mopai

[WIldCat]

I'm trying to make a point of not getting dragged into these redundant faux pai debates anymore, but I wanna touch on this because it's one of the things that's always bothered me about MPG and his crew.

 

He claims that his group is practicing genuine Mo Pai and that the books written by Danaos and McMillan are a valid guide to doing so, but in all these discussions I've never once seen the subject of standing meditation come up until now. Meanwhile in his second book, Danaos says this:

 

 

 

So if people really are training in the way advised by MPG and his crew (solely through seated meditation, as far as I'm aware) and ignoring this fairly crucial instruction, they're not only not practicing the genuine training (despite the fact that it's outlined in Danaos' book), they are, according to their own sources, doing themselves potentially debilitating damage.

 

You heard wrong.  Even though the Indonesian students say 2a is only supplementary qigong exercise, we still practice it. 

Edited November 27, 2015 by WIldCat

[WIldCat]

You make the assumption that Chinese Masters use the same logic you do. A stupid example would be The Karate Kid, wax on, wax off. Never being told why they are doing something, just being told to do it. 

 

In the east, you don't ask questions, you get given stuff when you are ready without explanation most of the time. If you are being taught, asking questions is out of the question. It would be extremely rude to ask questions during this time. 

 

But I do not wish to engage in a conversation where western logic is applied to an eastern art. You cannot do this, and the quicker your accept this, they simpler life will be in the pursuit of these arts. I have made the point I wished to make, you not accepting it brings me back to my favourite quote. You guys so desperately want the training available to be complete and true, that you blindly believe it. 

 

Telling me that Jim and Kostas made progress is irrelevant. They had a master guiding them, you guys don't. And to be fair, me being wrong on the matter is of no consequence to me, you guys being wrong about Mabu is. All the best. 

 

As I said before a good number of us studied directly under either Jim directly.  They do understand what they were taught. Please stop trolling our group.

[Chang]

As I said before a good number of us studied directly under either Jim directly.  They do understand what they were taught. Please stop trolling our group.

 

Moderation Message

 

This thread is in the General Discussion Section of the forum. The Rudolf_safie post does not amount to trolling and "Your Group" (whatever that may be) does not lay down rules for posting in this thread.

Please desist from the making of accusatory posts

[WIldCat]

 

Moderation Message

 

This thread is in the General Discussion Section of the forum. The Rudolf_safie post does not amount to trolling and "Your Group" (whatever that may be) does not lay down rules for posting in this thread.

Please desist from the making of accusatory posts

 

Obviously he is trolling our group, I refuse stop pointing out the obvious.

Edited November 27, 2015 by WIldCat

[Chang]

Moderation Message

 

Take this as a final warning WIldCat

 

The making of repeated accusatory posts aimed at this forum, its administrators and its members will not be tolerated.

[WIldCat]

 

Moderation Message

 

Take this as a final warning WIldCat

 

The making of repeated accusatory posts aimed at this forum, its administrators and its members will not be tolerated.

 

I refuse your final warning.

[Chang]

Moderation Message

 

WIldCat has been suspended for seven days for the making continuous inflammatory and accusatory posts against this forum, its administrators and its members.

His future on the forum will be considered.

[小梦想]

.

Edited August 11, 2018 by 小梦想

[thelerner]

, more like the western Mo Pai suicide squad.  He made the same point in 3 threads in row, asked to stop, said no, given a final warning, then said "I refuse your final warning". 

 

Instead of moving on and actually discussing standing and the nature of mo bu in Mo Pai, he seemed to be plugging his ears and repeated saying 'you're a troll' when people were just trying to bring up what could be an important aspect of practice. 

 

To bad the thread was getting back to substance. 

[Wu Ming Jen]

It is clear now, that the mind is very important in leading the Qi. It is also clear that the Qi used for circulation will come from the lower Dantian, as this is the battery of the whole body. But what is the path you lead the energy through? It is the same as driving the car. Without knowing the destination, you will circle around and waste gasoline. In Martial Grand Circulation, the destination is where you need the energy to manifest power. For example, when you are striking, you need to bring the Qi to your arms and hands. But how do we get there from the lower Dantian? Place your mind into your center, and lead the Qi out of the real Dantian, past the Yinjiao cavity, down to the Huyin cavity, then up to the Mingmen. At the same time, open up the Mingmen and lead more Qi out from the real Dantian. Both energy streams will combine and you lead them up to the Shenzhu and Dazhui. From there, you lead it out to the palms and 6 inches further, beyond the physical body. This ensures that the Qi will be lead through the whole arm and it will give your strike more penetrating power. This is the path for the upper half of the body. For the lower half lead the Qi out of the real lower Dantian and push it downwards through the Yongquan (湧泉) cavity into the ground. If the Qi is not needed to energize the leg muscles for strikes, it will give the practitioner a stronger root which is essential to get more power. 

[SonOfTheGods]

A couple of my members have told me my name was mentioned on this thread a few times.

I don't feel the need to defend myself - as I have been respectful and cordial to all involved over the years.


Also, I don't want to cause problems- because as an Admin myself, it can be a difficult job.

I have much respect for the entire DaoBum staff.


 

I am, personally, some what ambivalent towards The MoPai

It is a subject that been obfuscated time and time again.

Here was my contribution to the subject:

The "Official" Mo Pai & "Things You Might Not Know About Real Mo Pai" Thread
Started by SonOfTheGods , Jun 15 2014

thedaobums.com/topic/35217-the-official-mo-pai-things-you-might-not-know-about-real-mo-pai-thread/
 

This current thread, seems to have gone on for over 30+ pages.

Instead of going through this thread and it's split twin, I much rather continue it over at my Forum.

This way it can give the Mod staff, here, some relief (for awhile)


I hold no animosity towards anyone.

I have no agenda.

I have made everything absolutely Free.

We also have Member Practice Logs- and they all seem to be very happy.

You can ask them yourself, too.


The thread will be public- so those who want to view it, can, without registering.

MoPai- Discussion From TaoBums

http://lonemanpai.com/thread/1109/mopai-discussion-taobums?page=1&scrollTo=17491


You will have to sign up if you want to post though.


We have some very advanced members, who I believe (hopefully) will be more than happy to answer any questions about the MoPai.


I do not want to disappoint anyone, but my Forum does Not teach the MoPai.

On the top of Every page of my forum, it has Always stated, the following- (as to Not cause confusion)

______________

LoneMan Pai™ Is SonOfTheGods' Own Personal Self-Contained Bricolage System

Consisting Of An Eclectic, Potent, Internal Alchemical, Hybrid Yoga of

WeiGong, NeiGong, NeiDan, Magick & JinDan Sorcery.

______________

If you have ever been Banned- but would like to join again, then please do.

Hopefully, my approach, is best for all parties involved.

Thank you for your time

 

[soaring crane]

 

 

I don't feel the need to defend myself - as I have been respectful and cordial to all involved over the years.

 

 

Absolutely spot on! :-)

[小梦想]

.

Edited August 11, 2018 by 小梦想

[dayzhaze]

I did find this to be an interesting page of kostas second book. He clearly states that Mabu is required with level 1, and without it damage will be done to yourself. He also states this is directly from John Chang in the form of a story he was told about his understanding of the training he(John Chang) received from Liao. 

 

This is from the book, not something made up by us or our opinions on training. It's the opinion of Kostas, quoted profusely as a pro mo pai tactic. Why quoting it to ask a relevant question regarding the training is it dismissed and regarded as trolling. 

 

Wlldcat came out of the blue, conveniently after Dayshayz was suspended. Then continued to say the same things over and over just like the other man. I wasn't trolling, and was trying my best to be courteous towards you guys. I guess now you will use this as yet another "example" how the mo pai group are being targeted. 

 

I have no words.

 

I would like to point out that indeed level 2a does utilize "ma bu" aka "horse stance".  Jim taught 2a, and we do indeed practice it. The Indonesian students regard 2a as a supplementary exercise. 

Edited November 28, 2015 by dayzhaze

[dayzhaze]

Mopai credits the highest achievement of level 72 to Chang San Feng from Wudang Mountain. This is my linage and I never heard of mopai until joining this forum.  

 

So when a system rides the back draft of a well respected and thousands of years tested tradition I lose respect for the imitators.

 

Mopai students do progress we just need to look close at bank statements, billing, expenses and stuff like that.

 

I am not sure but people may be able to make money like herbalife or something by selling books and stuff, correct me if I am wrong.

 

If anyone ever asks you to pay for such teachings you can be sure it's a scam.  Morepie has never charged me anything, nor anyone else in the group. 

[小梦想]

.

Edited August 11, 2018 by 小梦想

[dayzhaze]

Trying to have a conversation with you is like trying to spit into the wind. You end up regretting trying.

 

No one mentioned level 2, both quotes presented were in relation to level 1. My quote was actually prior to level 1 being started.

 

You see what you want to see, you reply with the same response. Broken record over and over. Oh we are victims, oh we are being bullied, you guys are out to get us, we have a master, they knew what they were taught blah blah blah.

 

I have some paint drying in the other room, and as thrilling as it is waiting to see your completely new and unique response, im guna go watch it and this means won't have time to carry on with this riveting conversation/pointless endevour.

 

Level 1 (meditation), and level 2a (ma bu) are practiced at the same time.

Edited November 28, 2015 by dayzhaze

[Wu Ming Jen]

If anyone ever asks you to pay for such teachings you can be sure it's a scam.  Morepie has never charged me anything, nor anyone else in the group. 

Are you saying you get what you pay for? joking aside I am glad to hear it is not a marketing scheme.

[Infolad1]

I did find this to be an interesting page of kostas second book. He clearly states that Mabu is required with level 1, and without it damage will be done to yourself. He also states this is directly from John Chang in the form of a story he was told about his understanding of the training he(John Chang) received from Liao. 

 

This is from the book, not something made up by us or our opinions on training. It's the opinion of Kostas, quoted profusely as a pro mo pai tactic. Why quoting it to ask a relevant question regarding the training is it dismissed and regarded as trolling. 

 

Wlldcat came out of the blue, conveniently after Dayshayz was suspended. Then continued to say the same things over and over just like the other man. I wasn't trolling, and was trying my best to be courteous towards you guys. I guess now you will use this as yet another "example" how the mo pai group are being targeted. 

 

I have no words.

Rudolf_safie, I really want to commend you for pointing out this great, and missed point.

 

Both standing, and sitting gongs are the basic tech In every legitimate martial art (both 

so called "External", and "Internal") I've ever seen, or trained In.

 

I've trained In the Wu-Tang system of Grandmaster Liu Yun Chiao for the past 10 years.

I've been certified to teach Yang Style Tai Chi Quan for the past 5.

 

Ma Bu is THE key to building your Initial Internal power. Learning correct breathing is

difficult for the average person, so I don't emphasize It until later, once students figure out

the Initial biomechanics. 

 

You start off with 5 minutes, and work your way up to 30 minutes, for martial purposes, 

60+ minutes for cultivation purposes.

 

Mark Cohen's excellent book on Zhan Zhuang Is highly recommended:

 

Inside Zhan Zhuang: First Edition

http://www.amazon.com/Inside-Zhan-Zhuang-Mark-Cohen/dp/0988317885/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=

 

In addition to his Information packed blog:

 

https://insidezhanzhuang.wordpress.com/page/3/

 

Once you understand the structure of the connective tissues, It all comes together:

 

"Excerpts from the articles in Readings on the Scientific Basis of Bodywork and Movement Therapies

by James L. Oschman, Ph.D. and Nora H. Oschman

 

The connective tissue and myofascial systems

 

The connective tissue is a continuous fabric extending throughout the animal body, even into the innermost parts of each cell. All of the great systems of the body --the circulation, the nervous system, the musculo-skeletal system, the digestive tract, the various organs -- all are ensheathed in connective tissue. It is an organ of form, relationship, support, communication, and movement.

 

Connective tissue is a composite material, consisting of strong insoluble collagen fibers embedded in a gel-like ground substance. The fibers are arranged in highly ordered, crystalline arrays. Like many other crystals, connective tissue is piezoelectric, i.e. it generates electric fields when compressed or stretched. Hence any movement of any part of the body, muscle, bone, skin, blood vessel, etc., generates characteristic electrical fields that spread through the surrounding tissues. Since collagen is a semiconductor, the connective tissue is an integrated electronic network that allows all parts of the organism to communicate with each other."

 

Link: http://www.chalicebridge.com/Oschman&Daily/OschmansOnTheirBook.html#anchor11

 

Electric Universe - The Human Story - James Oschman

 

Dr. Oschman has a number of papers on this, that I would cite, given enough time.

 

Brian made a great point about having actual science to back up claims. The above is

a great place to start, along with the following:

 

Qigong as a Traditional Vegetative Biofeedback Therapy: Long-Term Conditioning of Physiological Mind-Body Effects

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4475564/

 

The PDF download is free. Here are important excerpts, with photos:

 

Abstract

A contemporary understanding of Chinese Medicine (CM) regards CM diagnosis as a functional vegetative state that may be treated by vegetative reflex therapies such as acupuncture. Within this context, traditional mind-body exercises such as Qigong can be understood as an attempt to enhance physiological proprioception, by combining a special state of “awareness” with posture, movement, and breath control.

 

We have formerly trained young auditing flutists in “White Ball” Qigong to minimize anxiety-induced cold hands and lower anxiety-induced heart rate. Functional changes occurred 2–5 min after training and were observed over the whole training program, allowing the children to control their symptoms. In our current work, we report that warm fingers and calm hearts could be induced by the children even without Qigong exercises. (Emphasis mine)

 

Thus, these positive changes once induced and “conditioned” vegetatively were stable after weeks of training. This may show the mechanism by which Qigong acts as a therapeutic measure in disease: positive vegetative pathways may be activated instead of dysfunctional functional patterns. The positive vegetative patterns then may be available in critical stressful situations. Qigong exercise programs may therefore be understood as an ancient vegetative biofeedback exercise inducing positive vegetative functions which are added to the individual reactive repertoire.

 

 

2.2. Infrared Thermography

 

Experiments were performed at a mean room temperature of 20°C measured with a type K thermocouple connected to a Lab facility digital thermometer, model 2000L. An Infrared camera from FLIR, model A325 (sensibility < 0.07°C; precision ±2%), was used and supported by a tripod, placed 2 metres away from the target. Capture and image analysis were carried out with the program ThermaCAM Researcher Pro 2.9 from FLIR Systems, and the recording frequency was one photo every ten seconds.

 

Thermograms of the Qigong exercise ((a) before; ( after).

2.3. Qigong Posture and Training

The Qigong exercise selected for this study was the “White Ball” standing exercise according to the Heidelberg Model of TCM as described in detail elsewhere [10]. In brief, the exercise chosen from this system includes a nondynamic basic Qigong posture, similar to the Wu Chi posture in the Zhan Zhuang system [41–43], minimizing the effects of physical movement. In the exercise, the imagination of holding the ball in front of the abdomen (so-called lower Dantian) is used to induce a sensation traditionally referred to as “qi” sensation, similar to “deqi” sensation observed in acupuncture. Children were instructed to do the exercise daily for seven weeks. They had accompanied training for 30 minutes with an experienced Qigong practitioner twice a week.

 

Anyone who wants to demonstrate real, objective proof as to their actual stage of practice, may want to add

 some of the above protocols to their testing. 

 

There have been tests developed to measure magnetic field projection, and far Infrared generation, by Qigong

practitioners.

 

Physical brain changes In the brains of meditators have been measured.

 

We are no longer restricted to subjective, anecdotal evidence for the physical effects of these practices.

 

And we are most assuredly no longer restricted to dated youTube videos that can no longer be directly

verified.

 

"Does It Work? Can You Give Proof That It Works? And Can You Replicate Your Results with Others?"

 

In  other words, a science based system.

 

Unfortunately, a couple of books, an email, and "my master/sifu/etc. said", does not make a system.

Great anecdotal evidence (which should never be discounted), but It wouldn't hold up to peer review.

 

For Mopai, or any system that wants to prove the efficacy of their system, there are physical transformations

that occur In real Neigong/Neidan. Thermal Imaging, MRI, accurate measurements of far Infrared, magnetic

fields, light (a Japanese team finally proved that humans generate bioluminescence), EEG(electroencephalogram),

etc., done by a recognized, accredited third party research team, would verify that your system, and It's

effects, are real to everyone.

 

For those that argue about price, you could initially get some postgraduate students to do It for a fraction of the price.

 

I plan to do exactly that, within the next 3 to 5 years.

 

Again, great stuff Rudolf. Kudos!

Edited November 29, 2015 by Infolad1

[Miffymog]

Ma Bu is THE key to building your Initial Internal power. Learning correct breathing is

difficult for the average person, so I don't emphasize It until later, once students figure out

the Initial biomechanics. 

 

You start off with 5 minutes, and work your way up to 30 minutes, for martial purposes, 

60+ minutes for cultivation purposes.

 

Mark Cohen's excellent book on Zhan Zhuang Is highly recommended:

 

Just to add, there have been times when I've stood for up to 20 minutes, when you do feel the benefits, but currently I'm only standing for 5 mins. Initially I thought is it even worth it as the benefits are significantly less but they are there, it just takes much longer.

[flyinghigh]

Ma Bu is THE key to building your Initial Internal power. Learning correct breathing is

difficult for the average person, so I don't emphasize It until later, once students figure out

the Initial biomechanics. 

 

You start off with 5 minutes, and work your way up to 30 minutes, for martial purposes, 

60+ minutes for cultivation purposes.

 

Are you talking about a low mabu horse stance here or the normally more upright zhanzhuang?

 

What do people think is the main difference between mabu and zhanzhuang?

[soaring crane]

Are you talking about a low mabu horse stance here or the normally more upright zhanzhuang?

 

What do people think is the main difference between mabu and zhanzhuang?

 

good info here:

 

http://www.shaolin.org/general-2/horse-stance.html

[flowing hands]

Most nei gong/qigong has a basic tenant of 'universal stance'. Universal stance is used so that the body is in a neutral position ready to stimulate the forces in the body and to absorb them from the universe. Even the most advance nei gong come back to this stance. Horse stance should only be used briefly, as it has a very strong stimulating effect on various aspects of the body. Horse stance is used in combination with dragon etc. for people with very weak internals. Even so it is not held for long and in martial forms the horse stance is only held for only seconds before the forms take and move on with other stances as the techniques flow from one to the other. Remember that these stances are martial and are not held deeply, but solidly for fractions of seconds. Any stances that are practised too deeply and held too long cannot be applied very easily in real martial circumstances. The flowing between stances and technique must therefore appear to be 'light' and not stolid. Neigong can be extremely powerful and strong; its effect on the body can be drastic.

 

Do not practice any form of neigong without the proper supervision of a reputable teacher and health matters/concerns being disclosed.

[flyinghigh]

Flowing Hands, thanks for your comment.

But I've heard of many martial arts masters/neigong/qigong masters that they had to practice horse stance for quite a long time, one hour up to four hours, like is written about John Chang in Kosta's first book.

[gendao]

Ma Bu is THE key to building your Initial Internal power. Learning correct breathing is difficult for the average person, so I don't emphasize It until later, once students figure out the Initial biomechanics.

Could you explain exactly how (the mechanism) that mabu builds internal power?