A strange form of suicidality

[Arya]

I don't understand why parents today are making their daughters get an education and work instead of marrying them off young to a capable guy.

 

That way we'd have less depressed men and women roaming about. More jobs for men and women can remain feminine instead of doing manly stuff.

 

The whole boyfriend/girlfriend paradigm is completely wrong and unnecessary. That's what you get when you tarnish love and the institute of marriage. In fact, I think sex outside of marriage has very dire consequences, it's flimsy and fickle.

 

If I had a daughter, I would be the most proud if she married a wealthy handsome guy as soon as possible, preferably at 16 or 17. Don't care if she got Phd. in physics or does well in Business.

 

This whole society is a joke.

Edited November 19, 2015 by Arya

[AussieTrees]

Suicide is serious stuff.

 

Families and friends are often devastated,as well as in many cases so are the careers.

 

Yes we all consider suicide,explore this concept,and some try it,and even some are successful.

 

Consider this:After a successful suicide,any children of the deceased will have an increase of 50% of also committing suicide.

 

My views are non judgemental,people make choices,is there really any difference to someone who dies of natural causes or by their own hand?

[ilumairen]

I don't understand why parents today are making their daughters get an education and work instead of marrying them off young to a capable guy.

 

That way we'd have less depressed men and women roaming about. More jobs for men and women can remain feminine instead of doing manly stuff.

 

The whole boyfriend/girlfriend paradigm is completely wrong and unnecessary. That's what you get when you tarnish love and the institute of marriage. In fact, I think sex outside of marriage has very dire consequences, it's flimsy and fickle.

 

If I had a daughter, I would be the most proud if she married a wealthy handsome guy as soon as possible, preferably at 16 or 17. Don't care if she got Phd. in physics or does well in Business.

 

This whole society is a joke.

 

Arya, from a woman who has just rediscovered the sacred feminity within, I feel the urge to assert that women do not need to be suppressed for men to feel masculine. The man I live with is being transformed himself through my journey of rediscovery, and is himself in a better place than he had been.

[Nikolai1]

Here is my take on this soul loss.

 

The life of the regular person is not a profane thing.  Their soul is constantly found in the everyday world of people, relationships, careers, interests.  But our relationship with the soul has a dual flavour because it is associated with some things and not others.  We find our soul in our passions, and then lose it when we encounter that which isn't our passion.  Our selfhood is the pattern of likes and dislikes we follow.  Our selfhood is the pattern of finding then losing soul on a moment by moment basis.

 

The desert comes when we are no longer content with a soul found in specific places.  We are no longer motivated with a soul that is lost at the point of satiety.  We therefore stop following the pattern of likes and dislikes that was our selfhood.  Our loss of selfhood feels like the loss of soul because our soul was only ever found through our likes and dislikes.  It will also look like loss of soul, and people will avoid you for this reason.  Something 'wrong' is occurring.

 

Individuation is a loss of a pattern, but the gain of all that the pattern gave.  It is when the soul is always present and is able to stamp all things with its flavour.  It is creative.  It does not follow and predicatble lines.  To call it individuation is therefore a bit confusing, because the individuality of the individuated person is actually invisible,  They lack that unique pattern that even the most automated member of the corporate herd shows.

 

The individuality of the purely individuated person is pure creativity.  It is totally unpredictable, and untraceable.  But it is this faculty that the person in the desert waits for.  They are in limbo, having lost a pattern but never having gained the ability to live and find their soul without one.

 

In real life, and in my life, the loss of pattern must be understood as an emotional loss.  My heart has lost the pattern of selfhood, but my life still very much follows it.  I have many responsibilities and my days are filled with them.  I am forced to continue in a life that has lost its soul.  This is soul loss.  But it is a soul loss that has only come about because my soul was not enough for my soul.  The loss of the soul can perhaps be called a hope for soul.  At this point, there is no way of knowing if death is necessary for this next step.  It is not suicidality, but rather facing the fact of death in the same way as a person ressolved upon suicide does.  I face the fact of death, while knowing that it may be in fact be a re-birth in this  body.

 

I've just re-read this and I know it sounds garbled, but I hope, given the present company, that it will be understood!

Edited November 19, 2015 by Nikolai1

[3bob]

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Edited November 21, 2015 by 3bob

[C T]

I wonder what would happen if you simply look (as deeply as you can manage) at what is going on, with the least amount of scrutiny, internal dialog and analysis where possible? 

 

Just look. Observe. Let the words and meanings, and the attempts at finding meanings, go.

 

Simply watch without this 'I am....', or, 'In my life...' association. 

[Nikolai1]

I wonder what would happen if you simply look (as deeply as you can manage) at what is going on, with the least amount of scrutiny, internal dialog and analysis where possible? 

 

Just look. Observe. Let the words and meanings, and the attempts at finding meanings, go.

 

Simply watch without this 'I am....', or, 'In my life...' association. 

You're right - that is the only possible therapy.

[Nikolai1]

Michael is I think, very kindly, working on my chart.  But if my soul loss is sctual soul loss then surely it follows that my chart at tis time will be impossible to decipher, ambiguous, maybe meaningless?

[ilumairen]

Wonderful ... that last part ... wonderful!

 

It was not wonderful at all Nungali. In one moment I would be responding to the actual person, and in the next all of the buried bs in my mind would start swirling around and burst forth in manic fashion. The ghosts in my mind haunting not only myself, but keeping me from being in the moment I was in, and preventing me from seeing what was right in front of me - projected onto a very real person who did nothing to deserve it.

 

No, it was not wonderful. Getting stuck in our minds and constructs is not the answer.

[ilumairen]

You're right - that is the only possible therapy.

 

The rest is madness.

[3bob]

when a person is sinking anything that floats is a possible help, us beggars can't be to picky

[Arya]

Arya, from a woman who has just rediscovered the sacred feminity within, I feel the urge to assert that women do not need to be suppressed for men to feel masculine. The man I live with is being transformed himself through my journey of rediscovery, and is himself in a better place than he had been.

Hi Des, I never said suppressed and I'm not sure what that implies completely.

 

Generally it is the women today who suppressing the men, but men out of love & sympathies, run circle around women more so than before. 

 

It's good that you are discovering your femininity and if you keep going, you will surely attain to heaven.

[Arya]

Once you have a strong spiritual base, belief in afterlife and that your actions have far-reaching effects then depression becomes trivial.

 

Unfortunately, true and proper religion is being systematically rejected and lost. People who have no fear of doing wrong, can do anything evil. It's astonishing to see how often people lie today, even people who are well-off in terms of beauty and wealth. Being hateful & malicious is not seen as anything inherently wrong.

 

Well, come to where I live, these people swear on a daily basis and are ugly looking. You can tell from people's face & also the color of their skin how their personality is.

 

Anyways, if you find anyone in your family suffering from depression then tell them to take in sunlight for a little while at noon, preferably with most of the body exposed. 

Edited November 19, 2015 by Arya

[ilumairen]

What a wonderful thread that i have stumbled on.  I feel i am in Sangha.  The following words of  Jung  seem to describe the predicament that  the  OP  expressed::   "....If he does not find the soul, the horror of emptiness will overcome him,......"    

 

Maybe i am mistaken,  but  is it possible  that the OP  was not talking about  suicide,   but  about the  emptiness  that  overcomes someone,    if she/he is  not able to make  continued  progress after the initial  discovery ?

 

The slow death of neglected soul... not having seen past the emptiness to the potential that lies within that very emptiness. Emptiness is a step; it isn't culmination.

[Nungali]

Arya, from a woman who has just rediscovered the sacred feminity within, I feel the urge to assert that women do not need to be suppressed for men to feel masculine. The man I live with is being transformed himself through my journey of rediscovery, and is himself in a better place than he had been.

 

 

Yay ! 

 

I can assert this has been so in my journey .   I would not be where I am today without certain women teachers and fellow  explorers on the path.   One of my most significant and central initiations, I was initiated by a woman. IT has to be done by a man and woman initiator.  The man takes the first part .... which is really crappy ... but also more like a test, you have to 'wade' through it.   Then the  woman initiator takes over for the 2nd part ... which is a glorious beautiful heart centered pageant .   

 

And on the indigenous level here, some men have revealed hints (as it is a very confidential level ) that their highest initiations had to do with (or maybe involved or done by ??? )   women .  Which , on lower levels, would be breaking the strictest of taboos ! 

 

On this level,  one of the physical ordeals , subincision  replaces circumcision, although in some groups it also done at an earlier stage !  

 

"  A subincised penis is thought to resemble a vulva, "

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penile_subincision   *** warning; graphic imagery *** 

 

I mean, even a seemingly post Victorian  misogynist  like Crowley stated his highest initiations would have been impossible without women. 

Edited November 20, 2015 by Nungali

[Nungali]

Michael is I think, very kindly, working on my chart.  But if my soul loss is sctual soul loss then surely it follows that my chart at tis time will be impossible to decipher, ambiguous, maybe meaningless?

 

I dont see that at all, and I am following you less and less as we go along.  

 

Best to leave you in Michael's hands I feel.   But dont try to shut down the process by projecting your own doubts about it. 

 

Your soul will not like that . 

Edited November 20, 2015 by Nungali

[Nungali]

It was not wonderful at all Nungali. In one moment I would be responding to the actual person, and in the next all of the buried bs in my mind would start swirling around and burst forth in manic fashion. The ghosts in my mind haunting not only myself, but keeping me from being in the moment I was in, and preventing me from seeing what was right in front of me - projected onto a very real person who did nothing to deserve it. No, it was not wonderful. Getting stuck in our minds and constructs is not the answer.

 

I am sorry, comment retracted. I misinterpreted.

 

Again I assumed the process was further along and had reached a beneficial stage. 

 

The bit I bolded ....  I have been that person too .   Sometimes we reflect these things in our partnerships or acquaintances. 

 

At times, I ... actually , we  ... have triumphed over it  , at times not, and lead to a breakdown in communication and/or friendship. 

 

Liz Greene ( the psychological astrologer) has really good writings on this subject ; our need to play out this dynamic with 'real ' people .... she suggests we should not , although it also seems inevitable .  

 

There is a solution however . 

 

I wish I could remember which book and where it is ?  Maybe Michael knows ? 

[seekingbuddha]

Once you have a strong spiritual base, belief in afterlife and that your actions have far-reaching effects then depression becomes trivial.

 

Unfortunately, true and proper religion is being systematically rejected and lost. People who have no fear of doing wrong, can do anything evil. It's astonishing to see how often people lie today, even people who are well-off in terms of beauty and wealth. Being hateful & malicious is not seen as anything inherently wrong.

 

Well, come to where I live, these people swear on a daily basis and are ugly looking. You can tell from people's face & also the color of their skin how their personality is.

 

Anyways, if you find anyone in your family suffering from depression then tell them to take in sunlight for a little while at noon, preferably with most of the body exposed. 

All  these are true and useful words.   We can't even fathom how people lived without too much lies,  just 2000 years ago and people  valued the words they spoke.  It is sad that we don't  understand  how much power words carry with them.  Indeed, the face tells a lot about a person's  mind.   I bet a lot of us can easily tell/sense a person's   spirit  by the way he/she carries himself/herself.

[seekingbuddha]

Nikolai1,   reading your post makes me think that you could use the help of  lot of  solitude, seclusion and meditation/introspection/contemplation.   You simply  need to  "rest"  your mind, with nothing to do, nothing to even think about, and nothing to indulge in.   Retreat into nature and doing nothing  for a while, instead of wasting money on therapy.

[Nikolai1]

I dont see that at all, and I am following you less and less as we go along.  

There is a basic point about Jung's individuation process that I'm not clear on, so perhaps you and others could help me.

 

Is individuation liberation from the dictates of the archetypal realm?  Or does increasing individuation mark the increasing constellation of the archetypes in our life? Or, perhaps, could we say that individuation is simply the raising of archetypal influence from the unconscious to the conscious.

 

From my perspective, and from the perspective of the desert, it certainly feels like whatever archetypal patterns have shaped me so far have lost their influence.  At 39 years old, perhaps this is the situation of mid-life.  But if the patterns of my life have been reflected by the stars (I mean astrologically) then it would make perfect sense if that would no longer yield meaning.

 

It is difficult to express the sheer darkness I have when it comes to my future.  There are no goals, no desires to steer me.  If this is some kind of initiation then only time will tell.  I should say that all talk of initiation ceremonies seems rather glib in comparison. A ceremony, whether Australian aboriginal, or Catholic confirmation cannot be anything more than a mimicry of what I am passing through...if what what I am experiencing is indeed an initiation.

 

We in the west, when feeling spiritually bereft, have a tendency to elevate the spiritual ways of other cultures.  Since time immemorial, your average Aborigine was just an average man or woman, following the codes of their people.  Unless this code was matched by an inner sense, the code is empty.  No human being, in any time or place, can find salvation by following codes.  The task presents itself as forcefully today as it ever has; and just as most eschew the task today, so too did most people in the distant ancestral past.

[3bob]

"Behold, I make all things new"  Jesus

Edited November 21, 2015 by 3bob

[Michael Sternbach]

Hi Nikola,

 

Here you have the results of my astrological analysis. Interpreting a chart and formulating one's findings is a rather demanding and time consuming task, so I present what I came up with so far with no claim to completeness, but as a base for discussion and, hopefully, further insight.

 

 

In your natal chart, most planets are in the right hemisphere, which shows that you are more strongly relating to others than to yourself. Especially since four of the most personal planets are in the seventh house whose theme is relationships. In line with the "gestalt approach" to astrology that I am taking, I further notice that several planets form a triangle ("kite's head") by way of their aspects: Moon and Saturn, Pluto, and Neptune.

 

The condition of the Moon is particularly important consideration in a psychologically oriented chart analysis. The Moon stands for the subconscious mind, one's childhood conditioning and relationship to the mother. Moon in Leo as such suggests a cheerful, confident, perhaps even somewhat boastful child. This picture is being modified to a degree due to the Moon's close conjunction with Saturn, a hortatory psychological force that represents order and structure. His position in Leo is often a little problematic, as it is in the nature of this sign to experience life to the fullest, not being overly concerned with the consequences. That Saturn is conjuncting the Moon tells us that emotional self-discipline and restraint were stressed when you were a child, likely as a requirement for the acceptance and emotional security provided by your mother. Social conformity was rewarded by her and later by females in general (interrelations in a social context is one of the things that the sixth house represents). Besides to the development of reliability and other social skills, this also led to some inhibitions to your self-expression and creativity.

 

Moon and Saturn stand in an exact aspect (a sextile) to Pluto in Libra. Pluto's innate themes of power, sexuality and deep emotional transformation are here reinforced by his position in the eight house. Possessiveness in relationships will be experienced both actively and passively, in connection with the theme of emotional security. Also, some kind of hypnotic power and an inclination to uncover dark secrets are among your traits - quite in line with your education as a psychologist.

 

Connected to Pluto and the Saturn/Moon conjunction is Neptune - a very prominent planet as he is the "ruler" of Pisces, your rising sign and the planet highest above the horizon in this chart. It is not surprising then that spirituality plays such an important part in your life! Neptune softens and transcends all psychological borderlines as he stands for infinite space. Although his connection to the Moon and Saturn by a trine is of a harmonious nature overall, he can at times be detrimental to the sense of identity and self-definition represented in different ways by the latter two. Most of all, he can tempt you to suppress certain difficult themes by withdrawing into a "state of grace".

 

If we now look at the green planet symbols surrounding the circle of the natal chart in the diagram above - the transiting planets, or the planets in their current positions - we see that transiting Saturn is in the vicinity of and moving toward a conjunction with natal Neptune, while transiting Neptune is on his way to form an aspect (a quincunx) to natal Saturn and natal Moon.

 

By the way, the desert is an excellent symbol here, as it combines Saturn's dryness with Neptune's sense of expanse and mystery as well as with the oceanic feel associated with the latter and with the Moon.

 

Both Saturn and Neptune are moving slowly, so they will continue to activate (to varying degrees) the whole aspect triangle for quite some time to come. No quick fix to be had here, rather a very important phase in the psychospiritual development of your personality as you work with what the triangle contains. Both challenging and potentially very rewarding.

 

After having considered all this, I felt that something was still lacking. So I calculated another predictive chart showing your so called progressions. These are mutations of your natal chart occurring over time, but this is not the place to go into technical details. The following diagram shows the natal chart again, surrounded by the progressed planets.

 

 

I found what I was looking for right away: The progressed Sun (the centre of the conscious personality) is approaching natal Pluto which he will reach in about a year. Already, you are feeling how your enlightened conscious self is stirring toward meeting your shadow self. It will shatter your understanding of yourself but, if you endure, leave you with far deeper self-knowledge and a new emotional foundation eventually.

 

A motion picture says more than a thousand words... Watch this from 1:30 on, and you get the idea.

 

 

Challenging? For sure. But remember that any spiritual progress would come to a halt if you would avoid the confrontation with your dark side indefinitely.

 

Well, so much for tonight. I look forward to your comments and/or questions.

 

By the way, folks, if some of you want to order a professional reading from me, please contact me via PM or the contact form on my blog.

[3bob]

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Edited November 21, 2015 by 3bob

[Michael Sternbach]

just how dumb are you Michael ?  you don't put a natal chart or any other progressed chart of someone on the public internet even if a person foolishly gives you permission to do so!  (such is private or among trusted friends and to be kept that way)

 

[Nikolai1]

Wow Michael! I have a lot to say on your fascinating and illuminating post, but won't have the time until tomorrow evening. Until then!