mopai

[Jeff]

Hi Dayzhaze,

 

Rather than this endless discussion of banning or not, I would be interested in discussing your mopai tradition with you (if you are interested). I can feel that you are open at the lower and middle dan tien and can probably feel aspects of energy flows.

 

Maybe you could describe your current practices and how they are helpful?

 

 

Thanks,

Jeff

Edited November 26, 2015 by Jeff

[WIldCat]

Hi Dayzhaze,

 

Rather than this endless discussion of banning or not, I would be interested in discussing your mopai tradition with you (if you are interested). I can feel that you are open at the lower and middle dan tien and can probably feel aspects of energy flows.

 

Maybe you could describe your current practices and how they are helpful?

 

 

Thanks,

Jeff

 

Though I suspect now my account will be banned as have the others in our group,  I am a member of the skype group. He will not be responding to your request.  This environment is too hostile to anyone who is serious about mopai to have any form of discussion here.  If mopai is something you are interested in and you can convince me you are actually serious I can see about getting you admittance to the group.  Otherwise no one even if he is not banned will be answering your questions.

My email is [email protected]. 

[Jeff]

Though I suspect now my account will be banned as have the others in our group,  I am a member of the skype group. He will not be responding to your request.  This environment is too hostile to anyone who is serious about mopai to have any form of discussion here.  If mopai is something you are interested in and you can convince me you are actually serious I can see about getting you admittance to the group.  Otherwise no one even if he is not banned will be answering your questions.

My email is [email protected]. 

 

Thank you for responding to me. I am sorry to hear that you feel that way. I had hoped we could have had a healthy discussion about the practices, while comparing and contrasting techniques.

 

Best wishes,

Jeff

[aboo]

I find it an interesting subject, but it's not going anywhere as the discussion is exactly the same as it was 2-3 years ago. The only people who make a mo pai thread interesting are the real students, but they have stated it's a closed system to westerners and that is that. I can't see them providing the kind of indepth information that is desired as they are not allowed to provide it.

Edited November 26, 2015 by aboo

[MooNiNite]

As you guys repeatedly pointed out that Jim & Kosta got "incorrect training information",

you must have trained Mo Pai incorrectly then.

 

I never said all of it was incorrect, so please don't assume that. 

[Wells]

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Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[MooNiNite]

Well, you claimed that you ruptured your tantien, didn't you?

Must have been pretty incorrect training then.

 

Actually only correct training will put you at risk to rupture your tantien. Kosta points out you have to atleast be level 2 for that to happen. 

[dawei]

~~~ ADMIN NOTICE ~~~

 

I'm sure this was not the fairest split... but the topic is Mopai.

 

The tit for tat goes here:

http://thedaobums.com/topic/39893-splitpit-from-mopai/

[小梦想]

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Edited August 11, 2018 by 小梦想

[JinlianPai]

Ok, so this morning I had some time and wanted to join the very serious discussion going on here. The Magus of Java is constantly being quoted as a source of validity to the western group training in Mo Pai. So I will quote a part from it too.

 

“I want you to stand here like this.” Liao Sifu showed him the basic entry into what has been popularly called the “Horse Riding Stance” (Ma Bu in Chinese). John eagerly copied his movement, Beginnings assuming the stance. Liao Sifu grunted in approval, corrected him briefly, then to John’s horror turned and began to head out the door. P31 Beginnings.

 

Liao made John stand like this. I assume the Mo Pai groups thought this to be a test of his determination to be a student. 

 

I think that his training started the minute he was made to stand in zhanzhuang. It activates channels inside the body that allows the dantian to be filled. Skipping this part and going straight to sitting is a probably waste of time. The required channels lay dorment, and qi does not get get stored in the dantian. Or jing or yangqi or watever gets put in there by your beliefs and reasoning. 

 

Do you guys not discuss this part at all? Why was he made to stand in Mabu? And more importantly, what if what I think is true? You guys spend alot of time doing Mo Pai level 1, and without mabu prior to this you are most likely doing nothing with the dantian.

 

But I know very little about only a few things. I am merely asking a question here, not making bold statements.

 

Yes very good point. I have also heard from kung fu masters that building up the chi in the 8 vessels is required before storing chi in the ldt, because the chi in the ldt will leave and go to the vessels to fill them up. So in kung fu sects they make you start in in mabu.  Back in ancient china real kung fu training didnt begin until your sifu felt the chi coming out of your hand like water. This is how it was for the creator of Yiquan when he was a boy training under his sifu.

[WIldCat]

I never said all of it was incorrect, so please don't assume that. 

 

So if I understand correctly, you know which bits Jim and Kosta misunderstood, and were able to correct their false teachings so you could practice real mopai?

[小梦想]

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Edited August 11, 2018 by 小梦想

[KenBrace]

Lets think about this for a second. None of the westerners are practicing real mo pai. You guys are practicing stuff given to you by those unauthorized to do so. Even if everything they gave you is 100% correct. Without a teacher to guide and fix imbalances that happen, you stand almost no chance to succeed. 

 

Where does this information come from?

 

Jim made it to level 3. He was tested and he passed.

 

How is this not real Mo Pai?

 

[小梦想]

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Edited August 11, 2018 by 小梦想

[KenBrace]

I don't really understand what you're saying. So Jim practiced real Mo Pai but his students don't? Are you saying that Jim passed on incorrect instructions to his students?

[小梦想]

.

Edited August 11, 2018 by 小梦想

[KenBrace]

"I pointed out that Mabu was a requirement for John Chang to start his journey, never being told why he was doing it. More than likely both Jim and kostas were required to stand in Mabu taught to them by John Chang(I dont know, I am assuming because they actually made progress) without realizing its importance. Attributing the practice to improving strength only. Thus leaving it out of the training they pass on. "

 

I don't know how to multi quote. I am not saying anything, but if anything I am speculating that they may have passed on incomplete instructions without meaning to do so based on what I read in The magus of Java. Not my opinion, just my observation from reading the book about John Changs training.

 

I suppose there is a chance you are right. But I would think that Jim and Kosta would do their best to teach their students exactly what they were taught themselves. If Chang made them stand in MaBu then I don't see any reason why Jim wouldn't do the same with his students. Even if he didn't understand the reason he would still realize that it's a required aspect of the training.

 

It is my understanding that MaBu is not a requirement but rather a helpful supplement. If it were absolutely required then it would have been strictly taught and emphasized by Chang to to Jim and Jim to his students.

[小梦想]

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Edited August 11, 2018 by 小梦想

[KenBrace]

But Jim doesn't have to understand the purpose behind MaBu to teach it. If he was taught to practice MaBu then why wouldn't he teach it to his students? Whether or not he understood it is irrelevant. 

[小梦想]

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Edited August 11, 2018 by 小梦想

[flyinghigh]

Mabu is undoubtedly a great basic exercise.

Also about Master Wang we learn that he had to stand in horse stand.

However, Master Wang has never taught horse stand in a class, that I know of.

So, it might not be that necessary a preperatory practice. Or you could argue that the practice with the tree serves a similar function. Not sure.

[Aeran]

I'm trying to make a point of not getting dragged into these redundant faux pai debates anymore, but I wanna touch on this because it's one of the things that's always bothered me about MPG and his crew.

 

He claims that his group is practicing genuine Mo Pai and that the books written by Danaos and McMillan are a valid guide to doing so, but in all these discussions I've never once seen the subject of standing meditation come up until now. Meanwhile in his second book, Danaos says this:

 

 

 

The first thing that Liao Sifu taught John Chang was to

stand in Ma Bu, the horse stance popularized by the

Chinese martial arts today. At first he thought this

practice was simply to test or torture him, but in time

John realized the benefits of standing—the primary one

being that of circulating the ch’i. T’ai chi chuan affects

pretty much the same training regimen today—standing in

Ma Bu while allowing the ch’i to circulate throughout the

body is the basic premise of the exercise known as

Standing Pole. For example, in the Mo-Pai system, if a

student were to practice only Level-One seated

meditation without engaging in a method of balancing out

the ch’i, the yang ch’i would eventually gather together

and harden in the lower belly of its own accord,

effectively preventing the practitioner from advancing any

farther than Level One. Thus, circulating the ch’i

throughout the body is just as important as gathering it in

the first place. In addition to training in standing,

practicing t’ai chi chuan with a good teacher from a

proper lineage will also aid in circulating bioenergy, and

has proved to have outstanding health benefits. 

 

So if people really are training in the way advised by MPG and his crew (solely through seated meditation, as far as I'm aware) and ignoring this fairly crucial instruction, they're not only not practicing the genuine training (despite the fact that it's outlined in Danaos' book), they are, according to their own sources, doing themselves potentially debilitating damage.

Edited November 27, 2015 by Aeran

[WIldCat]

Lets think about this for a second. None of the westerners are practicing real mo pai. You guys are practicing stuff given to you by those unauthorized to do so. Even if everything they gave you is 100% correct. Without a teacher to guide and fix imbalances that happen, you stand almost no chance to succeed. 

 

Even the correct method, done by a inexperienced practitioner will have small unintentional deviations. This is true for everyone, and a shifu sees these, makes tiny adjustments and guides your progress. Thinking even for a second that you can perfectly do the practice without ever deviating is the ego setting you up for a huge huge life lesson in accepting that we are not perfect and thinking we are will get us in trouble. 

 

I pointed out that Mabu was a requirement for John Chang to start his journey, never being told why he was doing it. More than likely both Jim and kostas were required to stand in Mabu taught to them by John Chang(I dont know, I am assuming because they actually made progress) without realizing its importance. Attributing the practice to improving strength only. Thus leaving it out of the training they pass on. 

 

Little things like this, not only can have you wasting a big part of your life pursuing something without getting the results you want but also produce Placebo effects from prolonged concentration on an area that seem very tangible. 

 

I am not saying this is definitely the case, but it very well could be. And seeing as none of you have a teacher to go ask what the importance of Mabu was to his development and current abilities, you are just guessing in the dark and hoping for the best. What you have as Mo Pai Level 1 may very well be Level 1B, Mabu being level 1A. 

 

Skipping the first practice means the following practices are all but useless. 

 

You have many people advising you that pursuing neigong without a teacher is dangerous. Having excuses as to why it is not dangerous, doesn't make it less dangerous in reality, just makes the decisions you make based on your own created reality. 

 

My favorite quote from one of my favorite books reads as follows. Wizards first rule is: "People will believe something because they want it to be true, or because they are afraid it might be true." This makes it extremely easy to view things in a obscured way. It also makes it very easy to trick people with the right carrot dangled or the right fear introduced. 

 

Fixing grammar when editing.

 

Liao taught John, and John taught Jim.  For many in our group Jim was directly our teacher. Some were students of Kosta.  Horse stance is used in supplement to the meditation. Please stop trolling our group.

Edited November 27, 2015 by WIldCat

[WIldCat]

I did not speak of Jim or Kosta. I spoke of you guys training with the information they gave. Jim has passed on and Kostas no longer trains. So yes, they trained in the real mo pai, but if you read my post again, i merely mention things they may have been given to do, without being explained the exact reason, could have led to them making progress. 

 

They just failed to see the relevance of this stupid horse stance they had to do in the beginning. I am not saying its defintely the case, but its written in the magus of java. John Chang started his journey doing mabu for extended periods of time. It is written in the book all Mo Pai followers in the west claims is true and the real teachings.

 

I merely asked why this is overlooked?? 

 

Please read my post again, and really try to absorb the information. I don't argue, just offer a different perspective. I agree Jim made progress, and Kostas. I agree John is a true master. I am not disagreeing with anything said in this thread. 

 

The one true master, the master who couldn't be debunked as often stated by the Mo Pai group, started his journey with Mabu every day. But none of those wishing to be like him, do the same exact training. Masters often start teaching you without you realizing. Could this be the case?

 

Horse stance is not overlooked and is used to supplement the meditation.

Edited November 27, 2015 by WIldCat

[WIldCat]

You asking me this question is neither here not there. I matters not what Jim taught, and to whom. If it is correct or wrong, complete or lacking aspects. I don't put my faith in a book and teaching given without permission that may or may not be complete.

 

I do however find it interesting to note, that the book so eagerly quoted as complete and perfect, against all those trying to disprove mo pai, is so eagerly taken with a pinch of salt, when the information therein threatens to shatter your biased sense of reality.  

 

"It is my understanding that MaBu is not a requirement but rather a helpful supplement. If it were absolutely required then it would have been strictly taught and emphasized by Chang to to Jim and Jim to his students."

 

Why would it be clearly emphasized to Jim? You keep assuming you are dealing with a westerner and the way westerner teach and put emphasis on things. 

 

But ok, I will keep quiet now, was more curious about it, not so much wanting to debate it. All the best.

 

It was the Indonesian students who came in claiming that what we call 2a which uses horse stance was merely a supplemental qigong exercise. We do still value and practice 2a, as it was what was taught to us. I will ask again for you to please stop trolling our group.

Edited November 27, 2015 by WIldCat