mopai

[Chang]

The correct practice of Ma Bu facilitates the movement of energy up the kidney meridian from the legs into the torso, thereby feeding into the microcosmic orbit.

 

I say the correct practice as it is important that the stance opens the kua which allows the progression of chi to move from the legs, through the pelvis and hence into the orbit.

 

The tension created in the muscles of the legs in Ma Bu acts as a pump to expedite the energy along its way.

 

Unfortunately although Ma Bu appears a simple stance to adopt i have seen twenty year practitioners of the Daoist Arts who still fail in the practice of this stance and posture which is so important to internal cultivation.

[JinlianPai]

Mabu builds the internal strength, clears the meridians, fills the vessels, builds a connection to the earth, increases and corrects the chi flow, strengthens the yi, norishes the bones and kidneys.

 

It is a very good beginning practice.

[Infolad1]

Just to add, there have been times when I've stood for up to 20 minutes, when you do feel the benefits, but currently I'm only standing for 5 mins. Initially I thought is it even worth it as the benefits are significantly less but they are there, it just takes much longer.

Miffymog, just do what you can do, the key is to do It consistently.

 

It's the same principle as progressive overload In resistance training.

 

You have to give the body (fascia, bone, etc.) time to adapt to the new stressor.

 

You have to give the lungs time to grow new capillaries, to allow for more blood, and Qi

to flow through them.

 

You have to give the mind time to settle down, to eventually get into a deep alpha brainwave state.

So you also need time to master the fundamentals of diaphragmatic breathing, in order to accomplish this.

 

Consistency, time, hard work, dedication. These are what make up Gong.

 

5 minutes a day of Ma Bu for 5 years, beats out an occasional 20 minute session every time.

 

"Little bit, little bit" is the rule.

 

Always start with a high stance. Only go lower as your kua (the Inguinal fold) open up.

 

And never allow your knees to go beyond your toes. It's a great way to damage your knees.

 

Give yourself 6 months of consistent practice to get to 15 minutes, a year to get to 30, add

an additional 15 minutes every 3 to 6 months.

 

When your body starts to tremble, allow It for a minute, then stop. You've reached your limit.

Use this marker to stay safe.

 

Using the above protocols learned from my Sifu, I've never had any issues, and neither have any of my students.

 

Congratulations on your progress Miffymog. Just keep on truckin' (OMG I just dated myself   )

 

Cheers!

[soaring crane]

The correct practice of Ma Bu 

 

I have a question about that. Since you come from the Kung Fu world and have genuine knowledge about the correct practice, how would you rate the importance of keeping the feet parallel? I can hold a deep mabu for a good long time if my feet are turned outward, it's part of my Fanhuangong. But with the feet parallel, not so much.  It makes a huge difference in the level of effort, and I know that that isn't a personal indiosyncrasy of my own; it's pretty universal.

 

So, from the energetic standpoint, how much would you say the exercise it watered down by angling the feet outward?

[flowing hands]

SC The feet are supposed to be parallel, but anatomically they are supposed to follow the knee alignment and turn out. But one practices with feet parallel for martial technique. After doing this for a long time the knee joint gets used to the awkward position. It is a misnomer about kung fu schools having to put their students through hours of pain standing in low horse stance, particularly through film, this image has been adopted. Horse stance is just a very basic stance, the ability to stand strongly and commit martial techniques comes from being able to lower ones centre of gravity and having very strong legs. Just doing the horse stance will only build the strength in one way. One can stand on one leg on ones tip toes and commit full power into a technique and into a hard object if the right practice has been done. The horse stance is not the best of martial stances to adopt, many people use it the wrong way and it is not easy to move quickly from this stance to another when vital milli-seconds  are vital to ones well being in a real fight.

[flowing hands]

Hi flying High

 

People can write what they like, it doesn't mean that they are right. For instance if I was to get a middle age man to do low, deep horse stance it may be very detrimental to his health. He may have medical problems that would be aggravated by doing this exercise. He may have a tendency to hypertension and the effort and tension in his muscles may raise his blood pressure beyond what would be acceptable. Some young people are also susceptible to this condition and others. When teaching (which I have done for many years) Qigong and martial art to various people one has a duty of care. Some exercise are suitable to some and not to others. One can't randomly teach people the same, the reason why most people want to learn qigong is to improve their health, it would be totally wrong of me as a teacher not to make careful note of each persons body and medical history and then teach them appropriately.

 

In the case of the middle aged hypertensive man, one would avoid teaching stances and techniques that would involve 'tension'. I would teach them relaxation and then exercises and techniques that would allow the blood and Qi to flow far more freely. Getting this person to hurt their legs and produce a lot of tension in their body by doing the horse stance for even 15 minutes would really not achieve anything. Especially only if its come from films of kung fu!

[Chang]

I have a question about that. Since you come from the Kung Fu world and have genuine knowledge about the correct practice, how would you rate the importance of keeping the feet parallel? I can hold a deep mabu for a good long time if my feet are turned outward, it's part of my Fanhuangong. But with the feet parallel, not so much.  It makes a huge difference in the level of effort, and I know that that isn't a personal indiosyncrasy of my own; it's pretty universal.

 

So, from the energetic standpoint, how much would you say the exercise it watered down by angling the feet outward?

 

This is a very good and pertinent question.

 

The human body is all joined up and we cannot move one part of the body without it effecting the whole. The further away you move in the body from the initial movement the less the effect but some effect there still will be.

 

As regards the angle of the foot in MaBu that can be easily explained. The angle of the foot effects the way the femur sits in the pelvis. Place your hand roughly over where the femur joins the pelvis and swivel on your heel. You will feel all of the muscle changes beneath your hand, you will not feel the actual bone rotate in the joint but it is doing so.

 

I would argue that it is of paramount importance to keep the feet parallel in Ma Bu in both Kung Fu and Neigong. Not to do so will effect rooting and the opening of the kua.

 

It is all really down to how you assume the horse stance. If done correctly then there will be no strain on the joint and you will be able to stand for long periods in comfort. It is very difficult to explain in words but is down to the circling of the knee's out, around and back to finish over the body of the foot. This will have the effect of opening the kua (the right side of the pelvis spiralling  clockwise, the left side anti clockwise) at the same time the sacrum will sink, lengthening the spine and facilitating the operation of the sacral pump.

 

It goes beyond this however as once the stance is assumed you can further open the hip by reversing the spiralling action of the hip joint whilst maintaining the position of the knee's above the body of the foot.

 

From a kung fu standpoint this provides greater rooting (it takes a long time to explain in words what you do but once you have it you can assume the posture instantaneously) From a neigong standpoint it effects the flow of energy from the legs through the pelvis and into the microcosmic orbit.

 

Those who perform standing practice can increase the efficiency of their posture tenfold by the use of the correct posture - it really is of the utmost importance and is one of the secrets of opening the energy gates of the body.

 

I practiced zhang zhuang for years but it is really only in the last few that I have unlocked the secrets of using stance and posture correctly. Everything should be expansive with the ligaments coming gently under tension as the joints seperate.

 

I hope that this is of some help.

[Infolad1]

Are you talking about a low mabu horse stance here or the normally more upright zhanzhuang?

 

What do people think is the main difference between mabu and zhanzhuang?

Greetings flyinghigh.

 

As I said to Miffymog, you start with a high stance, and naturally build to a lower stance.

 

You have to give the body time to adapt.

 

It's why In our system we teach Yang style first (higher stance).

 

After 3 years or so, now you have a strength base by which to now do Chen style

without Injury, and with power. (lower stance)

 

A couple of years after that, then you learn Bajiquan (lowest stance).

 

From my experience, Ma Bu, Zhan Zhuang, and Wuji are all the same thing. 

Standing at stake, pole standing, etc. Just different names discussing different

facets of the same practice.

 

I'll reply as I can today. I've got to teach a Qigong seminar this afternoon, so I've got to prep for that.

 

Cheers!

[Infolad1]

This is a very good and pertinent question.

 

The human body is all joined up and we cannot move one part of the body without it effecting the whole. The further away you move in the body from the initial movement the less the effect but some effect there still will be.

 

As regards the angle of the foot in MaBu that can be easily explained. The angle of the foot effects the way the femur sits in the pelvis. Place your hand roughly over where the femur joins the pelvis and swivel on your heel. You will feel all of the muscle changes beneath your hand, you will not feel the actual bone rotate in the joint but it is doing so.

 

I would argue that it is of paramount importance to keep the feet parallel in Ma Bu in both Kung Fu and Neigong. Not to do so will effect rooting and the opening of the kua.

 

It is all really down to how you assume the horse stance. If done correctly then there will be no strain on the joint and you will be able to stand for long periods in comfort. It is very difficult to explain in words but is down to the circling of the knee's out, around and back to finish over the body of the foot. This will have the effect of opening the kua (the right side of the pelvis spiralling  clockwise, the left side anti clockwise) at the same time the sacrum will sink, lengthening the spine and facilitating the operation of the sacral pump.

 

It goes beyond this however as once the stance is assumed you can further open the hip by reversing the spiralling action of the hip joint whilst maintaining the position of the knee's above the body of the foot.

 

From a kung fu standpoint this provides greater rooting (it takes a long time to explain in words what you do but once you have it you can assume the posture instantaneously) From a neigong standpoint it effects the flow of energy from the legs through the pelvis and into the microcosmic orbit.

 

Those who perform standing practice can increase the efficiency of their posture tenfold by the use of the correct posture - it really is of the utmost importance and is one of the secrets of opening the energy gates of the body.

 

I practiced zhang zhuang for years but it is really only in the last few that I have unlocked the secrets of using stance and posture correctly. Everything should be expansive with the ligaments coming gently under tension as the joints seperate.

 

I hope that this is of some help.

Excellent breakdown Chang!   You really know your stuff.

 

Cheers!

[soaring crane]

[flyinghigh]

Hi flying High

 

People can write what they like, it doesn't mean that they are right. For instance if I was to get a middle age man to do low, deep horse stance it may be very detrimental to his health. He may have medical problems that would be aggravated by doing this exercise. He may have a tendency to hypertension and the effort and tension in his muscles may raise his blood pressure beyond what would be acceptable. Some young people are also susceptible to this condition and others. When teaching (which I have done for many years) Qigong and martial art to various people one has a duty of care. Some exercise are suitable to some and not to others. One can't randomly teach people the same, the reason why most people want to learn qigong is to improve their health, it would be totally wrong of me as a teacher not to make careful note of each persons body and medical history and then teach them appropriately.

 

In the case of the middle aged hypertensive man, one would avoid teaching stances and techniques that would involve 'tension'. I would teach them relaxation and then exercises and techniques that would allow the blood and Qi to flow far more freely. Getting this person to hurt their legs and produce a lot of tension in their body by doing the horse stance for even 15 minutes would really not achieve anything. Especially only if its come from films of kung fu!

 

Thanks.

So, you weren't making your comment in general, but only with regard as advice to the general, possibly unconditioned public, right?

[thelerner]

John Chang is the only master who presented tangiable scientific evidence that his spiritual training system is not only real but also efficient.

Reincarnation is most likely a fact.

Isn't having students replicate what you teach the best evidence your art works?  

 

There are people with extraordinary native talent and perhaps others with .. spiritual connections not available to others that can do extraordinary things.   To me the test of an art isn't the teacher but his students.  Imo we don't become the teacher, we don't have the head start, the time, the incredible dedication, native talent; we become the sum of his students. 

[flowing hands]

Hi Flying high

 

Yes, and no, Qi gong, neigong, nei dan, martial arts...... a crocodile pit that many fall into and don't really realise that they have fallen into it until its too late. There is no standard formula on which to use as a bench mark, as we have seen here 27 pages devoted to people who have followed the teachings of mopai. They really don't know whether JC taught Jim properly and they don't know whether jim taught anyone else properly. The nightmare they are in is self perpetuating and sustained by ignorance and a stubborn denial of obvious flaws. So we see backwards and forwards endless debate about what I would consider very basic techniques they are doing and are hoping to achieve some sort of power out of them. Although related, energy arts and martial arts are different and the practices are different to achieve an end, so their on differing paths. Martial art is mostly mechanical, the great thing about Chinese martial arts is that they have a basis on health, so joints, bones and ligaments should all be used with this in mind and were developed so. For instance it is no good trying to hit a dense heavy object without all your joints lined up properly, or with your knuckles. Even with years of conditioning, it is so easy to break your own knuckles when hitting a hard object like someone's skull. So what is the answer? Use a different technique that won't inflict injury upon oneself.

[SonOfTheGods]

Also, in horse stance- when the feet are parallel, it is easier to keep the Kua open, as a micro-shift on the outside of the feet

 

If the feet are at an angle, it is a bit more difficult

[Aeran]

Wow. Interesting and productive discussion in a Mo Pai thread... who knew?

[SonOfTheGods]

If reincarnation was real- it was designed so people could not bypass that mechanism.

 

 

 Back in the day, only the rich could access these teachings.

 

In essence, the elite would never reincarnate, but the poor would.

 

Many lives lost during wars to retrieve these teachings...

 

But it would be okay to murder and escape reincarnation = because some how you could build up your lower Tan Tien just in time.

 

Most likely, these ARE the people who need reincarnation, the "most"

[Infolad1]

good info here:

 

http://www.shaolin.org/general-2/horse-stance.html

Great link Soaring Crane! I clipped It to my Evernote. 

 

Grandmaster Wong Kiew Kit's Ma Bu is excellent. Very powerful.

 

Thanks!

 

Cheers!

[JinlianPai]

In the neikung book Kosta wrote he gives 3 standing meditations. What im curious about is if he did those on a regular basis in his own personal practice.

Edited November 29, 2015 by JinlianPai

[Infolad1]

Most nei gong/qigong has a basic tenant of 'universal stance'. Universal stance is used so that the body is in a neutral position ready to stimulate the forces in the body and to absorb them from the universe. Even the most advance nei gong come back to this stance. Horse stance should only be used briefly, as it has a very strong stimulating effect on various aspects of the body. Horse stance is used in combination with dragon etc. for people with very weak internals. Even so it is not held for long and in martial forms the horse stance is only held for only seconds before the forms take and move on with other stances as the techniques flow from one to the other. Remember that these stances are martial and are not held deeply, but solidly for fractions of seconds. Any stances that are practised too deeply and held too long cannot be applied very easily in real martial circumstances. The flowing between stances and technique must therefore appear to be 'light' and not stolid. Neigong can be extremely powerful and strong; its effect on the body can be drastic.

 

Do not practice any form of neigong without the proper supervision of a reputable teacher and health matters/concerns being disclosed.

You obviously take a very cautious approach to these matters Flowing Hands, which I both agree with, and abide by.

 

I teach classes In Tai Chi, Qigong, and basic self defense at both a senior center, and a local community center here

In Philadelphia, and have done so for going on five years now. Before that, I also taught at my Sifu's studio.

 

I always make a point of modifying the forms, depending on the Individual. You have to.

 

Some of my elder students can't stand, some students are pigeon toed, one was bow-legged. One shattered a

number of bones In a mountain climbing accident. You modify their practice accordingly for them, and make sure

that they only do what they can do.

 

It's why It's always best to get your foundational training In person, by a reputable teacher, which is what I did, and

what I totally agree with you on.

 

But I politely disagree with your statements regarding holding Ma Bu for seconds, and that it only builds strength one way.

 

Standing practice not only builds muscular strength, but as I've cited from various studies, It generates a piezoeletric, pyroelectric, & thermoelectric charge over time.

 

Our body is a storage battery for various forces, which can be Increased, refined, sublimated, and utilized with the correct practices, Ma Bu being one of them. Combined with breathing practices, and creative visualization, it's what

enables you to manifest the various expressions of Jin.

 

Ma Bu is for training purposes. Only In certain transitional movements during our form are you In actual Ma Bu. Bow stance is

the primary martial stance, due to the wider base. The pyramidal structure is far more stable. Also enables you to absorb,

neutralize, and repel incoming energy better.

 

Advanced standing training is holding each stance In the form for multiples of nine breaths, combined with Yi training.

 

If you've trained properly, shifting between stances shouldn't be an issue. Your speed, and cognitive processing

Increases, the more you practice, especially If you train with "Hard" stylists. 

 

But as always, your mileage may vary. I'm just stating my own experience.

 

Gotta run!

 

Cheers!

[soaring crane]

Also, in horse stance- when the feet are parallel, it is easier to keep the Kua open, as a micro-shift on the outside of the feet

 

If the feet are at an angle, it is a bit more difficult

Isn't it the other way 'round? If the hips/kua are highly mobile, the legs can align to the parallel feet in the wide, deep stance. Weight shifting to the edge of the feet, and the arches rounded, arched, making suction cups of the yongchuan. This is all true for basic qigong stance (which is often also called mabu, just narrower and higher - skinny horse/fat horse).

 

I think Chang's post contains the basic ingredients. I had asked about energy flow parallel feet vs angled feet and he made clear that it's a question of kua. Feet turned outward makes the position easier, but the effect is diminished as the kua is closed. The answer isn't straightening the feet but rather opening the groin kua.

 

Btw, sotg, this should be kid's stuff for you! :-)

[SonOfTheGods]

Isn't it the other way 'round? If the hips/kua are highly mobile, the legs can align to the parallel feet in the wide, deep stance. Weight shifting to the edge of the feet, and the arches rounded, arched, making suction cups of the yongchuan. This is all true for basic qigong stance (which is often also called mabu, just narrower and higher - skinny horse/fat horse).

 

I think Chang's post contains the basic ingredients. I had asked about energy flow parallel feet vs angled feet and he made clear that it's a question of kua. Feet turned outward makes the position easier, but the effect is diminished as the kua is closed. The answer isn't straightening the feet but rather opening the groin kua.

 

Btw, sotg, this should be kid's stuff for you! :-)

 

IMO, for myself, when I keep feet parallel, I can easily float the weight to the entire side of my feet.

 

When my feet are angled, I feel the micro-shift more to the top part of outer side / ball of my foot.

 

Might be different for others, depending on flexibility, comfort, etc

 

EDIT: Also, might depend on the width of the stance and how low it is too for balance

Edited November 29, 2015 by SonOfTheGods

[MooNiNite]

If reincarnation was real- it was designed so people could not bypass that mechanism.

 

 

 Back in the day, only the rich could access these teachings.

 

In essence, the elite would never reincarnate, but the poor would.

 

Many lives lost during wars to retrieve these teachings...

 

But it would be okay to murder and escape reincarnation = because some how you could build up your lower Tan Tien just in time.

 

Most likely, these ARE the people who need reincarnation, the "most"

 

You think transcending reincarnation is only done through the practice of alchemical techniques?

[soaring crane]

IMO, for myself, when I keep feet parallel, I can easily float the weight to the entire side of my feet.

 

When my feet are angled, I feel the micro-shift more to the top part of outer side / ball of my foot.

 

Might be different for others, depending on flexibility, comfort, etc

 

EDIT: Also, might depend on the width of the stance and how low it is too for balance

 

Yes, I should have made clear that I was speaking from the perspective of a mere mortal. You're in a whole other category here. In fact, I'd be interested in seeing you performing a deep horse stance. Do yo do it often? For how long?

[SonOfTheGods]

You think transcending reincarnation is only done through the practice of alchemical techniques?

 

No, that was my point.

 

If reincarnation is real, it is climbing a mountain of life times to procure experience, lessons learned, suffering, virtue, patience, integrity, merit, trust, endurance, love and enlightnment.

 

Just acquiring power without all of those is impossible.

 

But some believe that is it possible, thus the myths of spiteful gods playing chess with humans.

Edited November 29, 2015 by SonOfTheGods

[flowing hands]

Hi infolad 1

 

It is funny you know and I'm sure many have heard this before. When one is young, and I started when I was young and now I am old, one has many realisations about what one has done, what one is doing etc. Having learn't and practiced thirteen different styles of Martial art and all these styles the forms are over 150 moves long in one long dance like form, I have come to realise that the very reason the ancient masters invented these forms were for many a reason. It wasn't only because they imitated animals or other forces primarily, because it could have been organised in a different way. It wasn't solely to give the potential warrior internal strength, nor great cardio vascular capacity, but the changing stances, the twisting, the turning, the jumping was all about creating a core and a body that was adaptable and able to change very quickly from one thing to another. If one was to do bench presses for exercise, one would develop those muscles in that way; very useful for bench pressing but not for anything else. Horse stance is good to make you strong, but it is only a tiny part of stance work that creates that flexible and powerful core that a martial artist needs. So why bother with just horse stance, is it not just like bench pressing when we have available so many other stances and ways to move? I remember when I was young taking on the attitude that to hold horse stance for along time was going to be good for me. Well in some respects it was, but in others it was only a small fraction of what I should be doing and then I realised that the more I practiced the exhausting long forms the better it was for me. So no more sitting in horse stance, only temporarily while doing part of an external qigong or martial form, because I was practicing it  stationary and it was not invented to be a stationary stance. It was invented to be a stance that goes from one to the other without sometimes the stance even being noticed that it was there. My point is horse stance is ok, but it is only a small part of a very rich picture which contains yin, yang and the five elements that have been invented for the entire body conditioning, unlike the bench press.

 

I am cautious in what I teach I have seen some bad and funny reactions particularly to some kinds of qigong and I know from my own practice how effective it can be. Qigong is for health and wellbeing, if it has adverse affects on people because of their body type or internal weaknesses, then one has to change it and be aware.