Immortality vs reincarnation

[Arkx6]

So id like to discuss the Taoist path to spiritual immortality vs reincarnating and aquiring wisdom and experience from many lifetimes.

 

I think that death is part of life and reincarnation brings wisdom and growth and is a path to spiritual evolution.

 

But if we look at internal alchemy and the goal of becomming an immortal...is there evolution for immortals? Is there a different type of evolution that occurs for them?

 

Is reincarnation desirable to you?

 

I have to say i have endured so much pain in my life would i reincarnate if i had a choice? I dont know.

 

Discuss reincarnation vs taoist immortality.

[Aeran]

I don't see why they have to contradict. The soul could reincarnate over and over, slowly developing spiritually until it reaches the stage at which it has nothing more to learn from physical existence - at this point it can work to attain spiritual immortality (ie. the ability to exist in a non-corporeal state permanently and with full awareness, without having to go through the cycle of rebirth) and continue to develop in higher realms of existence and/or work to help other souls from these higher realms (akin to the Boddhisatva ((sp?)) concept). Or it could choose to reincarnate voluntarily to help people from within the material realm.

[子泰]

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Edited November 14, 2015 by 子泰

[Marblehead]

I would opt for reincarnation.  This old body of mine won't be able to handle much more immortality.

[Taoist Texts]

So id like to discuss the Taoist path to spiritual immortality vs reincarnating and aquiring wisdom and experience from many lifetimes.

 

I think that death is part of life and reincarnation brings wisdom and growth and is a path to spiritual evolution.

 

 

“Nakhasikha Sutta”

“Bhikkhus, those who depart from the human realm, those will be reborn as humans or devas can be compared to the few grains of sand that I pickup on my fingernail. Those who are reborn in the lower four realms are exceedingly many, compared to the sand on this great Earth”.

 

{lowest four realms: niraya (hell), asura, animal, and peta realms. Of those four, only the animal realm is visible to us. They are collectively called the apayas.}

[Miffymog]

I'm afraid I'm neither. Our actions leave a permanent imprint on the universe, however significant or insignificant they may be. But for me, in the end, our bodies return to the earth and our awareness turns off.

[vonkrankenhaus]

Our physical conception occurs in the all-dark water realm of the womb.

 

We exist there in 2 parts - placenta and body.

 

Placenta is building the part that will be born.

 

We are then born into the half-light/half-dark air realm.

 

The placenta dies and falls away.

 

The body moves horizontally there, over the surface of the Earth.

 

The body is also existing in 2 parts in this air realm - "body" and "head".

 

Body is reaching full growth in about 18-21 years.

 

Head is continuing, developing "consciousness".

 

Upon "death" in this air realm, physical body dies and falls away.

 

Body was "placenta" and consciousness is new "spirit body".

 

Consciousness body is continuing, and is born into the all-light "spirit" realm.

 

This is part of an immortal process.

 

Are we not the origin of this process?

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[Arkx6]

V interesting discussion!

 

Reaches for popcorn

[Gerard]

You are already an immortal...the difference is changing your 'jacket' in each life cycle (which is what occurs). So this are good news for you! :)

 

However, don't mix physicality with 'spirit', as in thinking one can live eternally in the same body (how painful would that be ) despite both being connected (body-mind link), the former being a projection of the latter and how both interact with each other, damaging the body has its consequences in the 'spirit' and healing the body will heal the spirit and vice versa. It's like various layers of the same thing buth with different qualities, like the Russian dolls (at the very core you have the spirit).

Edited November 9, 2015 by Gerard

[Bearded Dragon]

Perhaps there is reincarnation in religious Taoism. If you're dwelling in the present then there is perhaps no room for such a desire. Immortality is more a discovery than an achievement, thus there's probably not a lot of benefit in talking about it.

[Daeluin]

The repetitious cycle of life and death of one entity might be like a sine wave. Where does it end? Even should the planet die and the sun die, we may still trace the energies though yet more stages of living and dying. To what end?

 

They say the universe is ever expanding, and yet does so from no common point. The mysterious center that exists everywhere yet nowhere, is this where we might find that origin of things?

 

Holding deep integrity, perhaps we might integrate back before the polarities of life and death, of being and non-being, each time unfolding a new layer of immortality, yet never giving in until we fully return to this mysterious source. Do we end up in the realm of the Jade Emperor, or is that yet another side-path? What is going all the way? Would there be anything left? Perhaps we simply reintegrate with the source, return the power the dao gifted to us back to the dao, and pull the universe back together a little more.

Edited November 10, 2015 by Daeluin

[Gerard]

Perhaps there is reincarnation in religious Taoism. If you're dwelling in the present then there is perhaps no room for such a desire. Immortality is more a discovery than an achievement, thus there's probably not a lot of benefit in talking about it.

 

Definitively! Live the present moment 24/7 (harder than you might think! )

 

.....................................................................

 

What is reincarnation or rebirth?

 

 

Why should a butterfly know it was a caterpillar before.

 

 

You are constantly evolving.

 

You are returning slowly to the Tao [you once left 'a million years ago', (time is just symbolic as it only measures change), who knows when as a tiny living being] and the gap becomes smaller with each life cycle.

 

This explains why Taoists don't view rebirth and karma (you behave well and good things come to you, you make mistakes along the way and pay the consequences; morality becomes a major rule the closer you get to the point of origin and return) the same way as Buddhists. Totally different methodologies but deep down very similar, like most religions/spiritual systems.

Edited November 11, 2015 by Gerard

[Marblehead]

Why should a butterfly know it was a caterpillar before.

Ah!  That's transmutation.  That is a concept I do hold to.

[Arkx6]

Who said reincarnation was a desire?

 

Your misinterpreting the teaching of reincarnation for an escapist desire. I rather look at reincarnation just like i think of the sun...My feelings regarding it do not change it simply being a part of nature. Truth is you dont know my motivations for bringing up this topic lol

 

If your mindfulness and living presently does not allow discussing teachings such as reincarnation or anything that doesnt take place in the moment then....maybe its time to go back to the drawing board lol.

 

 

[Wu Ming Jen]

Reincarnation is a buddhist term based on speculation of being reborn after you die. Immortality is the Taoist term for what we are now as we are living.

 

We are mortal when we see beginnings and ends,birth and death and speculate about it.

[Arkx6]

To clarify... by immortality i meant the Nei Dan practice of growing a spiritual embryo that matures into a golden energy body...spiritual immortals.

[Marblehead]

To the best of my knowledge there is no valid evidence to support the theory of reincarnation or immortality.

 

There is, however, lots of evidence to support the theory of transmutation.  It abounds in nature.

[Arkx6]

I think to explore spiritual immortality one needs to know how to astral travel and encounter one of these immortals and to confirm what i am going to say.

 

There are spiritual immortals with golden bodies that are in contact with western groups that do this type of training eg: healing Tao.

In the absence of a spiritual science that can provide proof based on instrument readouts and repeatable tests we are left with seeking our own proof (about the existence of immortals)... astral travel is a good starting place.

 

Dont take what i say but rather learn to astral travel and see for yourself.

 

As for reincarnation there is lots pf evidence eg: many cases of children recalling places and people who it would be impossible to know about.

 

Im reminded of something a teacher of mine has said which is along the lines of: you cannot discover the truth by intellectually debating it, you have to gain first hand experience of it.

Edited November 13, 2015 by Arkx6

[effilang]

So id like to discuss the Taoist path to spiritual immortality vs reincarnating and aquiring wisdom and experience from many lifetimes.

 

I think that death is part of life and reincarnation brings wisdom and growth and is a path to spiritual evolution.

 

But if we look at internal alchemy and the goal of becomming an immortal...is there evolution for immortals? Is there a different type of evolution that occurs for them?

 

Is reincarnation desirable to you?

 

I have to say i have endured so much pain in my life would i reincarnate if i had a choice? I dont know.

 

Discuss reincarnation vs taoist immortality.

 

 

The evolution of the eternal soul is endless, reflecting the infinite nature of the Tao.

There is a continuous and ongoing refinement which takes place without cessation.

 

Refinement does not begin or end with the physical body, but the conditions around which the physical body finds itself in Taiji are usually more conducive to a highly increased rate of development, respective to the spirit occupying the physical vessel.

 

Basically, one of the governing rules of Taiji is that of karma. Actions and relative consequences.

They tie us together energetically and create a dynamic of taking and giving where a debt is paid or accumulated.

 

The debt to another soul can be the result of pain you may have caused them, lies, hurt, death, cheating and so on.

Essentially you can look at it in terms of negative and positive "points" if you will. Each point is shared between two or more individuals or groups of individuals.

 

From a practical point of view, your concern with the positive is that you accumulate more of it by performing good deeds, this creates Gong De or merit if you will, which can then be converted into spiritual skills and energy through spiritual cultivation. So there are two factors, Gong De and Spiritual Cultivation.

 

If you have strong Gong De, accumulated through good deeds, you will have a positive balance, but even so this does not mean you have become an immortal and certainly performing good deeds alone will not grant you this level of attainment, otherwise mother Theresa would be a Xian. What it can grant you however is a choice after death, where you can select where to reincarnate next, or if you'd like to hold of on doing that for some time. How good a life you can pick will depend on your Gong De and how strong your positive balance is. This option is only available to souls with a very strong positive balance, having performed many good deeds. Some of these may even be completely positive, "SAINTS" if you will, but being governed by Taiji law, they are still required to reincarnate. They cannot escape it.

 

So Gong De is just one aspect of the formula of liberation.

The second is spiritual cultivation, which requires a method and a particular course of practice. Such a method is Nei Dan, which helps to transform the acquired condition, revert back to the original nature and unify the whole existential complex into one solid manifestation of the Tao; one that is free of separation on any level, not by mind, not by body, not by energy. When one moves at this level, they move their whole being as one unit, expressing their nature directly and without the refraction of the acquired mind and states. This is when one can become a pure projection of the Tao while also maintaining their own individuality.

 

If one combines Gong De to purify their deeds and pay their debts to others in this life and from former and combines that with spiritual cultivation to develop the Yang Shen body, then one can make very good progress.

 

Bear in mind the Yang Shen body of Taoist immortality is not something that is achieved a kin to flicking a switch on.

It's not the result of some progressive accumulation of energy which then suddenly goes pop and there you are. On the contrary, it is a gradual achievement which comes about in phases and levels of development as one progresses through their spiritual cultivation.

 

When one develops their Yang Shen to a sufficient level, not even the highest level capable within a human body is necessary; then one after death will have full conscious awareness of themselves and their formless original nature. If at this state of their development after death, one has extinguished all their negative karma, by repaying debts to those owed, then one has no obligation to return to the physical realm.

 

That is to say that, even if you achieve a particular level of Yang Shen cultivation which allows you to consciously free yourself of the Taiji law, so that you are no longer subject to the current of reincarnation into the physical dimension, BUT you still haven't paid all your debts, then the job is not yet complete and you will have several options:

 

1. Locate the souls currently expressing themselves in a physical body, to which you owe a debt, then wilfully chose to reincarnate through the natural law of Taiji; enter a new womb and be born of natural birth that you can coincide yourself with that soul in that life and give yourself the opportunity to pay back your karmic debt. When you are done, after you die, you can return to your formerly achieved formless state.

 

- now for logical reasons, not everyone you may owe a debt to may currently be physically manifested in Taiji, because they may have just died or may have other responsibilities, which means that for Shen in this situation the predicament is that they will have to wait until the soul is ready to be born, before they can reincarnate to meet them and neutralize the debt.

 

- there also exists an option for a newly formed Xian, where rather than having to enter Taiji again through the womb of the mother, then can choose to neutralise the debt by heeding the calls to aid the soul or souls to which they owe a debt that are currently manifested in the Taiji realm. This answer can be to a prayer or simply some form of a request, depending on the nature of the debt, the Shen can choose to use his acquired merit and skill to emanate into Taiji in a physical body, using Yang Shen skill and interact with that person and soul in order to help them and repay the debt.

 

This situation is dependent on the type of the debt, because some debts are light while others are heavy. Some can be lessened or broken up into smaller debts, while others cannot be touched in any way, by law of Taiji. One example of such a debt is the debt of life, which is acquired by killing someone. Death is repaid by death, because the value of life cannot be paid back in any other way. Under these circumstances a new Xian, or a cultivator who has developed his Yang Shen sufficiently; after death, will have no other option but to enter Taiji again through a natural birth. In this case, an emanation or an imitation body by reducing it's frequency to match physical matter will not suffice. The body that dies must be real and it must feel the pain and the suffering of death. The weight of these emotions and experiences is the value which derives wisdom and also the currency through which we can neutralise our respective debt.

 

Once a novice Xian has paid of all it's debts, It is completely liberated.

Now, that's not to say that IT MUST paid it's debts immediately or else... no in fact after you have attained the formless state, you can continue to cultivate yourself and accumulate Gong De by helping beings across the fabric of existence, BUT, sooner or later you will have to neutralise all your debts, whether you want to do it 500 years from the life during which you attained Yang Shen or 1000 years later, you will still have to do it. Nobody can escape the law of Taiji, not even those in Wuji, it is the law of the Tao.

 

But if the remaining debt is light, then the Shen will have an option to simply repay it while in it's formless state by some manner of guidance, vision, dreams, or even a physical emanation with an imitation body, should it chose to spend it's energy to maintain the projection into Taiji from Wuji where it resides.

 

Reincarnation is very important and to the eternal soul, the physical body is a VERY desirable state to be in, because it allows for the expedient cultivation of Yang Shen, the acquirement of Wu (wisdom), the accumulation of Gong De through good deeds and the OPPORTUNITY to coincide with souls who owe you a debt or to whom you owe one, in order that the karma can be neutralised. Otherwise we will remain tied to the Taiji dimension of duality, endlessly trapped in the cyclic current of Yin and Yang.

 

So the start of spiritual cultivation begins with taking responsibility for our actions.

Learning to love and accept our body so that we can take care of it and be healthy and strong.

When we are healthy and strong, we want others to be healthy and strong; this is the seed of Gong De.

From here we then begin to perform humanitarian acts and charity, offering assistance to others in myriad ways and making an active effort to make life better and better for all forms of consciousness.

 

When we combine this with spiritual cultivation, one can then say that you are on the path of dual cultivation of Xing and Ming to achieve complete liberation.

 

After you have extinguished your karmic debts and have also achieved Yang Shen, you are free to do what you will.

There are plenty of things to do. You can even apply for a job in the non-physical dimension and assume the form of a guide or a teacher to instruct others in spiritual cultivation, becoming something like the Fu Fa Shen in our school who guide us in Nei Dan, while they accumulate merit from doing so.

Edited November 15, 2015 by effilang

[Arkx6]

So the start of spiritual cultivation begins with taking responsibility for our actions.

Learning to love and accept our body so that we can take care of it and be healthy and strong.

When we are healthy and strong, we want others to be healthy and strong; this is the seed of Gong De.

From here we then begin to perform humanitarian acts and charity, offering assistance to others in myriad ways and making an active effort to make life better and better for all forms of consciousness.

When we combine this with spiritual cultivation, one can then say that you are on the path of dual cultivation of Xing and Ming to achieve complete liberation.

 

After you have extinguished your karmic debts and have also achieved Yang Shen, you are free to do what you will.

There are plenty of things to do. You can even apply for a job in the non-physical dimension and assume the form of a guide or a teacher to instruct others in spiritual cultivation, becoming something like the Fu Fa Shen in our school who guide us in Nei Dan, while they accumulate merit from doing so.

 

That is very interesting can i enquire as to your sources? Sounds like i would like a read of them.

 

I have to say i dont believe in karmic laws to the extent you are describing but i can see the spiritual benefit of acting from such a point of view.

 

I would be interested in hearing more on the Fu Fa Shen who guides your school in their Nei Dan

[Daeluin]

Searching this forum for "fu fa shen" should give some nice info, and effilang drops a bit of info here as well.

[effilang]

That is very interesting can i enquire as to your sources? Sounds like i would like a read of them. I have to say i dont believe in karmic laws to the extent you are describing but i can see the spiritual benefit of acting from such a point of view. I would be interested in hearing more on the Fu Fa Shen who guides your school in their Nei Dan

 

My source and the source of every Tao Yu in our school is the divine. We cultivate directly with divine energy by establishing a spiritual connection to an immortal teacher or mentor god; Fu Fa Shen, also known as a Taoist Xian Shen.This connection is enabled by a cultivator authorized by Tai Shang Lao Jun to transmit the ancient art of Tao Yin Shu; divine or spiritual guidance art.

 

Different students, have different Fu Fa Shen. It is not one Shen that teaches.

There's more information which I've posted in the event section of the forum, you can visit it by clicking the link in my signature to which it is linked.

 

In Hou Tian Nei Dan Shu, the path of refinement is as such:

 

- JING > QI > SHEN and when you raise your awareness to the highest level of SHEN, you can try to break your consciousness out of Taiji and enter Wuji, where you may find a Xian to guide you higher.

 

In Xian Tian Nei Dan Shu, the refinement takes place as in Taoism of old, through divine guidance and a Taoist Xian Shen is responsible for the transmission of the Tao from day 1. The path of cultivation is something like this:

 

- FU FA SHEN > WUJI > SHEN > QI > JING > YANG SHEN > KONG

 

Because of this we develop our spiritual capacities first and as long as the body is kept healthy enough to support further refinement, your 7 Po and 3 Hun will daily solidify into one unit, fundamentally eliminating separation of any form and returning back to the one Tao of origination.

 

In Xiao Yao Pai, we don't believe anything unless we can experience it or prove it; so I can appreciate your comment. You may not believe in the natural laws of Taiji, but they believe in you. Every action and inaction leaves a footprint.

Edited November 17, 2015 by effilang

[Arkx6]

Surely there are written sources that are used that cover the concepts you discuss?

Or any books that cover these topics in detail?

 

Or are the books in question only available to students?

[effilang]

Hi Arkx6,

 

We are not a school of Philosophical Taoism or Religious Taoism.

We only practice the Spiritual side of Taoism.

 

In very blunt terms; to practitioners of our school, that means that anything we can't experience through our own cultivation and our own direct perception, derived from our personal investigation, examination and understanding of a matter is either unverified theory or bullshit. "Woo Woo" if you will.

Even in the Tao Te Ching, Laozi said - The Tao that can be described is not the true Tao.
The mind cannot grasp what is beyond the diapason of it's function; and there is much that is beyond.

 

If you read about sugar in a book, you cannot compare the experience to putting sugar in your mouth.
One brings about wisdom, the other promotes blind faith and blind faith can lead to religious inclinations which trap the awareness from expanding naturally.

 

If we want to find out about something, we have to find a way to experience it and prove it for ourselves.

Otherwise, your beliefs will always based on the experience of someone else and not those of your own life.

Whether these are someone else's experiences which you read in a book, watched in a movie or listened to on tape, they are still someone else's personal experiences, so why waste your time with it? Is it because you want encouragement?

 

Here, I'll give it to you... Here it comes. - "Everything is possible, and every possibility has a consequence".

Now the world is your oyster! How will you open it? You have to find the way.

 

You have to create your own experience and determine the truth for yourself - through yourself.

This is the only valid point of view if you want to expand your wisdom as opposed to fortifying your ignorance and conceptual notions supported by blind faith in the lifetimes of others.

 

Best wishes.

Xuan

Edited November 17, 2015 by effilang

[Arkx6]

I see your point, i was only asking for books out of curiosity for the subject matter. In the absence of any other methods of glimpsing information at my disposal on this subject...books and second hand information is all i have available.

 

For now at least...