West and East

[Kongming]

For those Westerners who are interested in or consider themselves Daoists (or Easterners interested in Western traditions), have you ever done a comparison of Daoism with the various Western traditions such as European (Greco-Roman, Germanic, Celtic, etc.) paganism, Platonism/Neoplatonism, Hermeticism, Western alchemy, or Christian mysticism? If so, what did you uncover? Did you find such a comparison useful to your own quest?

 

For example, do you think one could see chief deities such as Zeus or Odin as rough equivalents to the Jade Emperor? Mountains like Olympus as rough equivalents to Kunlun?

 

Perhaps we could use this thread to not only discuss the usefulness or ones thoughts on the matter, but also ones findings.

 

I haven't done extensive research into this area, but here are some interesting things to consider that I've mulled over the past few days:

 

--In Germanic mythology, cosmology begins with the Ginnungagap or Great Yawning Void, which is similar to how the Dao was conceived in its Absolute aspect (Wu.) Later, with the meeting of two opposite but complementary forces or "realms" of Muspelheim and Niflheim or fire and ice, the world begins to form. This concept of course is quite similar to yin and yang. Finally, the myths of the giant Ymir and Chinese Pangu are roughly equivalents.

 

--It has been noted that the philosophy and metaphysics of Plotinus and Neoplatonism are markedly similar to Daoism (as well as Vedic/Upanishadic lore), both being a species of monism/panentheism and emanationism  with similar mystical concepts regarding the One.

 

--Hermeticism and the Western esoteric tradition in general place a strong emphasis on the importance of the macrocosm-microcosm, just like Daoism. Furthermore, Hermetic alchemy and Daoist neidan are considered quite similar to each other, such as both seeking the elixir of life and transmutation of the human condition. From Daoist Alchemy in the West: The Esoteric Paradigms by Lee Erwin:

 

 

 

The Five Agents are a product of the deeper Yin-Yang dynamics which originated as a relationship between Yang (light, breath, movement, male heaven) and Yin (darkness, bodily stillness, female earth) in the midst of which emerged the Human (jen) realm of mediation and synthesis. This tripart division of Heaven, Humanity, and Earth each have their correspondent rulers, spirits, and powers. The interactive dynamics of Yin-Yang integration emerges from the Primordial Breath (yuanqi or taiji), the creative energy of Being, which is itself is born of wuqi (Highest Non-Energy). These correlations, which are many and highly diverse within various Daoist systems, were further correlated with the eight trigrams and the sixty four hexagrams of the Yijing, accompanied by multiple Daoist commentaries, associated with many diverse deities, and strong emphasis on astral influences of the Big Dipper constellation (Thunder Magic). All of these associations were tied to ritual and magical practices carried out by trained Daoist masters who were experts in the esoteric lore and visualization techniques of Daoist alchemy and ceremonial invocation. [32] This correlative approach is highly congruent with the western Hermetic tradition rooted in a similar correlative cosmology based in early Greco-Roman alchemy, based on five elements (earth, water, air, fire and aether) transmitted through Islamic alchemical traditions in the form of alchemical and Hermetic cosmological texts which were translated into European languages during the Italian Renaissance. The Hermetic texts were primary sources for western esoteric theories of the prisca theologia and the philosophia perennis and were clearly an early, comparative resource for the esoteric reading of translated Daoist texts. [33]

 

Renaissance correlative cosmology was highly visual (graphic arts) and imagistic in mapping the body, for example Robert Fludd’s microcosmic “atmospheric” depiction of the body or various Kabbalistic theories of the body, in ways more detailed and elaborate but similar to Daoist theories of the “landscape of the body” which contains a multitude of sacred beings, astrological energies, and a tripart division of upper, middle and lower chambers, each with its ruling spirits and cosmological correlations. [34] Renaissance esotericists also used number schemas to elaborate their cosmological symbolism encoded in archetypal patterns of three, seven, nine and twelve, as do many of the Daoist masters, particularly using schemas of three, five, nine, and twelve. Western esotericism has many hierarchical systems in organizing its cosmology as do the many Daoist schools where various planes correspond to specific orders or powers or deities, linked through correlative relationships forming a “chain of being” between the different orders, as illustrated in ~Cornelius Agrippa’s De Occulta Philosophia (1533) and similar to many Yuan dynasty Daoist texts. [35]   However, Daoists have tended toward a less rigidly structured hierarchy and have been tolerant of diversity among the various Daoist esoteric schools. [36]

 

Many texts on Daoist alchemy share resonances with Western esoteric, hermetic practices including the refinement of material substances through various stages of transformation, a search for an immortal elixir or “cinnabar pill”, use of an hermetic vessel or cauldron, occult animal and talismanic (fu) symbolism including special magical scripts, the use of mineral, vegetable and pharmacological substances, secret or orally transmitted instructions (later written down), the use of esoteric visualization (tsun), breath and movement techniques,  reclusive withdrawal from the world, fasting and asceticism, the significance of dreams and a general visionary epistemology, as well as the elusive search for varying degrees of immortality, a particular goal of Daoist practice. Magical practices, with invocations, sacred circles, geomantic inscriptions, carried out with magical implements like the staff or sword, with incense, bells, and chanting are also common aspects of both Daoist and Western esoteric techniques. [37] It was the religious and magical techniques of Daoism that strongly attracted the interests of certain western esotericists, much more than the strictly philosophical texts of early classical Daoism. Mythical stories and imagery, dragon bones and water fairies, the golden peaches of immortality from the gardens of Hsi Wang Mu (Queen of Heaven), as well as the reputed occult powers and abilities of the Daoist masters or “immortals” (xien), both embodied and disembodied, resonate well with the imaginative worlds of western esoteric, magical thought. The Daoist emphasis on “internal” (neidan) alchemy or the distillation of the "Golden Elixir" (jindan) based on ritual, meditation and breath techniques for personal spiritual transformation, as compared to the more “external” (waidan) laboratory practices, also resonated well with late 19th century magical society practices that emphasized personal transformation while the mingling of both alchemical aspects was common in western esoteric traditions. [38] 

 

Also, some snippets from Girardot's Myth and Meaning in Early Daoism: The Theme of Chaos:

 

 

Please do share your own thoughts or findings in these areas.

 

[vonkrankenhaus]

My thought is that all of these things we can look at today are really just remnants and reconstitutions of something much older.

 

I see that ancient artifacts and markings and structures show much thought in common over a wide range, even worldwide.

 

But all of these are lacking due to so many alterations over the last modern era, on top of changes already happening for thousands of years - since last disaster.

 

We can use precession as a clock of the general periods of change and what likely happened.

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[GreytoWhite]

Check out Heraclitus of Ephesus.

[LAOLONG]

Can you translate 100% one language to anther. The sound of the words is different, not every word has a synonym in a different language vocabulary.( what is qi in English). God from right to left is dog, try to translate it.

[Aithrobates]

Reality, obviously, is the same for all ages and all cultures. So of course all traditions are related, and ultimately speak about the same thing. It's just a matter of tricks and ruses, of how to persuade the mind of men and women, in a particular age and culture, using specific devices. But the Reality the traditions are trying to seduce us into experiencing is the same. The one and only.

 

The real problem is to know what are the practical applications of this oneness. I think that it gives us the opportunity to repair what's left of western wisdom with things that are long forgotten here, but still alive there.

 

But to do that, you must first get to know what this western tradition is about. Because we have every reason to flee from this joke of a civilisation and to turn our hearts towards the East, shamanic traditions of the Americas, whatever, etc... in order to find a living spirituality. But in doing so we are like travellers bringing back seeds that can not be grown in the local climate of their homeland.

 

We must grow the local plant in the local soil, and then graft the missing branches from other traditions. Otherwise we will always be in a spiritual exile, and unable to use our spirituality to do something about our western situation.

 

There are remains of some teaching, in greek. If you start reading them, you'll read them all your life. You'll end up ten years later, with some good book about Bön or Daoism, Sufism our Mongolian shamanism, ... reading a very good passage. And you'll sudently see that you knew this already, it was in the greek fragments, but you missed it, lacking the context, the explanation of how it was relevant. And thanks to this investigation of another tradition you'll finally get a teaching from the Greek one.

 

As for the Celtic, Germanic, etc.. traditions: they are as exotic to the modern West as the Chinese or Indian ones are. Because it is the Greek philosophy that evolved into the logic, science, technology, that shaped our world; not them. So what has been said earlier applies to them too.

[Kongming]

My thought is that all of these things we can look at today are really just remnants and reconstitutions of something much older.

 

Yes, this could all be fragmented remains of a the Primordial Wisdom as it were, or as per the philosophy of the Sophia Perennis, the similarities among the traditions of diverse people can be the results of mystics, yogis, occultists, and sages of different groups encountering the same objective structures of reality; likely it is a case of both of these factors.

 

That said, what I wonder is for a Westerner interested in Daoism or an Easterner interested in Western traditions how useful and fruitful such comparisons can be for ones own spiritual quest and whether they can be made in earnest without too much of it being a rough approximation or guessing. Say for example a modern Westerner interested in or studying/practicing Daoism who encounters the examples I mentioned earlier of the Jade Emperor or Kunlun could think, "Yes, this is also what my own ancestors understood as Zeus/Odin and Olympus/Asgard" and thereby not only reinvigorate and give greater meaning to those old but largely dead traditions, but also maintain a sense of history and Western-ness while doing so (or vice versa for the Easterner interested in Western traditions.)

 

On more correlations, how could I forget this one:

 

Many say that the concept of chi/qi is roughly equivalent to the ancient Greek concept of pneuma, but I never investigated the latter in enough detail to say whether it is or not.

 

I wonder also if the Anglo-Saxon concept of "wyrd" has a Daoist equivalent:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wyrd

Edited November 5, 2015 by Kongming

[Kongming]

As for the Celtic, Germanic, etc.. traditions: they are as exotic to the modern West as the Chinese or Indian ones are. Because it is the Greek philosophy that evolved into the logic, science, technology, that shaped our world; not them. So what has been said earlier applies to them too.

 

First let me say I appreciate your reply and agree with the content of your post, and the portion about Western spiritual exile is part of but not the only reason I created this thread. I've noticed a lot of Westerners interested in Eastern traditions sometimes also want to become Easterners and strip themselves of everything Western, but I somehow I feel this is a mistake. It's interesting that when the Chinese and Japanese, for example, received Buddhism, they made this Indian religion Chinese and Japanese respectively, whereas it seems there is none of this occurring with the transmission of Eastern traditions into the West in modern times. Perhaps the general nihilistic and materialist atmosphere that pervades in the West today is preventing this, but ideally what should happen would be for the introduction of these Eastern traditions to be able to provide a means of awakening the spirit that animated the ancient and to lesser extent medieval Western world, whether Greek, Roman, Germanic, or Celtic.

 

As to the point about the Celtic traditions being exotic, I suppose I would agree in part. From what little can be gleamed about the ancient Druidic lore, it seems they were roughly the equivalents to the Brahmins and also shared similar beliefs (indestructibility of the spirit, transmigration, etc.) When one considers the similarities between the Neoplatonic tradition and the Vedic/Upanishadic tradition, one then can assume that the Celts likely also fit into that general schema and therefore wouldn't be entirely exotic.

 

The Germanic traditions largely find their expression in a modified Christian form in medievalism and the heroic tradition therein, perhaps also the German mystical tradition of Eckhart, Tauler, Suso, Cusanus, Boehme, and Angelus Silesius, being as different from mainline Western Christian material as it is, could be a continuation of the old Germanic mystical tradition, which later found expression in a purely philosophical form within German idealism.

Edited November 5, 2015 by Kongming

[Kongming]

Another interesting finding I figured I'd share, from an old book on Yoga in its various forms across the world by William Joseph Flagg discussing the impersonal trinities in Daoism and in Plotinus:

 

[Synchronic]

Yes, this could all be fragmented remains of a the Primordial Wisdom as it were, or as per the philosophy of the Sophia Perennis, the similarities among the traditions of diverse people can be the results of mystics, yogis, occultists, and sages of different groups encountering the same objective structures of reality; likely it is a case of both of these factors.

 

This is what I've always believed, once anyone from anywhere in the world and at any time period reaches some level of "enlightenment" or spiritual wisdom, they will encounter the same experiences and knowledge, regardless of the system used or the prior beliefs held. Pythagoras, Jesus, Buddha, and Lao Tzu probably all would agree with each other if they had the capabilities to speak and understand each other.

[soaring crane]

Wow, great reading material in here, glad this got bumped! :-)

[Wu Ming Jen]

Using Taoism to understand a christian belief....So Mother Mary has a baby without having intercourse so this means that yin and yang reconciled their differences within Mary's body and gave birth to a higher self or it was a test tube baby or gods have sex with mortals all the time or aliens did it or it is not meant to be a literal message of a virgin birth without intercourse.

 

 

OK then there is a snake and an apple or pomegranate and a dumb blond with a belly button who eats it after been told not to. What if the snake represents life, sheds its skin and changes. What would the apple represent? Why does Eve have a belly button? Why is there an authority figure telling Eve what to do? We all still live in the garden of Eden that is obvious and not up for debate.

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

I am a great devotee to the concept of religious pluralism, but having said that, Daoism has one very special concept that other spiritual traditions for the most part are lacking in.

Daoism views the Dao as being accessible through practice, which means that it is not confined merely to the realm of belief.

Daoism also has both the concepts of xing and ming, while many other traditions tend to focus on one or the other.

Having said that, Daoism is no more special than any other tradition, perhaps it is just that it speaks more to some of us than the others do. 

[Gerard]

Having said that, Daoism is no more special than any other tradition, perhaps it is just that it speaks more to some of us than the others do. 

 

Well said, please let me add something else: it's more scientific (backed up by thousands of years of research by sages, alchemists, shamans and hermits) and grounded than the rest. It has got that special touch (balance, yin-man-yang) that the rest are lacking.

[Bearded Dragon]

I think the best thing is that it's a living tradition. Any texts can be backed up experientially or any experience can be explained by the texts. Even without texts it all still exists to be rediscovered. All text and no experience though..... (*cough* 99% of religion *cough*)

[Marblehead]

Using Taoism to understand a christian belief....So Mother Mary has a baby without having intercourse so this means that yin and yang reconciled their differences within Mary's body and gave birth to a higher self or it was a test tube baby or gods have sex with mortals all the time or aliens did it or it is not meant to be a literal message of a virgin birth without intercourse.

I suggest that was borrowed from Greek Mythology.

[Wu Ming Jen]

I suggest that was borrowed from Greek Mythology.

Nice Marblehead, Joseph Campbell from his book the power of myth. Fun stuff looking for the golden thread that runs through all traditions. There is a part in the book where he uses the lens of eastern traditions and applies it to other "stories" from around the world.

 

Lao Tzu is the only one to have ultimate reality and ultimate source as one and the same. Tao rules 

[Kongming]

Bumping this thread this some relevant material I mulled over a few weeks back. Some similarities I've noticed thus far in my studies between Daoism and Celtic pagan traditions:

 

--Both hold to a doctrine of immortality, which I imagine is fairly common in religious discourse in any case but worth mentioning

 

--Arguably both hold to a doctrine of transmigration. The later Daoists under the influence of Buddhism most certainly adopted transmigration doctrines, but even early Daoism has the concept of "bianhua" and the changing of forms in the life cycle.

 

--Both are generally monistic in their outlook and hold to the presence of transcendence within immanence. In Celtic pagan traditions the "Otherworld", conceived here as a timeless, eternal dimension was believed to be present within the mundane world, much in the same way that the Dao is present everywhere.

 

--Both held to doctrines of cyclical time and a fall from a past Golden Age

 

--Both saw the number three as sacred and divided reality into three realms (Heaven, Man, Earth for Daoism and Sky, Earth, Sea for the Celts.)

 

--Both placed importance on the human head as a sacred center (the Niwan center in Daoist esoteric anatomies, the head cult of the ancient Celts.)

 

--Both viewed various power places in nature as sacred spots, particularly mountains (and hills in the case of the Celts) and lakes. Furthermore as per shan shui and many Daoist motifs, mists/clouds were symbols of the numinous and this is also the case with the ancient Celts (usually mists precede an Otherworld journey or encounter.)

 

--Both held notions of immortal or sacred islands (Penglai, Avalon, Tir na Nog, etc.)

 

--Like many traditional cultures and religious traditions, both the Daoists and Celts placed emphasis on cosmological attunement, especially with cycles like the seasons

 

--Both employed the taijitu symbol

[Marblehead]

Thanks for bumping this.

 

Yes, you have had some thoughts regarding this, haven't you?

 

I think that if a religion/belief system is honest there would be a lot more similarities between Eastern and Western thought.  After all, we all are of the human animal species.  The nature of the animal is what it is.

[Aithrobates]

Ancient greek source kept refering to Drudism as a celtic form of Pythagorism. And Pythagorism had all kind of links with Far East (in this context poetically named "Hyperborea").

[Michael Sternbach]

The things treaten by metaphysics are as objectively existent as those treaten by physics. Therefore, the metaphysicists of different times and places are more or less bound to reach the same conclusions.

 

Religions? They are simplified (and often distorted) versions of metaphysics, a surrogate for people that are uninitiated into the knowledge of higher things.

[dust]

Perhaps the general nihilistic and materialist atmosphere that pervades in the West today is preventing this, but ideally what should happen would be for the introduction of these Eastern traditions to be able to provide a means of awakening the spirit that animated the ancient and to lesser extent medieval Western world, whether Greek, Roman, Germanic, or Celtic.

 

Do you really see nihilism at work in general Western society?

 

Materialism, sure.

In the physical/philosophical sense of the word, that existence is 'made' out of 'matter'. As a remnant of Christianity -- the notion that the world was created, put together by a creator, out of 'matter' -- materialism lingers on, even though we are starting to realize that 'matter' isn't really there in that sense.

In the commonly used sense of the word -- that one who loves to buy stuff and have nice things is a 'materialist' -- it's certainly true all over the world, not just the West. Modern Eastern cultures are just as 'materialist' as modern Western ones.

 

Nihilism, though... I don't see that an atmosphere of nihilism "pervades" the West at all. Western philosophy, yes, and this has been true for a long time... but not Western culture, not the life of the average Westerner. People love to believe in the inherent meaning and purpose of life, especially that of human life.

[Kongming]

Do you really see nihilism at work in general Western society?

 

Materialism, sure.

In the physical/philosophical sense of the word, that existence is 'made' out of 'matter'. As a remnant of Christianity -- the notion that the world was created, put together by a creator, out of 'matter' -- materialism lingers on, even though we are starting to realize that 'matter' isn't really there in that sense.

In the commonly used sense of the word -- that one who loves to buy stuff and have nice things is a 'materialist' -- it's certainly true all over the world, not just the West. Modern Eastern cultures are just as 'materialist' as modern Western ones.

 

Nihilism, though... I don't see that an atmosphere of nihilism "pervades" the West at all. Western philosophy, yes, and this has been true for a long time... but not Western culture, not the life of the average Westerner. People love to believe in the inherent meaning and purpose of life, especially that of human life.

 

Well it depends on what you mean. I believe the logical conclusion of materialism, especially modern scientific materialism which is the primary worldview of most of the modern West, is nihilism. In other words, the idea that there is only the physical, that consciousness is a product of matter, that upon the death of the physical organism everything ends, that there is no spiritual reality, etc. 

 

Another extremely prominent view in the modern West which goes hand in hand with materialism is relativism, especially the idea that there is no objective meaning to life, only relative meaning which individuals are free to impart to life as they choose. Again, no real true meaning to life and hence nihilism.

 

Whether everyone who holds these beliefs have fully understood their import and become nihilists is another issue. Perhaps many of them feel intuitively there is a meaning to life and live as though there is one, but in spite of the fact that their own philosophical or ideological framework negates that.

 

I also agree that the modern East is in the same position, though depending on where (say India) it may not be as extreme as the West yet. I believe that these phenomena reflect the fact that we are in an advanced stage of the Kali Yuga or Dharma Ending Age, and so this is to be expected.

 

I wrote what I did based upon the unfortunate nature of the transmission of Eastern wisdom into the West since it is often the case that these Eastern traditions are interpreted or integrated in what I see as a rotten framework, namely that of materialism, relativism, secularism, humanism, etc. Hence what results is distorted versions of Eastern traditions, like Stephen Batchelor's atheistic-materialist Buddhism or a Daoism that is merely about being the Dude from the Big Lebowski rather than profound spiritual doctrines meant to transform oneself. Furthermore, as my thread's original purpose describes, the introduction of this Eastern wisdom under such conditions also does nothing to illuminate what the West already possessed as it well could potentially.

[dust]

Another extremely prominent view in the modern West which goes hand in hand with materialism is relativism, especially the idea that there is no objective meaning to life, only relative meaning which individuals are free to impart to life as they choose. Again, no real true meaning to life and hence nihilism.

 

OK, I can agree that a lot of people think this way, but I'd still stop short of calling it nihilism. Why not existentialism? We've realized that God is not there, that there is no purpose or meaning, but we try to rise above it and find our own...?

 

Either way, does there need to be a belief in the 'meaning of life' or similar notion for one to practice or interpret Buddhism or Daoism? Do all of the Eastern religions/philosophies say "The meaning of life is ... " ?

 

 

I wrote what I did based upon the unfortunate nature of the transmission of Eastern wisdom into the West since it is often the case that these Eastern traditions are interpreted or integrated in what I see as a rotten framework, namely that of materialism, relativism, secularism, humanism, etc.

 

I suppose the reason I'm having trouble might be because I don't see these things as "rotten" or otherwise problematic.

 

I'd suggest that existentialism/relativism/materialism/etc and many Eastern traditions are not mutually exclusive. If one is free to choose their meanings, such traditions can provide solid frameworks for exploration and spiritual growth in ways that traditional/ancient Western culture can't provide. (Spiritual in the sense of psychological, conscious, human, etc, if not in the sense of a literal spirit.)

[Kongming]

 

OK, I can agree that a lot of people think this way, but I'd still stop short of calling it nihilism. Why not existentialism? We've realized that God is not there, that there is no purpose or meaning, but we try to rise above it and find our own...?

 

Nihilism encompasses a variety of notions, such as the idea that "nothing is" but also the idea that with our deaths there is complete annihilation. That's a logical consequence of scientific materialism.

 

As to relative meanings to life, since anyone can make up anything as the meaning of life, what it of course means is that there is no meaning to life. This is also a form of nihilism, sometimes called existential nihilism.

 

In any case, the Dao is essentially an impersonal "God" or Absolute and has descriptively similar equivalents in the Christian tradition (such as that of Pseudo-Dionysius.)

 

 

Either way, does there need to be a belief in the 'meaning of life' or similar notion for one to practice or interpret Buddhism or Daoism? Do all of the Eastern religions/philosophies say "The meaning of life is ... " ?

 

Yes, the meaning of life is to progress spiritually, to become a Buddha or a Daoist sage/zhenren or immortal.

[dust]

Well, we're clearly not going to start agreeing any time soon. But..

 

Nihilism encompasses a variety of notions, such as the idea that "nothing is" but also the idea that with our deaths there is complete annihilation. That's a logical consequence of scientific materialism.

 

The notion that the individual 'self' is an illusion, that the self does not end at the brain, or the skin, but essentially extends to the entire universe, is entirely compatible with a material belief system. The notion that we are all part of the One is, if anything, strengthened by modern science. Existence is change -- "annihilation" need not enter in to it.

 

I know you intend this topic for discussion of similarities between sacred places and other themes in ancient Eastern and Western traditions, but I see no reason to throw modernity out of the window.

 

 

Yes, the meaning of life is to progress spiritually, to become a Buddha or a Daoist sage/zhenren or immortal.

 

The chosen path is to progress spiritually. If you say it is the meaning of your life, it is the meaning of your life -- a meaning that you have chosen. A sage surely realizes that there is a choice.