so much like cheap magic set ups.  Why Jim could only perform telekinesis in a dark basement when Chang and his friends were there.  Why Kosta left Mo Pai. 

 

I think if we went to Indonesia, saw real practitioners and visited there school we wouldn't find people levitating stuff or doing pyrokinesis.   We'd fine an excellent and deep school of gigong.  

 

I could be wrong but that's what I got. 

 

I think Kosta was telling the truth

 

I think Chang is a master, great healer, can do the electro shocks with his body.

 

If Kosta told the truth, then Chang is capable of much more than electro shocks.

 

"Why Jim could only perform telekinesis in a dark basement when Chang and his friends were there."

 

Jim had not attained level 4 yet, he could not project yang outside his body without a yin field present.  John provided that for the demonstration.

[dayzhaze]

Some people, even those on this forum, have already gone to great efforts to correct the mistakes regarding the cultivation practices presented by the third party teachers and to also explain the path of immortality and enlightenment for those stagnated by Mo Pai. It, however, naturally falls on deaf ears, possibly because the people that propagate Mo Pai the hardest, and in-turn draw the most attention, are the least experienced and most closed-minded individuals in the cultivation community. 

 

The masses share a similar level of awareness, and therefor naturally congregate, so it is up to one of their own to gain true understanding and present that understanding before the Mo Pai community as a whole can evolve. 

 

"the least experienced"

 

Talking with morepie, all he as ever done with me is quote Jim and Kosta.  Nothing he has taught used his own words, but rather those of Jim and Kosta.  I agree he may not be experienced, but they are.

[Neikung]

Can you guys expand on the info of what Zou Huo Ru Mo is?

How does John Chang define it?

What happens in the body with the qi?

Why is it so dangerous?

 

You say on the one hand that one should stop (or correct one's technique) , but then also that you cannot expect people not to practice.

I thought, the ancestors had consented to non-Chinese (however that is defined) learning levels 1 and 2.

So, if the techniques, that are circling around, often miss a very crucial detail, couldn't you out of compassion for your fellow men and to avoid more and longer suffering give some information what should be corrected?

You guys and  I guess your school could still rest assured that no non-Chinese would ever achieve more than level 2, but suffering of the people who are now following apparently incomplete techniques leading to, as you say, life threatening conditions, can be avoided.

Hi Flyinghigh:

Zou Huo Ru Mo occurs because qi accumulates in incorrect channels or places, leading to unhealthy consequences. Other examples of Zou Hou Ru Mo include seeing "fireflies" during meditation, enlarged necks, random vibrations somewhere in the body. I don't know what the final consequence is for each of these conditions but it can't be good.

 

We believe that neigong can be only taught in person and not through the internet.  In addition, you need a real teacher, who can gauge qi and more importantly can test the students' progress.  There are no signs for completion of level 1 in Mopai (Keeping a journal won't help because meditation efficiency differs between people and can be very very inefficient for some). Thus, even if you have the correct exercises, they are USELESS because without John Chang's supervision and tests, you can't progress beyond level 1.

[dayzhaze]

Hi Flyinghigh:

Zou Huo Ru Mo occurs because qi accumulates in incorrect channels or places, leading to unhealthy consequences. Other examples of Zou Hou Ru Mo include seeing "fireflies" during meditation, enlarged necks, random vibrations somewhere in the body. I don't know what the final consequence is for each of these conditions but it can't be good.

 

We believe that neigong can be only taught in person and not through the internet.  In addition, you need a real teacher, who can gauge qi and more importantly can test the students' progress.  There are no signs for completion of level 1 in Mopai (Keeping a journal won't help because meditation efficiency differs between people and can be very very inefficient for some). Thus, even if you have the correct exercises, they are USELESS because without John Chang's supervision and tests, you can't progress beyond level 1.

 

"you can't progress beyond level 1."

 

Even if this is true,  I would rather spend my life focused on something real, even if that meant only ever attaining level 1.  I and many of the others wish more than anything a viable alternative to mopai existed.

[Wells]

.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[KenBrace]

Ok dude, I get it.

So what would be your advice to westerner people who want to learn a system similar to Mo Pai?

Is there an alternative to westerners then?

If your guys' goal is really to just keep westerners from screwing themselves up with improper Mo pai training,

only pointing them to an alternative will really do the trick.

You can point to the dangers of unrevised and dangerous Mo Pai training all day long,

I doubt that this will keep any fanatic from training in it until there is an alternative.

Are you aware of a legit Nei Kung teacher who teaches Nei Kung to westerners?

Some constructive input would be very appreciated,

by all of us.

In case an alternative for westerners is found, most likely no westerner will ever attempt to train in Mo Pai anymore.

It's as simple as that.

 

Btw, I am aware of a Chi Kung system (and it's teacher) available to westerners that seems to work in filling your tantien with compressed yang chi,

but this system does not include working with yin chi.

So my question to you is: Will a tantien filled with condensed yang chi allow me to exit the cycle of reincarnation, according to your informations and according to the teachings of your school?

Or, if I want to exit the cycle of reincarnation, do I need to train necessarily in a Nei Kung system, which develops and accumulates yin chi as well?

The teacher of said system is just interested in healing and developing Neijin and could not answer my question regarding reincarnation.

 

I second this post.

 

I'd really like to know the answers to the above questions.

[Jetsun]

So Kosta Danaos doesn't teach any Mo Pai to anyone any more and doesn't practice it any more, he says that people should "get on with their lives" rather than try to learn it. If it is the only thing on the planet worth learning then why does he take this attitude towards it?

[Wells]

.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[voidisyinyang]

Ok dude, I get it.

So what would be your advice to westerner people who want to learn a system similar to Mo Pai?

Is there an alternative to westerners then?

If your guys' goal is really to just keep westerners from screwing themselves up with improper Mo pai training,

only pointing them to an alternative will really do the trick.

You can point to the dangers of unrevised and dangerous Mo Pai training all day long,

I doubt that this will keep any fanatic from training in it until there is an alternative.

Are you aware of a legit Nei Kung teacher who teaches Nei Kung to westerners?

Some constructive input would be very appreciated,

by all of us.

In case an alternative for westerners is found, most likely no westerner will ever attempt to train in Mo Pai anymore.

It's as simple as that.

 

Btw, I am aware of a Chi Kung system (and it's teacher) available to westerners that seems to work in filling your tantien with compressed yang chi,

but this system does not include working with yin chi.

So my question to you is: Will a tantien filled with condensed yang chi allow me to exit the cycle of reincarnation, according to your informations and according to the teachings of your school?

Or, if I want to exit the cycle of reincarnation, do I need to train necessarily in a Nei Kung system, which develops and accumulates yin chi as well?

The teacher of said Chi Kung system is just interested in healing and developing Neijin and could not answer my question regarding reincarnation.

 

I will answer this - to exit reincarnation means to focus on your Yuan Qi source on the right side of the heart - it is the pin hole secret - as detailed in Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality.

 

So the problem with just doing that - as it taught by Ramana Maharshi who focused on ending reincarnation - or as taught in say vipassana or theravadin Buddhism - is, as the book "Measuring Meditation" points out - this is just emptying out the 7th level of consciousness - the ego - which is relatively easy to do but it doesn't heal the body.

 

So ironically this happened to the person teaching that problem - Master Nan, Huai-chin who died of pneumonia. He says in his own teaching that if the physical body is sick then there is not enough qi to empty out the mind for samadhi - and so at that last breath of life your mind sinks into the relative void and you turn into a ghost.

 

Now nevertheless - you're going to go to heaven but you'll still reincarnate.

 

Whereas in Taoism the physical immortality means you are self-aware through the spiritual ego - the Yuan Shen - of the Emptiness past death - and you also store up enough yuan qi energy in the lower tan tien to power yourself - your yuan shen - after death - so that you can choose your next physical incarnation - but you'll still reincarnate.

 

The paradox here is that yuan qi is actually the wu chi - so that even if a person dies into the relative void - in a sense they are still immortal only they are not aware of how their yuan shen spirit will get recycled as a spacetime shift into a new reincarnated yang shen body.

 

So Ramana Maharshi is correct in this sense - but his left-brain vichara yoga is actually the foundation of Western philosophy as creating modern humans with ghost pollution - as the living Undead - going around the world spreading rectilinear monocultural farming that wipes out ecology - all because of this wrong philosophy of a geometrically contained infinity that started with the supposed "I-I" as the closed axiom, "I am that I am" for symmetric geometric logic.

 

The truth instead is complementary opposites - which was maintained by the "three gunas" of India - which Ramana called the three in one unity. It's just that he was steeped in the Brahmin philosophy - and his native Tamil had the Dravidian roots but that philosophy got transferred or subsumed into the Brahmin Western Asian philosophy, that spread into India by the monocultural white malnutrition plow wheat farmers - Brahman means God as Bull just as God comes from the IndoEuropean Gott - also meaning Bull.

 

You can read my blog for more details.

[Wells]

.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[dayzhaze]

Where have the days gone when a  student had to prove himself to worthy of a teachers teachings, not the other way around. 

 

A feeling of entitlement in a child is something that we as adults look at and wonder how he was raised to be like this. This attitude in adults is mind boggling. 

 

I agree with you.  Teachers are not obligated to prove their abilities.    On the other hand, students are not required to investigate every fraud on earth to try and find a needle in a hay stack.  

[dayzhaze]

So Kosta Danaos doesn't teach any Mo Pai to anyone any more and doesn't practice it any more, he says that people should "get on with their lives" rather than try to learn it. If it is the only thing on the planet worth learning then why does he take this attitude towards it?

 

It is my understanding Kosta still receives hundreds of emails a week from lunatics.  I think Kosta is burnt out having to deal with the insanity.  I know my mentor and friend morepie has this same problem.  He has forwarded me emails so crazy I question how these people haven't wound up in insane asylums.     Obviously Kosta didn't have this attitude when he wrote his books, but he became progressively more cynical as time went on.   I think Kosta started out with the attitude that there were lots of other people like him, intelligent, rational, serious individuals, and reality has changed his stance.   This is also the vibe I get from morepie. 

Edited November 23, 2015 by dayzhaze

[TheDustAutumn]

..

Edited November 27, 2015 by TheDustAutumn

[Wells]

.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells