Is anyone here familiar with spontaneous qigong? I have some important questions.

[Oneironaut]

What is the major difference between spontaneous qigong and the more formal ones where you adhere to choreographed movements?

 

I'm guessing that spontaneous qigong falls under the category of moving qigong. In that case can these formless forms also be used as a "base" for your moving work? I'm also guessing that this is the case with kunlun.

 

Is one better than the other? If so what are their pros and cons?

[Silent Answers]

Forms have been designed to incorporate specific stretches and qi/blood circulation that are known to have benefit. After practicing them, they become second nature, and meditative.

 

Spontaneous qigong hands control over to the mind of something else, and so is immediately more meditative. Your mind observes the movements but doesn't/shouldn't interfere with them too much, if at all. Instead, we should let our body show us where it wants to go.

 

I'd recommend studying a little about the human body's muscle structure, as seen through eastern eyes. There's some essential info in Damo Mitchell's books.."The Four Dragons" is a good buy. Then, as your body shows you the way, you can understand a bit about what's being expressed, and enhance the stretches in the correct way.

 

There's something to like about both forms of qigong, and both are beneficial. It really depends on what feels better for you, in my opinion.

[Aetherous]

In my opinion, spontaneous qigong follows the forms of energy flow that your body already knows. It's not truly "spontaneous" in the sense of the body doing exactly what is required and perfectly self-healing from the movements that come. Some will disagree but I think this is the truth. Some of the movements can at times be too much for the body, and cause negative reactions in the qi. Sometimes the movements can get stuck in a certain pattern, and you will keep doing the same thing over and over. The movements if extreme can cause microtears in the muscles, destroying your posture and throwing your skeleton out of alignment.

People have said over the years that there is a danger in spontaneous qigong practice. I think it's because of this fact...that it's not truly spontaneous.

You can test it out...do a certain simple form such as raising your arms in front and then lowering them for 5 minutes, and then go "spontaneous". Then after seeing what happens, do a simple form of twisting your torso side to side, and then go spontaneous. The movements change after each "form"...why? If the spontaneous qigong were exactly what you required, then the movements wouldn't change...but the truth is, those simple forms alter the way the energy is flowing, and the "spontaneous" movements are altered as a result.

It's as if spontaneous qigong is just like a dam being opened. The water will flow wherever it most easily goes...perhaps there will be flooding and damaging crops and places where people live. Good forms are like digging pathways which allow the water to flow through them, and by doing so the crops and dwelling areas are kept safe.

If you have done a lot of forms to ensure that the results of qi flow will be good, then perhaps doing some spontaneous qigong will follow the energy flows already created, and have a good result. For people who haven't cultivated in this way, perhaps their qi flows are starting off in a haphazard way, which when spontaneous qigong is added, will have a haphazard result.

 

About Kunlun, in my opinion it's not a spontaneous qigong practice. It's a posture...and when done seated, the legs can shake which is part of the posture. If movements happen that are totally out of your control (although you could stop them), then it's spontaneous movements...but it's not the same as a "spontaneous qigong" where you allow the body to move how "it wants". There's a very distinct difference between the two things, but it's hard to understand. Basically: don't encourage movements but favor stillness. Just my view.

[dust]

Forms have been designed to incorporate specific stretches and qi/blood circulation that are known to have benefit. After practicing them, they become second nature, and meditative.

 

Spontaneous qigong hands control over to the mind of something else, and so is immediately more meditative. Your mind observes the movements but doesn't/shouldn't interfere with them too much, if at all. Instead, we should let our body show us where it wants to go.

 

In my opinion, spontaneous qigong follows the forms of energy flow that your body already knows. It's not truly "spontaneous" in the sense of the body doing exactly what is required and perfectly self-healing from the movements that come.

...

 

If you have done a lot of forms to ensure that the results of qi flow will be good, then perhaps doing some spontaneous qigong will follow the energy flows already created, and have a good result. For people who haven't cultivated in this way, perhaps their qi flows are starting off in a haphazard way, which when spontaneous qigong is added, will have a haphazard result.

 

 

Again sticking my nose in where it doesn't belong..apologies in advance for the foolish rambling.

 

I appreciate both of these comments, and though you seem to be disagreeing, I think there's probably a middle ground. I'm no qigong master, but to look at it for a moment from a more general perspective (of similar practices making use of movement patterns, such as yoga, gymnastics, martial arts, etc):

 

Attempting spontaneous practice of anything without some (in)formative practice is probably not going to be much use, right? One needs to learn how to breathe, speed of movement, the range of potential movements, etc. So one learns a discipline first, from people who have been practicing/training for a long time and have a better understanding than oneself.

 

In any single discipline, there must be a limited number of forms/postures/movements. They should be beneficial -- for flexibility, strength, qi flow, whatever, and for informing the body of possible patterns of breath and movement. Once someone has learnt all the forms/movements in one discipline, practicing them regularly for life at the exclusion of other movements might indeed end up doing more harm than good.

 

Spontaneous practice might then be beneficial: loosening up, breaking free of these forms. But any spontaneous practice within a discipline is going to be somewhat limited to patterns learnt during the (in)formative training; movements will be fairly repetitive, as Aetherous says.

 

These days, I'm trying to learn (some) basics from a number of disciplines: qigong, yoga, gymnastics, athletics, and more. My hope is that each will inform each other, and that though I will never be a master of any, my overall health and energy will be improved beyond what would be gained from mastering one; and any spontaneous practice will have greater potential for spontaneity.

[Silent Answers]

Maybe I've just lost the plot, but with my still limited experience of spontaneous movements, it's a different consciousness/part of my being.

 

I can't say whether it more closely resembles the subconscious mind of my being without the "I", the higher self, a spirit guide...call it what you will, but it's not the everyday "me" suggesting the movements. It's also not based on image communication and attempting to immitate. Certain postures just pull themselves together.

 

Having said that, I do agree that it's probably safer to stick to proven routines.

Edited November 9, 2015 by Silent Answers

[Aetherous]

Here's something to think about...why don't people do spontaneous qigong when they sleep? Or when they meditate and let go of themselves? Such people are generally still, and if they move, it's not seen as a self-healing mechanism, but rather is seen as random firings of the mind and nervous system.

Sometimes movements happen in those cases, such as a sudden jarring. Or if you're being natural, then you tend to go into a more natural position for you individually, which happens prior to sleep...but these things don't resemble what spontaneous qigong commonly looks like.

 

To me, this shows that we have an intention that the body will move "spontaneously" or more accurately "in a way that seems to be out of our control"...then it happens. The intention that we want it to happen is causing it to happen...we hope that it will be a beneficial exercise for us, and that hope causes the delusion of apparently strange qigong movements to appear. In truth, we're causing it to happen subconsciously, and a barely aware part of us is controlling how the movements manifest the entire time.

What are the results that this practice provides? If spontaneous movements were truly guided by a wise intelligence, such as our higher self, a spirit guide, or even the intelligence of the body...then the results from spontaneous qigong would be beneficial and quantifiable. Signs and symptoms of ill health would go from present to absent, and no new signs and symptoms would present themselves. But isn't the truth of spontaneous qigong the opposite in many cases?

The best lesson to take from the word "spontaneous" seems to me to be "to be uncontrived/natural", rather than "to flail about as if being controlled by something else". To be natural is best...this doesn't mean weird movements happen because of the body's intelligence working itself out. The body already self-heals, as best that it can, without weird movements, naturally. It's natural for us to be in control of our body's actions, rather than to pretend that we aren't, while in truth, we're actually the ones causing weird movements with our intention.

[liminal_luke]

Is Kunlun spontaneous movement? I think it depends on the practitioner -- spontaneity isn´t as easy as it sounds. The instruction is to allow the movement to come spontaneously but who can do that? Most people´s movements, while appearing to be outside of conscious control, follow a pattern at least somewhat organized by their (sub)conscious mind. To my mind this is not a bad thing: it´s just part of the learning process, just like with anything else. Most tai chi masters, for instance, start out doing the same lousy tai chi as their classmates -- they just stick with it longer.

Edited November 9, 2015 by liminal_luke

[soaring crane]

Normally, it's qi follows yi.

 

In Zifa/spontaneous qigong, the order is reversed.

 

It's easy to fool yourself and also easy to exacerbate preexisting mental conditions with Zifagong.

[Silent Answers]

@Aetherous

 

I can see where you're coming from, and I'd probably have agreed with this line of thought, were it not for my personal experience.

 

Like I said, I could just be going a bit mad. I don't usually go into a lot of detail or try to explain these things, because I have no real evidence to present...and honestly it does sound a bit crazy, haha.

 

I assume you've reached a point in meditation where time sort of eases off, the ego mind is thoughtless and total peace settles in? It's similar to that in a sense, except I (most of the time) feel/know a female presence decend into/share the space I occupy. It/she has no features, but it's like I can see/know it happen from outside. It's not human, and I hate to use such cliche terms, but more like a devine being of yellow-golden light. It doesn't present itself as devine, it doesn't communicate in words...it simply lets me feel its presence and guides my body.

 

Obviously, others could say that I'm just imagining it. Perhaps I am, but I'm usually a very objective person, and tend not to be easily talked into such ideas. It could be down to lack of oxygen from where my breathing is significantly slower. If I'm wrong, I'm ok to admit that...and if there was a way to prove the experience, it wouldn't bring me any satisfaction. I'm ok either way, but I still enjoy the warmth of that moment.

 

* I want to add, that I don't think this is something unique to me. I feel as if everybody should have this presence when they still the mind.

Edited November 10, 2015 by Silent Answers

[Walker]

To me, this shows that we have an intention that the body will move "spontaneously" or more accurately "in a way that seems to be out of our control"...then it happens. The intention that we want it to happen is causing it to happen...we hope that it will be a beneficial exercise for us, and that hope causes the delusion of apparently strange qigong movements to appear. In truth, we're causing it to happen subconsciously, and a barely aware part of us is controlling how the movements manifest the entire time.

 

Your questions are interesting but your hypothesis here does not cover all circumstances. Spontaneous movements can and do arise in people who have no knowledge that such things as zifagong/spontaneous qigong exist. Sometimes merely practicing still standing or sitting meditation is enough to trigger full-blown "spontaneous qigong," including, for instance, in countries where most people have never heard of qigong, much less what's being discussed here, and this includes in the bodies of people who are actually trying to sit/stand still.

 

As for why such things seem to happen only in connection with "meditation postures" (to my knowledge, anyway, although having seen video footage of Pentacostal revivals and the like, I'm open to the possibility that what they're going through might, sometimes, maybe be related to spontaneous qigong) and not at any random time of day or whilst falling asleep or during sleep, I do not know. I can only venture that certain "meditation postures" have been passed down generation after generation because they do, for whatever reason, clearly have unique effects on the human body, especially when used by a person who is focusing, relaxing, and quieting his/her mind.

Edited November 10, 2015 by Walker

[Diaitadoc]

ZiFaDongGong, properly practiced, opens up blockages and promotes the smooth flow of Qi throughout the body.

 

The idea behind structured, choreographed types of Qigong is that they are intended to unblock and promote circulation to specific areas. Doing these types of movements are useful if there is a specific imbalance or problem, but when that problem is resolved, the continued practice of the Qigong does not provide any more benefit. It is better to move on to another form.

 

Although Zifa movements arise spontaneously and may be quite varied at the beginning of a session, they do tend to settle into a certain repetitive groove. This is normal; the body's natural tendency is to calibrate towards normal, so when the spontaneous movements encounter a blockage, the movements will begin focusing around that blockage in an attempt to unblock it, ie the movement will become repetitive. A single session may involve one or many groupings of repetitive movement - it depends on whether or not the blockage resolves during that session. If it doesn't, the same set of repetitive movements may re-appear during the next sessions, until the blockage resolves... if it does resolve, then the repetitive movement naturally quiets down and spontaneous movement resumes until a new blockage is found.

[Mudfoot]

Spontaneous movements easy becomes stereotyp movements. By creating muscle tension and out-of-alignment you can kick-start any type of movement.

 

Some schools gets so used to this that they automatically do this. I could link to a video of a teacher in a fairly known organisation doing just this, but I feel it would be impolite to point a finger anywhere except at the moon.

 

By relaxing, letting go, and staying aligned, you can have internal spontaneous movements without flailing around like a headless chicken.

[beingnature]

I think there exist different kinds of spontaneous movements, the more spasmic ones and those which look more like normal qigong.For me spontanoeus movement started after a few years of sitting and standing practice from lam kam chuens books with an emphasis on awareness.First it started with new stances , later walking circles and forms that look like xinyi, bagua , taiji mixed and interlinked.When i sit my hands get in different positions, mudras etc.I think i wouldnt look for a method that triggers it but when it happens, let it happen.Now while i write it i think about an interview by mark johnson on youtube where he talks about an calligraphy master who had to paint the horizontal and vertical strokes for several years before he could paint freestyle ...

[Master of no significance]

Hi all, I opened up a thread but noone replied so I thought I ask directly those who engage in these practices:

Anyone practices pontaneous/ZifaGong with Music?

What Kind of Music do you "use/recommend"?

Do you focus your choice on spiritual qualities ("aura", "fragrance", "channeling", "peacefulness" ....) activating rhythm, relaxing mood, enhancing fluidity or hat else?

Thanks

(sorry to bother you on several Threads, will be done VERY soon ;-)