A strange form of suicidality

[Geof Nanto]

Perhaps the greatest loss in the modern world is the loss of camaraderie.   Be it the close knit family that eats together, or the bonding group- be it church, temple, 'secret' club even regulars at a bar.  We've gotten too busy and its a soul deep loss when we don't have it.  

 

The solution is simple.  Take the time, find the group and if you can't, roll up your sleeves and create yourself. 

 

Yes, such groups have literally saved my life. Extremely important. However, I also feel the truth of Jung's perspective....

 

 

The society is an intermediary stage on the way to individuation. The individual is still relying on a collective organisation to effect his differentiation for him; that is, he has not yet recognised that it is really the individual's task to differentiate himself from all the others and stand on his own feet. All collective identities, such as membership in organisations, support of "isms," and so on, interfere with the fulfilment of this task. Such collective identities are crutches for the lame, shields for the timid, beds for the lazy, nurseries for the irresponsible; but they are equally shelters for the poor and weak, a home port for the shipwrecked, the bosom of a family for orphans, a land of promise for disillusioned vagrants and weary pilgrims, a herd and a safe fold for lost sheep, and a mother providing nourishment and growth. It would therefore be wrong to regard this intermediary stage as a trap; on the contrary, for a long time to come it will represent the only possible form of existence for the individual, who nowadays seems more than ever threatened by anonymity. Collective organisation is still so essential today that many consider it, with some justification, to be the final goal; whereas to call for further steps along the road to autonomy appears like arrogance or hubris, fantasticality, or simply folly.

 

Nevertheless, it may be that for sufficient reasons a man feels he must set out on his own feet along the road to wider realms. It may be that in all the garbs, shapes, forms, modes, and manners of life offered to him he does not find what is peculiarly necessary for him. He will go alone and be his own company. He will serve as his own group, consisting of a variety of opinions and tendencies — which need not necessarily be marching in the same direction. In fact, he will be at odds with himself, and will find great difficulty in uniting his own multiplicity for purposes of common action. Even if he is outwardly protected by the social forms of the intermediary stage, he will have no defence against his inner multiplicity. The disunion within himself may cause him to give up, to lapse into identity with his surroundings.

[3bob]

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Edited November 21, 2015 by 3bob

[Nungali]

This is an astute statement which I need to reflect on.

 

Like lots of people whose interests are not worldly, I find it hard to know what my strengths are because they don't show themselves 'in the world'.  I don't have all the regular people around me saying: 'Nikolai, you're really great at [insert skill] why don't you try that?'  Most people in my life seem completely baffled by me, who I am and what I do.  

 

Discovering what I want to do is difficult because of the lack of desire.  I am fine and without suffering in nearly all situations.

 

I sit in the desert and wait for individual expressions of love to emerge.  Desires that make no sense but are unmistakably there.  On these I shall act, but for now they seem absent,

 

I suppose I am confused about the 'desert' metaphor , as I have seen it 'differently' ... but actually, it may because I am looking at the whole process, where you are 'in' a part of the process. 

 

The journey through the desert is a symbol of ones initiation process. It is considered to last a symbolic period of time ; three 'days' , nine 'Moons', etc. 

 

Jesus did it, Mohammed , Abraham, the whole Jewish people ,  and here (in Australia ) it is a very potent force  (I have been with initiated Aboriginals and they stopped and were in awe "Look ... over there ... desert man .... he has high initiation ... we are like white people compared to that fellow. "      And going out into that desert for one's own ' time of solitude' , is a phenomenal experience. 

 

'Magically' , you either come back changed, or someone will come for you.  In my case, someone came for me , 'captured' is the more correct term.  Then I went through a series of initiations where I was eventually offered 'the water of life'.   This is a central and ancient theme.   - Ever read 'Dune' ... the theme was adopted for part of that story. 

 

 

Do not assume that the desert is empty  " ‘The Soul is there in the dust, the red rocks and blue sky, the wind and rain, in the dunes and salt-lakes, in the people, and in the plant and animal life, waiting to be experienced, revealed, revered, by those who would look.’ Stephen D Hopper 

 

Its a bit like the ' dark night of the soul' ..... the big tunnel .  Its just lost and black at first .  Persevere .... invoke the 'psychopomp', even if that is an aspect of your own self. 

 

 

A comment on the 'Tower' (tarot card) seems relevant as well " Break down the fortress of thine individual self, that thy truth may spring free from the ruins" 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

~ Of course, without a guide, or knowledge of what one is doing, it is quiet possible to 'die of thirst' in the desert.  

 

Just as it is for man to 'lose his soul' if it is not nourished.

Edited November 17, 2015 by Nungali

[Nungali]

Thanks man. You're a great pal. I definitely needed that. A little bit of confidence you know? Why allways so shy and polite. It makes no sense. But ofcourse you have to think about your kids. They can't hear the F word! WHY THE FUCK NOT!

 

Well anyways. It's not that important. But I think getting angry is better than suiciding. I mean "why the fuck not" was not important. But this is important. Getting angry is bbetter than suicide.

 

Yeah I stuttered there for a second. People who suicide freak me out. Well anyways. Just get angry. Find things to be angry about. It will lift up that feeling and you will feel less depressed in no time.

 

yes, frustration causes tension ... we want to act on it - somehow  .  We need to  act on it, so we start producing chemicals, like adrenaline, which helps us act quickly.  But if we dont act, we dont 'burn it off' and it stagnates and changes into other chemicals and states ; tension, stress, burn out, and eventually depression.

 

You need to act, do it !  You need to scream and swear - do it!  Just consider right place and circumstance ... or sometimes , they want to carry you off for non-comformity.

 

I 'saved' a woman once. I sorta knew her, she was going off in the middle of town and everyone was holding back , I could see she could be due for another 'visit' to the  psyche ward, so I stepped in. She calmed down a bit after I told her, it was okay, just wrong place. Dont 'not do it' , but come out to my place, way up valley, away from town , go down the river, scream, shout, smash some rocks, rip your clothes off and run around naked ( which she was also want to do int town - a reason for her first incarceration. 

 

I am also reminded of an Irish story; the village wakes up one morning and Paddy is sitting on top of the phone box in the middle of the village.  people want him to get down. They try to convince him. A policeman gets a ladder, halfway up Paddy kicks the ladder, it could be dangerous, even if the policeman gets up there, how to get him down without ricking injury to both. Eventually a friend turns up, "Let me talk to him."  He goes up the ladder, chats and comes back down.

 

"Look, for whatever reason he just wants to stay up there, it isnt hurting anyone, leave him be I say. "  So they did. Later someone chucked a blanket up to him .   The next day he came down.  

 

Maybe he just needed a 'new perspective' on things .... for a while  ?  

[Nungali]

Strangely, that had completely escaped my awareness throughout this conversation.  My current year card for those baffled is number 12 - The Hanged Man.

 

Aha !  I wasnt going to go further with the tarot above ... but here you have it ! 

 

Check out this progression;

 

 

Lower right, going left, after the 'turning point' of "the Great Wheel' ;

 

need for 'Adjustment' , then hanged Man followed by Death and Transformation, then a bit of alchemy and the ART of transformation, the 'Lord of Initiation' into the 'all'  Pan - Devil card, Tower ( as in above post) , the light of the 'star sublime' leading one through the path of The Moon ( or 'dark night' or desert)  and out into the Sun, new dawn, into the new Aeon and a new Universe being created.  

 

Hmmm ... I am also wondering what age you are , re astrological 'returns' and transits.  ... Sterny could be a great help there ? 

[Nungali]

Perhaps the greatest loss in the modern world is the loss of camaraderie.   Be it the close knit family that eats together, or the bonding group- be it church, temple, 'secret' club even regulars at a bar.  We've gotten too busy and its a soul deep loss when we don't have it.  

 

The solution is simple.  Take the time, find the group and if you can't, roll up your sleeves and create yourself. 

 

The great loss IMO is out rites of passage and initiation. In my anthropological studies ( not just in the armchair, I have gone out into the 'field' and actually done some of this stuff) , peoples of different cultures , times and places suffer similar issues, individually and collectively, when they lose this knowledge and process.

 

The whole point of initiation is to connect all these things.  IN our modern world, where it is not considered significant ... and combine that with the damage socially of things like the Industrial revolution , and how now we are considered 'factory automatons' and other unnatural situations (for primates, which we are ) like the breaking down of extended family units into 'nuclear families' . 

 

Of course, modern sensible reasonable 'scientifically minded' man realizes we dont need these 'suspicions' and 'primitive behaviors'  .... every thing runs fine without it . 

 

Does it now ?   ...    I think not ! 

[Nungali]

I would say, in this moment as we surround a friend who is feeling lost with warmth and support and what feeble words we have to point to the answer within we are just that which your words point towards. So long as there is connection, openness, and spaciousness there is also an acceptance that allows both for this moment of suffering, and a non-demanding, non-asserting, unattached glimmer of hope. In this moment we are that which we seek.

 

Indeed! This a special jewel I found present when working with refugees, some of whom were torture victims.   

 

I even met a woman , who manged to emerge, like the Sun and create a new world ... even through this horrific path , part of it was sharing her pain , she showed us where the torture had scarred her, and removed parts of her body. 

 

Even on this 'path' she had emerged radiant . I asked her how she could ever forgive those that did it. Her reply was, she has become transformed, it was bad enough what she endured, but the people that did it to her had an even more difficult path of getting through it, she said, "I dont even know, if I myself had done such a thing to someone, I would have been able to transform myself ... I would probably still be lost and wretched in the process. "

 

She was an Iranian and one of the most physically beautiful and  spiritually beautiful people I have met. 

[Nungali]

Yes, such groups have literally saved my life. Extremely important. However, I also feel the truth of Jung's perspective....

 

 

The society is an intermediary stage on the way to individuation. The individual is still relying on a collective organisation to effect his differentiation for him; that is, he has not yet recognised that it is really the individual's task to differentiate himself from all the others and stand on his own feet. All collective identities, such as membership in organisations, support of "isms," and so on, interfere with the fulfilment of this task. Such collective identities are crutches for the lame, shields for the timid, beds for the lazy, nurseries for the irresponsible; but they are equally shelters for the poor and weak, a home port for the shipwrecked, the bosom of a family for orphans, a land of promise for disillusioned vagrants and weary pilgrims, a herd and a safe fold for lost sheep, and a mother providing nourishment and growth. It would therefore be wrong to regard this intermediary stage as a trap; on the contrary, for a long time to come it will represent the only possible form of existence for the individual, who nowadays seems more than ever threatened by anonymity. Collective organisation is still so essential today that many consider it, with some justification, to be the final goal; whereas to call for further steps along the road to autonomy appears like arrogance or hubris, fantasticality, or simply folly.

 

Nevertheless, it may be that for sufficient reasons a man feels he must set out on his own feet along the road to wider realms. It may be that in all the garbs, shapes, forms, modes, and manners of life offered to him he does not find what is peculiarly necessary for him. He will go alone and be his own company. He will serve as his own group, consisting of a variety of opinions and tendencies — which need not necessarily be marching in the same direction. In fact, he will be at odds with himself, and will find great difficulty in uniting his own multiplicity for purposes of common action. Even if he is outwardly protected by the social forms of the intermediary stage, he will have no defence against his inner multiplicity. The disunion within himself may cause him to give up, to lapse into identity with his surroundings.

 

 

Poor Jung  ... again !   But now I understand ... he is coming from the p[lace of being in a culture that has lost the art of supplying what he needs. 

 

Initiation, in part is that the culture should help fulfill and appreciate that need in the individual, It is only the culture in crisis and the society failing that acts the way he indicates. 

 

Not surprising though, as we are immersed in a failing culture. 

[Geof Nanto]

Poor Jung  ... again !   But now I understand ... he is coming from the p[lace of being in a culture that has lost the art of supplying what he needs. 

 

Initiation, in part is that the culture should help fulfill and appreciate that need in the individual, It is only the culture in crisis and the society failing that acts the way he indicates. 

 

Not surprising though, as we are immersed in a failing culture. 

 

Some excellent posts here Nungali, but no, you don't understand Jung at all. If you are interested you'd have to spend much time reading as his collected works run to about 16 volumes. He is very much aware of all you say and goes much further.

 

Incidentally, just to clear up one small understanding on Jung's concept of the Self....

 

What distinguishes Jungian psychology is the idea that there are two centers of the personality. The ego is the center of consciousness, whereas the Self is the center of the total personality, which includes consciousness, the unconscious, and the ego. The Self is both the whole and the center. While the ego is a self-contained little center of the circle contained within the whole, the Self can be understood as the greater circle.

 

(see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self_in_Jungian_psychology for more info )

Edited November 17, 2015 by Yueya

[Michael Sternbach]

 

Aha !  I wasnt going to go further with the tarot above ... but here you have it ! 

 

Check out this progression;

 

 

Lower right, going left, after the 'turning point' of "the Great Wheel' ;

 

need for 'Adjustment' , then hanged Man followed by Death and Transformation, then a bit of alchemy and the ART of transformation, the 'Lord of Initiation' into the 'all'  Pan - Devil card, Tower ( as in above post) , the light of the 'star sublime' leading one through the path of The Moon ( or 'dark night' or desert)  and out into the Sun, new dawn, into the new Aeon and a new Universe being created.  

 

Hmmm ... I am also wondering what age you are , re astrological 'returns' and transits.  ... Sterny could be a great help there ? 

 

Nice job, Nungungali. Bugglebear! (This is an insider, folks. )

 

Some time ago, we talked about Nikolai's Tarot cards as derived from his birth date (August 23 1976) at length in general, and in particular (ahead of time then) his current annual card, The Hanged Man.

 

http://thedaobums.com/topic/38456-my-theory-on-the-1111-phenomenon/page-10

 

Regarding his cards over the next years which you presented above, you will (now that you know his birth date) notice that there is going to be a break in the series in the year 2019 when The Chariot (VII) will take the place of The Tower (XVI). Your presentation is quite valid nevertheless, insofar two Trumps which share the same numerical value tend to manifest together, at least to a certain degree, as experience showed me.

 

Talking about Nikolai's transits, I had a very quick look, and it was not super conclusive. However, I don't know his exact birth data yet. I may be able to get back to this later.

 

Regarding your post # 24: It brought to mind something I read recently, which made me think, and which I would like to share with you. Hope you like it.

 

"The only people who are afraid of death are the people who are afraid of life ... Warriors we must be!"

[Brian]

If either of you would be interested in taking a deeper look into my cards, I would be interested in what you find.

[Michael Sternbach]

Oh, btw, Nungalus, I would say that you have an excellent understanding of Jung - based on reading so many posts of yours that refer to Jungian psychology, and as somebody whose own work is strongly influenced by Jung. Did I ever mention that he was a friend of my grandfather's?

 

Brian: Stay tuned. I am sure that N and/or I will have something to say about your cards shortly.

Edited November 18, 2015 by Michael Sternbach

[Nungali]

Some excellent posts here Nungali, but no, you don't understand Jung at all. If you are interested you'd have to spend much time reading as his collected works run to about 16 volumes. He is very much aware of all you say and goes much further.

 

Incidentally, just to clear up one small understanding on Jung's concept of the Self....

 

What distinguishes Jungian psychology is the idea that there are two centers of the personality. The ego is the center of consciousness, whereas the Self is the center of the total personality, which includes consciousness, the unconscious, and the ego. The Self is both the whole and the center. While the ego is a self-contained little center of the circle contained within the whole, the Self can be understood as the greater circle.

 

(see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self_in_Jungian_psychology for more info )

 

 

I got that already some time back from my minimal readings, but also I would include the 'persona'  as a product of what you describe as the self or the whole. I think our concept of self is formed and includes 'self' ,as you described , plus its interaction with its external environment. 

 

I also extend the 'upper limit'  of  'super-ego' to beyond 'self'  it seems to have a culturally present 'collective'.  Self, as type of unit of the collective, plays out its internal circulations of the 'parts of self' , via personna, into the  physical social collective.  There it gets physical feedback , which now passes up beyond self into the transpersonal ( which is self, but beyond it as well) , then gives feedback into the personal super-ego . 

 

That is probably too brief and messy,  and it probably isnt Jungian. It is more  astrology and Cabbalistic Tree of Life, morphed into a  psychological map .  Well ... the  psychological map , each natal arrangemant would make it  vary for the individual . 

 

So I dont have that narrow a concept of self. I think its more I dont understand what the Jungian concept of soul is ? 

 

yeah, my take on that is pretty rad different too . 

 

ETA  ;  2 ?   My system works on 3 ... 3 sets of 3 of course . That way it fits in with everything natural  

 

... even Dao - yin yang .   

 

... but we wont go there, as apparently I dont understand that at all either   

Edited November 18, 2015 by Nungali

[Nungali]

If either of you would be interested in taking a deeper look into my cards, I would be interested in what you find.

 

Well, in the Brian deck ,  the Hanged man Looks like this 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

Oh, btw, Nungalus, I would say that you have an excellent understanding of Jung - based on reading so many posts of yours that refer to Jungian psychology, and as somebody whose own work is strongly influenced by Jung. Did I ever mention that he was a friend of my grandfather's?

 

Brian: Stay tuned. I am sure that N and/or I will have something to say about your cards shortly.

 

yes, but also true what I wrote now diverges from Jung and may seem like I havent a clue .

 

Lets just say, when one stands on the shoulders of intrepid pioneers , one can see far . 

 

And down here mate , ya gotta do that ! 

 

 

 

 

(and by the way ... people that say thankyou in Bundjalung  have  .......    good fortune    )

[Nikolai1]

Thanks everyone for your comments.  Jung is a curious one, he talks much about the Quest, yet it is clear that he never completed it for himself and so perhaps never gained that overall perspective that others have on the process.  But he was a brave pioneer, no doubt about that, and, like a great poet, provided us with a fresh and arresting set of words and concepts with which to understand spiritual growth.

 

Great article here if anyone fancies a spot of light reading:

 

http://www.jrhaule.net/Chan.html

[Geof Nanto]

Thanks everyone for your comments.  Jung is a curious one, he talks much about the Quest, yet it is clear that he never completed it for himself and so perhaps never gained that overall perspective that others have on the process.  But he was a brave pioneer, no doubt about that, and, like a great poet, provided us with a fresh and arresting set of words and concepts with which to understand spiritual growth.

 

Great article here if anyone fancies a spot of light reading:

 

http://www.jrhaule.net/Chan.html

 

Thanks. I've browsed that article and it's certainly well researched. However Jung is so extensive, any single article can only be partial of course. And that article was written before the publication of his Red Book; now acknowledged as the central book of Jung's oeuvre,  I've been reading his works for almost 30 years and I still find new meaning in his words. 

 

"Jung is a curious one, he talks much about the Quest, yet it is clear that he never completed it for himself"  Actually he did complete it. His Red Book gives the account of his 'vision quest' and initiation by 'spirit' itself into ineffable mystery..... 

 

"The years, of which I have spoken to you, when I pursued the inner images, were the most important time of my life. Everything else is to be derived from this. It began at that time, and the later details hardly matter anymore. My entire life consisted in elaborating what had burst forth from the unconscious and flooded me like an enigmatic stream and threatened to break me. That was the stuff and material for more than only one life. Everything later was merely the outer classification, the scientific elaboration, and the integration into life. But the numinous beginning, which contained everything, was then."

 

These are the words of the psychologist C. G. Jung in 1957, referring to the decades he worked on The Red Book from 1914 to 1930. Although its existence had been known for more than eighty years, The Red Book was never made available to Jung's students and followers until it was published to wide acclaim in 2009. 

Edited November 18, 2015 by Yueya

[ilumairen]

Great article here if anyone fancies a spot of light reading:

 

http://www.jrhaule.net/Chan.html

 

Thank you for the article Nikolai. The following quote speaks directly to what I have recently/am currently experiencing - my mythology found, yet not entirely acknowledged.

 

**********

 

"This interior mythological adventure begins in threat and the dissolution of our identity. The entire unconscious takes on the appearance of our "shadow" immoral, immature, awkward, unadapted, and above all threatening us with insanity. This is the period when the Sun Hero realizes that the realm of darkness cannot be avoided. Successful analytic work at this stage results in our discovery of powerful new values in that "subterranean sea". The unconscious takes on the mystery and allure of a figure that generates erotic interest. Generally it is personified as an attractive but dangerous figure of the opposite sex ("anima" in men, "animus" in women) who inspires us with interest and passion to undertake new adventures: "A man who is not on fire is nothing..."

 

*********

 

And it is a very real, ordinary and exceptional man that my unconscious is dancing with... and I am not so very unconscious of this.

[Geof Nanto]

I got that already some time back from my minimal readings, but also I would include the 'persona'  as a product of what you describe as the self or the whole. I think our concept of self is formed and includes 'self' ,as you described , plus its interaction with its external environment. 

 

I also extend the 'upper limit'  of  'super-ego' to beyond 'self'  it seems to have a culturally present 'collective'.  Self, as type of unit of the collective, plays out its internal circulations of the 'parts of self' , via personna, into the  physical social collective.  There it gets physical feedback , which now passes up beyond self into the transpersonal ( which is self, but beyond it as well) , then gives feedback into the personal super-ego . 

 

 

So I don't have that narrow a concept of self. I think its more I don't understand what the Jungian concept of soul is ?

 

A good question. He uses Christian terms such as ‘soul’ but only as a means of describing the reality of his own otherwise ineffable experiences.  There are many references to the soul in his collected works but these are expressed in his more detached scientific language. (For example, in 1921, Jung equated the Hindu notion of Brahman/Atman with the self.  At the same time, he provided a definition of the soul. He argued that the soul possessed qualities that were complementary to the persona, containing those qualities that the conscious attitude lacked. This complementary character of the soul also affected its sexual character, so that a man had a feminine soul, or anima, and a woman had a masculine soul, or animus.)

 

For me his raw experiences are more revealing and these can be found in The Red Book. I’ve included a sample passage below, and I’m interested what you and others here make of what he was experiencing……

 

 

Refinding the Soul ¹

 

When I had the vision of the flood in October of the year 1913 [foretelling the coming devastation of WW1], it happened at a time that was significant for me as a man. At that time, in the fortieth year of my life, I had achieved everything that I had wished for myself. I had achieved honor, power, wealth, knowledge, and every human happiness. Then my desire for the increase of these trappings ceased, the desire ebbed from me and horror came over me .² The vision of the flood seized me and I felt the spirit of the depths, but I did not understand him. Yet he drove me on with unbearable inner longing and I said:

 

"My soul, where are you? Do you hear me? I speak, I call you—are you there? I have returned, I am here again. I have shaken the dust of all the lands from my feet, and I have come to you, I am with you. After long years of long wandering, I have come to you again. Should I tell you everything I have seen, experienced, and drunk in? Or do you not want to hear about all the noise of life and the world?

 

But one thing you must know: the one thing I have learned is that one must live this life.

 

This life is the way, the long sought-after way to the unfathomable, which we call divine. There is no other way, all other ways are false paths. I found the right way, it led me to you, to my soul. I return, tempered and purified. Do you still know me? How long the separation lasted! Everything has become so different. And how did I find you? How strange my journey was! What words should I use to tell you on what twisted paths a good star has guided me to you? Give me your hand, my almost forgotten soul. How warm the joy at seeing you again, you long disavowed soul. Life has led me back to you. Let us thank the life I have lived for all the happy and all the sad hours, for every joy, for every sadness. My soul, my journey should continue with you. I will wander with you and ascend to my solitude.³

 

The spirit of the depths forced me to say this and at the same time to undergo it against myself, since I had not expected it then. I still labored misguidedly under the spirit of this time, and thought differently about the human soul. I thought and spoke much of the soul. I knew many learned words for her, I had judged her and turned her into a scientific object.⁴ I did not consider that my soul cannot be the object of my judgment and knowledge; much more are my judgment and knowledge the objects of my soul. Therefore the spirit of the depths forced me to speak to my soul, to call upon her as living and self-existing being. I had to become aware that I had lost my soul.

 

From this we learn how the spirit of the depths considers the soul: he sees her as a living and self-existing being, and with this he contradicts the spirit of this time for whom the soul is a thing dependent on man, which lets herself be judged and arranged, and whose circumference we can grasp. I had to accept that what I had previously called my soul was not at all my soul, but a dead system.⁵ Hence I had to speak to my soul as to something far off and unknown, which did not exist through me, but through whom I existed.

 

He whose desire turns away from outer things, reaches the place of the Soul. ⁶ If he does not find the soul, the horror of emptiness will overcome him, and fear will drive him with a whip lashing time and again in a desperate endeavor and a blind desire for the hollow things of the world. He becomes a fool through his endless desire, and forgets the way of his soul, never to find her again. He will run after all things, and will seize hold of them, but he will not find his soul, since he would find her only in himself. Truly his soul lies in things and men, but the blind one seizes things and men, yet not his soul in things and men. He has no knowledge of his soul. How could he tell her apart from things and men? He could find his soul in desire itself, but not in the objects of desire. If he possessed his desire, and his desire did not possess him, he would lay a hand on his soul, since his desire is the image and expression of his soul.

 

1. In the text, Jung identifies the white bird as his soul. For Jung's discussion of the dove in alchemy, see Mysterium Coniunctionis (1955/56) (CW 14, §81)-

 

2. In his lecture at the ETH on June 14,1935, Jung noted: "A point exists at about the thirty-fifth year when things begin to change, it is the first moment of the shadow side of life, of the going down to death. It is clear that Dante found this point and those who have read Zarathustra will know that Nietzsche also discovered it. When this turning point comes people meet it in several ways: some turn away from it; others plunge into it; and something important happens to yet others from the outside. If we do not see a thing Fate does it to us."

 

 3. Jung later described his personal transformation at this time as an example of the beginning of the second half of life, which frequently marked a return to the soul, after the goals and ambitions of the first half of life had been achieved.

 

4. Jung is referring here to his earlier work. For example, he had written in 1905, “Through the associations experiment we are at least given the means to pave the way for the experimental research of the mysteries of the sick soul”.

 

5. The Draft continues: -a dead system that I had contrived, assembled from so-called experiences and judgments"

 

6. In 1913, Jung called this process the introversion of the libido. 

Edited November 18, 2015 by Yueya

[Nungali]

Thank you for the article Nikolai. The following quote speaks directly to what I have recently/am currently experiencing - my mythology found, yet not entirely acknowledged. ********** "This interior mythological adventure begins in threat and the dissolution of our identity. The entire unconscious takes on the appearance of our "shadow" immoral, immature, awkward, unadapted, and above all threatening us with insanity. This is the period when the Sun Hero realizes that the realm of darkness cannot be avoided. Successful analytic work at this stage results in our discovery of powerful new values in that "subterranean sea". The unconscious takes on the mystery and allure of a figure that generates erotic interest. Generally it is personified as an attractive but dangerous figure of the opposite sex ("anima" in men, "animus" in women) who inspires us with interest and passion to undertake new adventures: "A man who is not on fire is nothing..." ********* And it is a very real, ordinary and exceptional man that my unconscious is dancing with... and I am not so very unconscious of this.

 

 

Wonderful ... that last part ... wonderful!

 

Do you know of Philemon ( I assume Yueya does ) ... seems 'male' ... so ? ? ?

 

Also Blavatski's 'King John' .... here a male for a female.

 

In the depths of Jung trying to figure out Philemon ... that is where, according to straight psychology , Jung was 'crazy'.

 

Perhaps the idea of having a 'crazy' founder of their own psychological system was the reason the red and Black Books were suppressed from publication for so long ?

 

So as not to be misinterpreted, I dont think it is is crazy at all .

 

I will stick this up yet again .

 

http://www.searchwithin.org/download/presence_spirits.pdf

 

 

and as well refer to Hamlet - 1.5 , 167 - 168

 

Edited November 19, 2015 by Nungali

[doc benway]

A good question. He uses Christian terms such as ‘soul’ but only as a means of describing the reality of his own otherwise ineffable experiences.  There are many references to the soul in his collected works but these are expressed in his more detached scientific language. (For example, in 1921, Jung equated the Hindu notion of Brahman/Atman with the self.  At the same time, he provided a definition of the soul. He argued that the soul possessed qualities that were complementary to the persona, containing those qualities that the conscious attitude lacked. This complementary character of the soul also affected its sexual character, so that a man had a feminine soul, or anima, and a woman had a masculine soul, or animus.)

For me his raw experiences are more revealing and these can be found in The Red Book. I’ve included a sample passage below, and I’m interested what you and others here make of what he was experiencing……

 

 

Refinding the Soul ¹

 

When I had the vision of the flood in October of the year 1913 [foretelling the coming devastation of WW1], it happened at a time that was significant for me as a man. At that time, in the fortieth year of my life, I had achieved everything that I had wished for myself. I had achieved honor, power, wealth, knowledge, and every human happiness. Then my desire for the increase of these trappings ceased, the desire ebbed from me and horror came over me .² The vision of the flood seized me and I felt the spirit of the depths, but I did not understand him. Yet he drove me on with unbearable inner longing and I said:

 

"My soul, where are you? Do you hear me? I speak, I call you—are you there? I have returned, I am here again. I have shaken the dust of all the lands from my feet, and I have come to you, I am with you. After long years of long wandering, I have come to you again. Should I tell you everything I have seen, experienced, and drunk in? Or do you not want to hear about all the noise of life and the world?

This is very interesting to me. When I was about the same age, I went through something of a similar experience. Mine seemed to be generated by an attempt to wrap my head around the depth and breadth of human depravity and violence. This was in the aftermath of the Rwandan and Bosnian genocides. I was also struggling with my relationships with my wife and children at the time. I had a great job, good income, everything a person could need and yet I understand what he means by the "unbearable inner longing."

 

I was looking to connect with something genuine, something loving, something that would not so much support as complete me. I felt like it was there, it was elusive but it was there. How to approach and connect? How to relate? How to open the heart without being destroyed?

 

 

But one thing you must know: the one thing I have learned is that one must live this life.

 

This life is the way, the long sought-after way to the unfathomable, which we call divine. There is no other way, all other ways are false paths. I found the right way, it led me to you, to my soul. I return, tempered and purified. Do you still know me? How long the separation lasted! Everything has become so different. And how did I find you? How strange my journey was! What words should I use to tell you on what twisted paths a good star has guided me to you? Give me your hand, my almost forgotten soul. How warm the joy at seeing you again, you long disavowed soul. Life has led me back to you. Let us thank the life I have lived for all the happy and all the sad hours, for every joy, for every sadness. My soul, my journey should continue with you. I will wander with you and ascend to my solitude.³

How do we reconnect? Through a book or a method or practice? That may work for some, but not all. Others need nothing. Clearly the only place to look if one is serious is directly into oneself. And such an important step in our lives to let go of the superficial niceties of blindness, the conditioned addictions, and embrace our potential for going beyond and reaching the more subtle and profound inner levels of being. 

 

The spirit of the depths forced me to say this and at the same time to undergo it against myself, since I had not expected it then. I still labored misguidedly under the spirit of this time, and thought differently about the human soul. I thought and spoke much of the soul. I knew many learned words for her, I had judged her and turned her into a scientific object.⁴ I did not consider that my soul cannot be the object of my judgment and knowledge; much more are my judgment and knowledge the objects of my soul. Therefore the spirit of the depths forced me to speak to my soul, to call upon her as living and self-existing being. I had to become aware that I had lost my soul.

Our journey often begins in the intellect, in knowledge, where else can we start? With luck it will lead beyond that to a realization that mind is not within us, rather we are within mind. To grasp mind, to grasp our soul is to miss it. The wonderful Anam Cara by John O'Donohue offers a beautiful and poetic discussion of the body existing within the soul rather than the other way around. 

 

From this we learn how the spirit of the depths considers the soul: he sees her as a living and self-existing being, and with this he contradicts the spirit of this time for whom the soul is a thing dependent on man, which lets herself be judged and arranged, and whose circumference we can grasp. I had to accept that what I had previously called my soul was not at all my soul, but a dead system.⁵ Hence I had to speak to my soul as to something far off and unknown, which did not exist through me, but through whom I existed.

 

He whose desire turns away from outer things, reaches the place of the Soul. ⁶ If he does not find the soul, the horror of emptiness will overcome him, and fear will drive him with a whip lashing time and again in a desperate endeavor and a blind desire for the hollow things of the world. He becomes a fool through his endless desire, and forgets the way of his soul, never to find her again. He will run after all things, and will seize hold of them, but he will not find his soul, since he would find her only in himself. Truly his soul lies in things and men, but the blind one seizes things and men, yet not his soul in things and men. He has no knowledge of his soul. How could he tell her apart from things and men? He could find his soul in desire itself, but not in the objects of desire. If he possessed his desire, and his desire did not possess him, he would lay a hand on his soul, since his desire is the image and expression of his soul.

 

1. In the text, Jung identifies the white bird as his soul. For Jung's discussion of the dove in alchemy, see Mysterium Coniunctionis (1955/56) (CW 14, §81)-

 

2. In his lecture at the ETH on June 14,1935, Jung noted: "A point exists at about the thirty-fifth year when things begin to change, it is the first moment of the shadow side of life, of the going down to death. It is clear that Dante found this point and those who have read Zarathustra will know that Nietzsche also discovered it. When this turning point comes people meet it in several ways: some turn away from it; others plunge into it; and something important happens to yet others from the outside. If we do not see a thing Fate does it to us."

 

 3. Jung later described his personal transformation at this time as an example of the beginning of the second half of life, which frequently marked a return to the soul, after the goals and ambitions of the first half of life had been achieved.

 

4. Jung is referring here to his earlier work. For example, he had written in 1905, “Through the associations experiment we are at least given the means to pave the way for the experimental research of the mysteries of the sick soul”.

 

5. The Draft continues: -a dead system that I had contrived, assembled from so-called experiences and judgments"

 

6. In 1913, Jung called this process the introversion of the libido. 

This last part is such an insightful view of our frustrated attempts at connecting and how they can affect us. The source of our pain, our addictions, our lack of satisfaction with life. Could it be any more Buddhist in its indictment of attachment?

 

So what is the soul that Jung is describing?

I think that in his way, he is writing a poetic account of that which is unaccountable. He avoids pointing too directly knowing it will miss the mark. I suspect he is hinting at something shy and elusive, something better seen in dim candlelight than in the harsh glare of digital LED. The soul compliments him, it offers the feminine to his explicit masculinity. It is everything he is not and yet it is not 'other.' How personal is it? How collective is it? Who is to say with authority? To say is to be mistaken. It is vastly more valuable than "honor, power, wealth, knowledge, and every human happiness." It is that within which knowledge and judgment dwell, it is that within which we dwell...  Thank you for sharing this Yueya - it's the first I've seen of it and it is beautiful.

 

Here is an extraordinary verse from a precious Bön dzogchen text, my teacher often refers to it as a favorite:

It's positive qualities are inconceivable,

Like the revelation of a king's treasure.

The one who rests within its true meaning

Enjoys the inexhaustible wealth of its fruition.

 

I don't mean to imply that I understand what Jung points at or what this text point to but I think there's a relationship there. I think Jung was connecting with something deep, something fulfilling, something greater even than "every human hapiness." The Bönpos often use the analogy of returning home after many years of estrangement or a lost child returning to mother after many years. This commonality of returning to the home, to the hearth, to the heart - a belonging. It's beautiful.

[Nungali]

A good question. He uses Christian terms such as ‘soul’ but only as a means of describing the reality of his own otherwise ineffable experiences.  There are many references to the soul in his collected works but these are expressed in his more detached scientific language. (For example, in 1921, Jung equated the Hindu notion of Brahman/Atman with the self.  At the same time, he provided a definition of the soul. He argued that the soul possessed qualities that were complementary to the persona, containing those qualities that the conscious attitude lacked. This complementary character of the soul also affected its sexual character, so that a man had a feminine soul, or anima, and a woman had a masculine soul, or animus.)

 

For me his raw experiences are more revealing and these can be found in The Red Book. I’ve included a sample passage below, and I’m interested what you and others here make of what he was experiencing……

 

 

Refinding the Soul ¹

 

... <snip> ...

 

Wonderful isnt it .   I still have the same opinion though.  But here I would not pull apart that passage and show why. 

 

Not in a thread with this title  

 

However, some things to note;

1. In the text, Jung identifies the white bird as his soul. For Jung's discussion of the dove in alchemy, see Mysterium Coniunctionis (1955/56) (CW 14, §81)-

 

I think such symbols ( eg. the Egyptian image of 'Ba'            

 

etc.   are more about our relationship  (our perhaps our soul's relationship) with the  way the personna  'feels' soul , ie. collectively  , Anima Mundi, 'Gaia' etc.  The 'soul as a travelling entity' interacts with the 'soul of the world' .  

 

In my understanding, this is also how the souls of humans formed in the first place ; their specific and unique interaction with their environments.   One distinction with me is that my ideas are not just from my experience but a compendium of that and the experiences and concepts I learnt via cultural anthropology  ( ie. a wide range of varied human experience ) ... as well as  a study of mythology and comparative religion ( which I am pretty sure was a lens Jung viewed things through as well). 

 

A LOT more can be said about this interaction. 

 

The notes were good and explained more;

 

2. In his lecture at the ETH on June 14,1935, Jung noted: "A point exists at about the thirty-fifth year when things begin to change, it is the first moment of the shadow side of life, of the going down to death. It is clear that Dante found this point and those who have read Zarathustra will know that Nietzsche also discovered it. When this turning point comes people meet it in several ways: some turn away from it; others plunge into it; and something important happens to yet others from the outside. If we do not see a thing Fate does it to us."

 

Ha har! Indeed !   I wonder if he looked at astrological 'returns'    56 is an 'interesting' one  !   Well, mine certainly was ... and I am still alive ! ....  I N T E N S E ! 

 

That is also the other factor we need to consider, how old he was when he wrote this stuff ?      35 for those lectures ?   nearly just beyond a puppy !       And the idea of divergent paths is SPOT ON  ( 'meet it in several ways' ), also this leads to divergent outcomes .   Mine was a very good one.   Some of my friends have not been as 'fortunate'   .  I dont know enough of Jung to know what his latter conclusions were.    I am 60.       It still shocks me. I dont feel it at all, except physically, until I look back on how I was at  35 !

 

I am reminded of Mark Twain; " When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be twenty-one, I was astonished at how much he had learned in seven years."   

 

 

 

 3. Jung later described his personal transformation at this time as an example of the beginning of the second half of life, which frequently marked a return to the soul, after the goals and ambitions of the first half of life had been achieved.

 

That's key! I achieved mine long before I thought I would, or even if I thought I could, then found more and achieved them. This could have a LOT to do with my viewpoint and understanding.

 

4. Jung is referring here to his earlier work. For example, he had written in 1905, “Through the associations experiment we are at least given the means to pave the way for the experimental research of the mysteries of the sick soul”.

 

 

Fortunately , for me, I had a natural proclivity , my chart ruler is a Neptune Mercury interaction. In my system, with my 'tree', the natal astrological chart is used,  'superimposed' on the Tree, to see such proclivities, aversions ... even 'maleifics'. Hence, the outcomes I mentioned above may not be so inevitable , one can often find variant ways, around 'blockages' using beneficial aspects .

 

I have never been abandoned by my soul, nor lost it.  Even when I didnt know what it was, I was still doing things that were good for it and honoring it .... my proclivities again, I suppose. 

 

 

5. The Draft continues: -a dead system that I had contrived, assembled from so-called experiences and judgments"

 

6. In 1913, Jung called this process the introversion of the libido. 

 

Yes, that sounds better than any 'soul exploration' .  Introversion is fine up to a point, the best way to find one's soul is by expressing it IMO.   There are practices ... lots of them, it is also important, in this regard, to 'make offerings to the soul of world'.

 

As I have said a few times; I correspond soul with , the feminine, woman, darkness , nature, the environment, understanding of our self, our ability to effect the environment, 'expressions of the imagination' ( and here I define * differently like I do with soul) - all things I note that our modern society has trouble expressing, understanding, fears or abuses. 

 

 

* This is a good starting point ;   http://www.harpur.org/PJCHsecretfire.htm

[Nungali]

Interesting comments  above and triggered a lot in me I would like to share.

 

Recently, it has come to light in a lot of these conversations I have been having that, of course,  supporting and being responsible for family its harder to ..... hmmmm ..... 'live the life of the sage'   or better still ... what did  Steve   say  ?  

 

" And such an important step in our lives to let go of the superficial niceties of blindness, the conditioned addictions, and embrace our potential for going beyond and reaching the more subtle and profound inner levels of being. "   ... nice !

 

My first ever hermetic axiom ; Know Thyself   

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know_thyself

 

Not only did I not have any responsibilities to hold me back form any sort of exploration I plunged into, I averted responsibilities ferociously    .   Of course, it seemed like rebellion, even just to me, until later I got more of a picture, from working my astrology  on my 'Tree'  and hearing stories of what I was like as even a toddler.  I was born like that!  ( and this is what I call 'spirit' ... as opposed to soul, which is generated by spirit) .  They even got me tested as they thought I had lack of physical development  - doc said ' No, is quiet capable of doing things if he wants to do them himself, but I wasn;t able to coax him to do what he didnt want .'  ... threats never seemed to work either   . 

 

So, I guess, sort of ,   Buddha had to walk out from his family ? 

 

But here is 'the rub'   without my selfless parents, who were totally devoted to the kids and good family environment , hence giving up much chance of radical self exploration  ... ( boy! Did they ever need it !    ... and unlike Mark Twain, my opinion didnt change that much )  and other 'self-less' people  (like the one's that arranged free University courses back then )  and all the rest, I may not have had the freedom of life and now soul and spirit that I do. 

 

So; three things. If you want to go fully through that doorway of 'know thyself' , a degree of independence is required , think of that before a commitment either way.  If you have committed  to family, it may 'stretch out' your process a bit. It may be more relevant at old age , or when commitments pass.  and 3rd, if you are doing that - thank you, it is through your devotion and sometimes sacrifice that you create a good environment to allow others  to explore self as well.  

 

The reason ?

 

I will give the answer they gave me when I asked " Why is all this University Education free for me, when I dont even have to be showing to be doing any thing with it ? You mean I can just turn up with no expectations of graduation, even sitting tests, and choose whatever course I want ?"

 

Answer : " Because we believe, the better educated everyone can be, the better society it will be."

 

Thankyou !  -  Booglebear.

 

( Gratitude is 'good for the soul' .... and the World Soul )  

 

 

Make offerings  

 

 

[seekingbuddha]

What a wonderful thread that i have stumbled on.  I feel i am in Sangha.  The following words of  Jung  seem to describe the predicament that  the  OP  expressed::   "....If he does not find the soul, the horror of emptiness will overcome him,......"    

 

Maybe i am mistaken,  but  is it possible  that the OP  was not talking about  suicide,   but  about the  emptiness  that  overcomes someone,    if she/he is  not able to make  continued  progress after the initial  discovery ?

Edited November 19, 2015 by seekingbuddha

[Bearded Dragon]

You simply have nothing left to do and no reason to do it. 

 

Yeah. I'm like that. The difference is I'm not associated to it. You seem to be really strongly associated to this idea. Just drop it. Things are as you say, but your ideas about it are what causes the depressive ideas.

 

The exact same situation can be seen in different ways.

 

1) As you mentioned

2) You have nothing to do and no reason, meaning that you're actually free to do aaaaannything. You're unbound and your canvas is blank (perhaps depressingly blank initially, until you see the possibilities).

3) Outside of both of these polarities you can sit and just enjoy the moment while "not doing anything". You'll find that your person is actually doing stuff but it doesn't actually feel like YOU are doing it. I sort of feel like this sometimes, then on occasion it really does just feel like I'm watching my body go about it's business.

 

There is such peace in just going along. It's reaaaally nice. What you live for is the mystery from moment to moment. Everything feels fresh once everything starts to perpetuate in and of it's own. There is nothing to do, so you just stay with the moment. There is no reason to do anything, so you adapt impersonally to circumstances while going along.