A strange form of suicidality

[Geof Nanto]

From The Red Book;  Carl Jung’s personal diary of his inner transformation......

 

The Desert

 

My soul leads me into the desert, into the desert of my own self. I did not think that my soul is a desert, a barren, hot desert, dusty and without drink. The journey leads through hot sand, slowly wading without a visible goal to hope for? How eerie is this wasteland. It seems to me that the way leads so far away from mankind. I take my way step by step, and do not know how long my journey will last.

 

Why is my self a desert? Have I lived too much outside of myself in men and events? Why did I avoid my self? Was I not dear to myself? But I have avoided the place of my soul. I was my thoughts, after I was no longer events and other men. But I was not my self, confronted with my thoughts. I should also rise up above my thoughts to my own self. My journey goes there, and that is why it leads away from men and events into solitude. Is it solitude, to be with oneself? Solitude is true only when the self is a desert. Should I also make a garden out of the desert? Should I people a desolate land? Should I open the airy magic garden of the wilderness? What leads me into the desert, and what am I to do there? Is it a deception that I can no longer trust my thoughts? Only life is true, and only life leads me into the desert, truly not my thinking, that would like to return to thoughts, to men and events, since it feels uncanny in the desert. My soul, what am I to do here? But my soul spoke to me and said, "Wait." I heard the cruel word. Torment belongs to the desert.

 

Through giving my soul all I could give, I came to the place of the soul and found that this place was a hot desert, desolate and unfruitful. No culture of the mind is enough to make a garden out of your soul. I had cultivated my spirit, the spirit of this time in me, but not that spirit of the depths that turns to the things of the soul, the world of the soul. The soul has its own peculiar world. Only the self enters in there, or the man who has completely become his self, he who is neither in events, nor in men, nor in his thoughts. Through the turning of my desire from things and men, I turned my self away from things and men, but that is precisely how I became the secure prey of my thoughts, yes, I wholly became my thoughts.

 

I also had to detach myself from my thoughts through turning my desire away from them. And at once, I noticed that my self became a desert, where only the sun of unquiet desire burned. I was overwhelmed by the endless infertility of this desert. Even if something could have thrived there, the creative power of desire was still absent. Wherever the creative power of desire is, there springs the soil's own seed. But do not forget to wait. Did you not see that when your creative force turned to the world, how the dead things moved under it and through it, how they grew and prospered, and how your thoughts flowed in rich rivers? If your creative force now turns to the place of the soul, you will see how your soul becomes green and how its field bears wonderful fruit.

 

Nobody can spare themselves the waiting and most will be unable to bear this torment, but will throw themselves with greed back at men, things, and thoughts, whose slaves they will become from then on. Since then it will have been clearly proved that this man is incapable of enduring beyond things, men, and thoughts, and they will hence become his master and he will become their fool, since he cannot be without them, not until even his soul has become a fruitful field. Also he whose soul is a garden, needs things, men, and thoughts, but he is their friend and not their slave and fool.

Edited November 17, 2015 by Yueya

[Nungali]

Thanks for a snippet from his 'unpublished ' works .   I have wanted to read ( at least some of ) the Red and Black books. Publication suppression attracts me   .

 

However ... here  ^  and perhaps now, for me, Jung seems confused ? Especially between soul and self , and what is 'leading' what.     I suppose it could be the translation. 

 

But yes, a man can lose his soul . The problem is, many have a strange  concept , or lack of one, of , not what just the soul is, but what it needs.  Without this, in some relevant form   ( to culture, current paradigm and 'self process' )  the soul will 'die', retreat or begin to express itself in malignant ways . A man who has lost his soul is a hollow man.  If culture and paradigm are right the 'shaman' can retrieve the soul and the man live a vibrant and expressive life again. 

 

 

But we have to understand what it is and what it needs as it is an underpinning driving force that needs expression.

 

 

 

 

[Nikolai1]

I woke up to a lot of thought provoking material, thank you.  Not for the first time I have found that Jung's experience speaks closely to my own.  I don't rule out a return to the world of things, but how this may look is utterly inconceivable.  The life I have led is finished, the ways I have lived are over for me...have lost all appeal or interest.  But this is the only way I know.  

 

The desert is a place in the midst of the world.  I still live and act there, but it is a matter of expediency...there is no involvement of the heart.  This is why its a desert.

 

What will make my heart awaken again is utterly, utterly unpredictable.  I can no longer follow anyone.  Most people are happy to enjoy what the others enjoy.  True, they don't know what this will be next year. but they will feel confident that whatever it is, they too will like it.

 

The desert is a departure from the ways of other people and the search for one's own way.  To live one's own life, to actually do that, is a radically different way of being.  In the desert we learn this.

[Apech]

After the desert is emptiness and after emptiness glory.

 

(I think that's a quote but I have no idea where from).

[3bob]

wise and time tested dharma or universal laws point to us helping each other in various ways (without a lot of trappings attached although some form of workable identity is our vehicle to do so)  Thus if we are helping and relating to people at least to a certain and healthy degree then we are following an important part of dharma instead of falling for the, "I'm suffering and alone" nihilistic mind-set absorbed in it's own anti-dharmic losses.  It's undeniable that we are all in a big boat together (along with personal boats to) kept afloat through ongoing work and purpose - where there is not much time or energy for being stuck in sinking doubts, non-motivation, depression, or an "every dog for himself rat race" that ends in futility, etc. if all our boats, which are worth living for and fighting for through correct dharma's are to be sailed to inner and outer freedom and purpose based on the truth of Spirit, Tao or similar meaning terms. 

 

Besides the platitudes of philosophy and for instance - lots of kids need "us" just as we needed us when we were kids...thus there is unlimited opportunity just in the realm of helping kids in various ways.  So we do something...

Edited November 17, 2015 by 3bob

[Michael Sternbach]

I woke up to a lot of thought provoking material, thank you.  Not for the first time I have found that Jung's experience speaks closely to my own.  I don't rule out a return to the world of things, but how this may look is utterly inconceivable.  The life I have led is finished, the ways I have lived are over for me...have lost all appeal or interest.  But this is the only way I know.  

 

The desert is a place in the midst of the world.  I still live and act there, but it is a matter of expediency...there is no involvement of the heart.  This is why its a desert.

 

What will make my heart awaken again is utterly, utterly unpredictable.  I can no longer follow anyone.  Most people are happy to enjoy what the others enjoy.  True, they don't know what this will be next year. but they will feel confident that whatever it is, they too will like it.

 

The desert is a departure from the ways of other people and the search for one's own way.  To live one's own life, to actually do that, is a radically different way of being.  In the desert we learn this.

 

Deep (or perhaps not so deep) inside, almost everybody has a dream or vision of what they would really like to do in/with their life. This is something that emerges from the unconscious inner self. But, sure enough, the conscious self has objections at hand immediately: "You can't make a living that way", "you're too old", "it would take too much time to build it up", "you don't have the funds for that", "you lack the talent", "the people around you wouldn't approve of it", and so forth. Obviously, what we tell ourselves is often the warnings that we once received from others.

 

Yet these "stupid ideas" are messages from our soul; they are meaningful and should be looked at. Neglecting them is often the reason for our depression. Even if we will possibly never be able to put them into action as such, we might find some form of expressing them that will enrich our life experience and give us satisfaction.

 

What is your secret yearning, Nikolai? Maybe you don't want to say it in public, that would be fine. But you really have not the least idea? Pardon me if I don’t quite buy that...

 

However, if it is in fact so, then you must ask your inner self for a vision to guide you. If that works for the American Indians, why shouldn't it work for you.

[woodcarver]

Become a Sage.

[Everything]

Suicidality is wishing to die because you are suffering and wish to suffer no longer.

 

What I am talking about is the feeling that you cannot possibly continue living. You feel utterly expended. You have no further interest nor motivation to continue. You are not suffering, probably far from it. You simply have nothing left to do and no reason to do it. It feels like the exhaustion of your life force.

 

Can anyone relate to this strange state of mind?

If you feel like you have nothing to do and no reason to do it, you are probably isolated socially and you're scared of all other people because you have thoughts of them being evil or painful towards you. Maybe that's true and maybe that's not. I have not yet discovered the outside world. I'm like a loner in my cave. Only a very luxurous cave. A cave of modern equipment and modern computers and internet.

 

But if I may be joking, the computer is another dimsion unto itself. Well, that is not a joke.

The computer is kinda overwhelming. So chaotic and unrelating information. I am glad atleast you got a name. I can see which thought belongs to who. There is actual communication going on here.

Edited November 17, 2015 by Everything

[Nikolai1]

Deep (or perhaps not so deep) inside, almost everybody has a dream or vision of what they would really like to do in/with their life. This is something that emerges from the unconscious inner self. But, sure enough, the conscious self has objections at hand immediately: "You can't make a living that way", "you're too old", "it would take too much time to build it up", "you don't have the funds for that", "you lack the talent", "the people around you wouldn't approve of it", and so forth. Obviously, what we tell ourselves is often the warnings that we once received from others. Yet these "stupid ideas" are messages from our soul; they are meaningful and should be looked at. Neglecting them is often the reason for our depression. Even if we will possibly never be able to put them into action as such, we might find some form of expressing them that will enrich our life experience and give us satisfaction. What is your secret yearning, Nikolai? Maybe you don't want to say it in public, that would be fine. But you really have not the least idea? Pardon me if I don’t quite buy that... However, if it is in fact so, then you must ask your inner self for a vision to guide you. If that works for the American Indians, why shouldn't it work for you.

This is an astute statement which I need to reflect on.

 

Like lots of people whose interests are not worldly, I find it hard to know what my strengths are because they don't show themselves 'in the world'.  I don't have all the regular people around me saying: 'Nikolai, you're really great at [insert skill] why don't you try that?'  Most people in my life seem completely baffled by me, who I am and what I do.  

 

Discovering what I want to do is difficult because of the lack of desire.  I am fine and without suffering in nearly all situations.

 

I sit in the desert and wait for individual expressions of love to emerge.  Desires that make no sense but are unmistakably there.  On these I shall act, but for now they seem absent,

[Nikolai1]

If you feel like you have nothing to do and no reason to do it, you are probably isolated socially and you're scared of all other people because you have thoughts of them being evil or painful towards you. 

I am not physically isolated.  I have a wife and three kids.  I meet their parents at the school gate, with the Dads I play tennis on a Saturday because tennis is a skill I learnt in what seems like a former life and I have no reason not to go there and make up numbers.

 

The isolation is that deeper sense of kinship.  I no longer empathise with the things that the people do around me.  I am not particpating in my heart.  From the outside I look normal.

[Everything]

I am not physically isolated. I have a wife and three kids. I meet their parents at the school gate, with the Dads I play tennis on a Saturday because tennis is a skill I learnt in what seems like a former life and I have no reason not to go there and make up numbers.

 

The isolation is that deeper sense of kinship. I no longer empathise with the things that the people do around me. I am not particpating in my heart. From the outside I look normal.

Ouch that is so painful my friend. I have the same. I also tennis and it is so boring. I kinda loose faith in civilization. It's all so meaningless and boring. Everything is boring. How can people even listen to music and like it?! Lalalala! WTF is that?!

 

And the psychiaters. Gosh, they don't even know the solution and they pretend to be our doctors. Just take a medicine here and take more part in society. Who are all working towards a common goal. God our leaders must be proud. We're actually moving progressively towards a brighter future. Or are we? Who knows not a meteorite will hit us? Man, f that. I'm not gonna think about that. When it hits, it hits! The fck I care.... pffff. Gettafukoutaheeee.

 

I know. That last one was spelled in a weird manner. Let me spell it correct for myself this time. Hhhhp!... ffffff.... never mind. I'll stay polite. I am talking to myself afterall.

 

Yeah boring old polite right? Ugh... I can't take it. It's such a big lie! If you live polite your whole life it is all a lie! Man fck that! FUCK that! There I said it! The whole world! It is the truth! KIDS MAY HEAR! FUCK FUCK FUCK! JESUS JUST DON'T FUCK IF YOU DONT LIKE IT. NOW STOP BOTHERING US TO STOP SAYING FUCK. I'LL ALWAYS SAY IT UNTILL YOU GROW AN ORGASM!

 

Yes now back to you. Boring old meaningless life. Right? Fucking sucks right?

Edited November 17, 2015 by Everything

[Michael Sternbach]

Fine, Everything.

 

Get everything out.

[Everything]

 

Fine, Everything. Get everything out.

Thanks man. You're a great pal. I definitely needed that. A little bit of confidence you know? Why allways so shy and polite. It makes no sense. But ofcourse you have to think about your kids. They can't hear the F word! WHY THE FUCK NOT!

 

Well anyways. It's not that important. But I think getting angry is better than suiciding. I mean "why the fuck not" was not important. But this is important. Getting angry is bbetter than suicide.

 

Yeah I stuttered there for a second. People who suicide freak me out. Well anyways. Just get angry. Find things to be angry about. It will lift up that feeling and you will feel less depressed in no time.

Edited November 17, 2015 by Everything

[Michael Sternbach]

No worries, Everything. We are just among ourselves.

[Michael Sternbach]

This is an astute statement which I need to reflect on.

 

Like lots of people whose interests are not worldly, I find it hard to know what my strengths are because they don't show themselves 'in the world'.  I don't have all the regular people around me saying: 'Nikolai, you're really great at [insert skill] why don't you try that?'  Most people in my life seem completely baffled by me, who I am and what I do.  

 

Discovering what I want to do is difficult because of the lack of desire.  I am fine and without suffering in nearly all situations.

 

I sit in the desert and wait for individual expressions of love to emerge.  Desires that make no sense but are unmistakably there.  On these I shall act, but for now they seem absent,

 

So you feel a lack of love or companionship in your life?

[Nikolai1]

So you feel a lack of love or companionship in your life?

I feel I lack love for the ways of the world I live in.  It leaves me unable to particpate with emotional zest.  I would love to 'fall in love' with the world and be able to show it.  It pains me that I'm not giving more than I might.

[Michael Sternbach]

I feel I lack love for the ways of the world I live in.  It leaves me unable to particpate with emotional zest.  I would love to 'fall in love' with the world and be able to show it.  It pains me that I'm not giving more than I might.

 

I see.

 

 

On a somewhat more serious note: Go easy on yourself. I think it's a necessary stage that will turn into something else in due time. Thinking of your current annual Tarot card.

Edited November 17, 2015 by Michael Sternbach

[Nikolai1]

I see.

 

 

 

On a somewhat more serious note: Go easy on yourself. I think it's a necessary stage that will turn into something else in due time. Thinking of your current annual Tarot card.

Strangely, that had completely escaped my awareness throughout this conversation.  My current year card for those baffled is number 12 - The Hanged Man.

Edited November 17, 2015 by Nikolai1

[doc benway]

It occurred to me this morning that suicide is dictated by thought and so I followed through with that idea.

 

It is that transient, empty quanta of energy or verbage - that changes constantly, instantaneously, that comes from nowhere and goes nowhere, that tells us so many things, some true and some not - it's that which decides it can no longer tolerate itself....

 

And it destroys the greatest gift we have ever received in this life - our beautiful body, an opportunity to inhabit and embrace this world, experience the world, it just tosses it aside. And if it had waited a bit, no question it would have felt differently because that's what thoughts do, they change. They seem to be nothing more than little energetic offerings, little germs of possibility... what if this? what if that? try this... try that... infinite possibility is offered by thought. It's like a little possibility generating machine.

 

And I do understand the depth of pain and hopelessness that drive people there - I've seen it first hand.

 

Thoughts come and thoughts go...

So good to simply leave them be as they do so.

So sad that we take our lives or the lives of others because they have us so enraptured... so indoctrinated... so enslaved....

 

Anyway, just some ramblings from the morning drive to work.

[ilumairen]

I am glad atleast you got a name. I can see which thought belongs to who. There is actual communication going on here.

 

Good morning to you who call yourself everything. It is nice to see you.

[ilumairen]

I feel I lack love for the ways of the world I live in.  It leaves me unable to particpate with emotional zest.  I would love to 'fall in love' with the world and be able to show it.  It pains me that I'm not giving more than I might.

 

Your mind sure is being judgemental of itself... You are not in a place to give more, and that's ok. Sometimes we have to give to ourselves too - space and openness to just be, to find our balance.

 

******

 

When the fire has diminished to glowing embers we can feel like we are suffocating in the flowing waters of life happening all around us. We are pulled along by the fire of others - with so little of ourselves to offer, all go with the flow - unable even to see the embers still aglow within us. If you can find those embers within you and fan them with a little air, give them a little space, you may just feel a change in your perception of the world around you. But first you have to trust that the embers are still there; you are alive - it cannot be otherwise.

 

All of this is ok. Every little bit of it.

[ilumairen]

Thoughts come and thoughts go...

So good to simply leave them be as they do so.

 

Yes, sometimes we just need to be reminded of this... we are experience, not the thought that would describe the experience, and not the words we find ourselves lost in.

[thelerner]

Perhaps the greatest loss in the modern world is the loss of camaraderie.   Be it the close knit family that eats together, or the bonding group- be it church, temple, 'secret' club even regulars at a bar.  We've gotten too busy and its a soul deep loss when we don't have it.  

 

The solution is simple.  Take the time, find the group and if you can't, roll up your sleeves and create yourself. 

[ilumairen]

Yes, sometimes we just need to be reminded of this... we are experience, not the thought that would describe the experience, and not the words we find ourselves lost in.

 

And... we are the awareness non-conceptualy lying beneath the experience - the clear light within.

[ilumairen]

Perhaps the greatest loss in the modern world is the loss of camaraderie.   Be it the close knit family that eats together, or the bonding group- be it church, temple, 'secret' club even regulars at a bar.  We've gotten too busy and its a soul deep loss when we don't have it.  

 

The solution is simple.  Take the time, find the group and if you can't, roll up your sleeves and create yourself. 

 

I would say, in this moment as we surround a friend who is feeling lost with warmth and support and what feeble words we have to point to the answer within we are just that which your words point towards. So long as there is connection, openness, and spaciousness there is also an acceptance that allows both for this moment of suffering, and a non-demanding, non-asserting, unattached glimmer of hope. In this moment we are that which we seek.