The essence of Buddhism

[RigdzinTrinley]

Not to be partial...

 

In dzogchen there is the upadesha or direct introduction to the nature of mind beyond the 4conceptual extremes

 

That's the fastest path of course

 

If the guru has high realisation and the student has pure view and is of "highest" spiritual capacity - then they can skip establishing the view in this more gradual way, sure

 

Extremely rare specimen of dzogchenpa

(Most people seem to believe they are of highest spiritual capacity...)

 

There is a great tibetan saying: "not knowing the nature of mind, but beating on the corpse of introduction"

 

Neoadvaita confusion and dzogchen confusion seem to be cousins in that sense....

[3bob]

Good luck with that RT....one thing is certain the mind can not give what it is not, for it is only a tool for mental process, which of course has an important place but not that of its master. 

[RigdzinTrinley]

Got it brother,

 

I shall remain silent then _/|\_

[C T]

I appreciate your perspective, however I'm someone who had far too much conceptual knowledge and far too little direct connection with life. I've needed to leave the monasteries, meditation halls and human teachers and venture forth into the 'silence' that can still be found in remote wilderness areas. (Then again, I've found myself to be a Daoist at heart, so my contributions to these Buddhist threads are very much from that perspective.)

Reading the above made me recall the thoughts of Daoist monk Matthieu Ricard...

 

"In the solitude of immaculate nature, each moment is worth its weight in gold [and] brings us closer to the ultimate nature of things. The outside silence opens the doors of the inner silence. Then, the freshness of the present moment nurtures our heart with good qualities. When silence reigns, our mind can easily stretch over the space around us and melt into it. The outside peace and the inner peace are as one." 

[Apech]

It wasn't the philosophical significance of 'unborn' that troubled me - but it's clumsy use in everyday English which makes Buddhism inaccessible to many.

 

Not just this term as well but also the confusing nature of Buddha-speak when it introduces people to the 'non-conceptual' for instance something like this 'the unadorned and unelaborated uncontrived base of apparently perceived phenomena unborn and non-arising in the mind'  (I made this up by the way) - to which the appropriate response would be :

 

Wot?

 

It's an obsession of mine to try to use plain English if possible.

[3bob]

do as you will RT, 

 

"may all beings (which exist) be happy"

[3bob]

yep, or yup    

[C T]

It wasn't the philosophical significance of 'unborn' that troubled me - but it's clumsy use in everyday English which makes Buddhism inaccessible to many.

 

Not just this term as well but also the confusing nature of Buddha-speak when it introduces people to the 'non-conceptual' for instance something like this 'the unadorned and unelaborated uncontrived base of apparently perceived phenomena unborn and non-arising in the mind'  (I made this up by the way) - to which the appropriate response would be :

 

Wot?

 

It's an obsession of mine to try to use plain English if possible.

Many of these descriptions are writers' attempts to describe to the reader essentially what is immaculately profound and inexpressible, and any assigned labels and descriptors, no matter how seemingly accurate, would do the actual experience injustice, yet people try. With a willingness to allow for such, then it need not be a burden to a reader who chance upon such words and phrases. 

 

How would you describe, for example, an experience of perfect bliss in in plain English? I experienced perfect bliss.

It cannot get plainer and more direct than that, but we cannot discount the possibility that there are those who may not be able to grasp the meaning in plainspeak, and therefore, writers and commentators sometimes have to make elaborations to cater for a wider readership. 

 

 

Imo.

[Brian]

May all beings which don't exist be happy, too -- if and when they want to be.

 

[Apech]

Many of these descriptions are writers' attempts to describe to the reader essentially what is immaculately profound and inexpressible, and any assigned labels and descriptors, no matter how seemingly accurate, would do the actual experience injustice, yet people try. With a willingness to allow for such, then it need not be a burden to a reader who chance upon such words and phrases. 

 

How would you describe, for example, an experience of perfect bliss in in plain English? I experienced perfect bliss.

It cannot get plainer and more direct than that, but we cannot discount the possibility that there are those who may not be able to grasp the meaning in plainspeak, and therefore, writers and commentators sometimes have to make elaborations to cater for a wider readership. 

 

 

Imo.

 

 

I think you would just say 'perfect bliss' and people would form their own understanding drawn from experience.  That would be plain English.  Rather than saying something like 'unadulterated pristine euphoric super-sensual affective state' - or whatever.

[Apech]

May all beings which don't exist be happy, too -- if and when they want to be.

 

 

Those non-existent bastards will have happiness whether they want it or not.

[Brian]

 

Those non-existent bastards will have happiness whether they want it or not.

LMAO

[RigdzinTrinley]

In the garden of gentle sanity may you be bombarded by coconuts of mindfulness

~chogyam trungpa rinpoche

[3bob]

lets not forget those other beings between existence and non-existence,  

[Apech]

lets not forget those other beings between existence and non-existence,  

 

 

They need to get off their backsides and start existing ... they can't live on welfare forever you know!

[C T]

I think you would just say 'perfect bliss' and people would form their own understanding drawn from experience.  That would be plain English.  Rather than saying something like 'unadulterated pristine euphoric super-sensual affective state' - or whatever.

Thats like saying you have breakfast in the morning, lunch in the afternoon, and supper in the evening, and let others make of it what they will. 

 

Not sure about other traditions, but really in Vajrayana one of the aims of say mantra recitation over an extended period is to tease the mind to such an extent that the possibility of resting in naked awareness arises effortlessly, not during the actual chanting, but at its point of cessation. Likewise when we read of commentaries that speak of pure lands, thousand arms, diamond-like this or that, etc... one purpose of which is to convey the message that possibilities are limitless, and to this end, we can enjoy unlimited freedom to access the vast array of teachings and adopt ones that best suit our purpose. There is no need to concentrate on discarding those we dont find appealing, just as its not necessary to avoid terms that we think are too flowery or superficial. 

 

In some respect the word 'unborn' for example can represent unfathomable potential. This is quite within the scope of mind training. I dont see anything inappropriate with this word in that context. 

Edited January 14, 2016 by C T

[Apech]

Thats like saying you have breakfast in the morning, lunch in the afternoon, and supper in the evening, and let others make of it what they will. 

 

Not sure about other traditions, but really in Vajrayana one of the aims of say mantra recitation over an extended period is to tease the mind to such an extent that the possibility of resting in naked awareness arises effortlessly, not during the actual chanting, but at its point of cessation. Likewise when we read of commentaries that speak of pure lands, thousand arms, diamond-like this or that, etc... one purpose of which is to convey the message that possibilities are limitless, and to this end, we can enjoy unlimited freedom to access the vast array of teachings and adopt ones that best suit our purpose. There is no need to concentrate on discarding those we dont find appealing, just as its not necessary to avoid terms that we think are too flowery or superficial. 

 

In some respect the word 'unborn' for example can represent unfathomable potential. This is quite within the scope of mind training. I dont see anything inappropriate with this word in that context. 

 

No you are right there is nothing inappropriate in the term unborn - I wasn't saying there was.  But I guess we should let my minor objections rest

Edited January 14, 2016 by Apech

[allinone]

If i am in a driving car i don't witness the movement. But when i look outside the trees are moving, also hearing the engine sound. So the senses are not telling me wrong things but i have wrong idea about that motor is making sound and trees are moving.

 

Also with the same logic if you see a river and see the water is flowing. Its not the river/water what is flowing.

[doc benway]

The word unborn also captures a very specific characteristic of the natural state which really cannot be captured in any other way. Namely, that it transcends birth and death.  It does not begin and does not end.

 

It may be difficult to have a direct experience of this aspect, though not impossible, nevertheless it is an important characteristic that can be quite succinctly expressed by words like unborn and undying.  One reason that identifying and labeling this, or any, characteristic is important is that it can help to distinguish an experience of the natural state as authentic. 

[forestofclarity]

I actually think that, to a  large extent, the ancients made it too difficult. They make it seem like it is so hard. A lot of the old school yogis weren't professional monastics, they were ordinary lay people with families and jobs. 

 

Consider the traditional lines: 

 

 

So close you can't see it

So deep you can't fathom it

So simple you can't believe it

So good you can't accept it

 

trans Ken McLeod

 

Not to be partial...

In dzogchen there is the upadesha or direct introduction to the nature of mind beyond the 4conceptual extremes

That's the fastest path of course

If the guru has high realisation and the student has pure view and is of "highest" spiritual capacity - then they can skip establishing the view in this more gradual way, sure

Extremely rare specimen of dzogchenpa
(Most people seem to believe they are of highest spiritual capacity...)

There is a great tibetan saying: "not knowing the nature of mind, but beating on the corpse of introduction"

Neoadvaita confusion and dzogchen confusion seem to be cousins in that sense....

[3bob]

we would also not want to get unborn mixed up with the undead  

[RigdzinTrinley]

I almost wrote about that yesterday 3bob

[3bob]

RT, wouldn't those in the garden of insanity also need such coconuts?

[RigdzinTrinley]

They'll need bazookas of mindfullness

[RigdzinTrinley]

Or cruise missiles depending on the severity of the disorder