the dark side of enlightenment

[ilumairen]

So today, with all the posts I've seen about acquiring powers, and my own recent experiences of dealing with all the suppressed shit in my own mind, I thought I would look into the correlation between madness and enlightenment.

 

Found this article:

http://www.npr.org/2015/03/29/395849232/understanding-the-dark-side-of-enlightenment-on-diamond-mountain

 

 

My personal thoughts are if it doesn't make the world around you more vibrant, and your personal relationships more genuine then somethings wrong. If it's adding more shit in your mind maybe it's time to go for a walk in the woods. But we'll all do whatever it is we'll do.... and things like this will happen.

[Chang]

Anyone considering the "dark side" of enlightenment will most probably eventually find their way to Jed McKenna.

 

[Miffymog]

The mind is a mightily complex thing. The lesson here is that you have to be careful when you start to peal away some of the layers.

[Brian]

Seems to me that the process of "enlightenment" (whatever that means) includes shining a light on and clarifying one's character, for better or for worse. Character matters. It isn't set in stone but it matters.

[ilumairen]

People can and do drive themselves mad with things discussed here.

[liminal_luke]

Enlightenment is what happens when you turn on your flashlight. Whether or not you like what you see is another matter.

[Kubba]

People can and do drive themselves mad with things discussed here.

True .. And almost noone take responsibility for advices they spread

[Daeluin]

A friend of a friend spent a few weeks meditating in the woods, and came out crazy. A decade later she says he still hasn't recovered.

 

I recall listening to Liu Ming speaking of his needing to spend a year alone in nature to help his re-integration.

 

A friend awakened at 17 and spent the next 20 years digging up all the knowledge he could find. We spoke about my concerns that walking the fire path of conscious awakening, where one finally reaches to the clear spot beyond all the writing on the blackboard.

 

What happens to the water after the fire burns through far enough? I wondered if then one would then be tempted to just burn the water away into the emptiness, like a black hole. He said that for years he did just that. Apparently he changed after that, but the continuation of our discussion is for a day yet to come.

 

My sense is the water and the fire need to make it home together. The water can't be too strong or it'll put the fire out, and the fire can't be too strong or it'll burn the water up. One yin, one yang = dao. My sense is that people break through, and have mental clarity even as they remain embodied. What happens to their body? Are they one with it? Or do they feel separated from it, as though it is false? Then learning to cope with living out the rest of one's time within this realm of the false, how morbid! Ever separate, yet trapped. What to do, but maintain emptiness?

 

The water path is just as much trouble, for one is hard pressed to avoid becoming trapped by attachments and desires. Everyone offers a home for your water so they can use it to their own ends, and it is difficult to know what desires are your own, unless you have none at all. Having none at all without disconnecting from one's essence is truly the development of character, of true wholeness.

 

One may be nothing, yet one is everything. One may detach from choice and control, and one's influence grows subtly more powerful. One looks for nothing, yet sees everything. I may not have proper reference to understand what other have seen, but I sense I did once, and I sense that isn't what it seems. Just my sense. I don't know anything, and that's fine with me.

[Aetherous]

Some systems of enlightenment can cause a breakdown. Other systems prevent such a thing. Also, pretty much every system defines it slightly differently...you can only know you're enlightened if you have a clear definition of what it is.

For instance, in some legitimate Tibetan Buddhism (not all branches of it are the same), they say that when there is no more trace of negative feelings, then you're on the right track. An enlightened person has none. Such a qualifier doesn't lead a person toward breaking down, but in fact, away from it (provided that no repression or denial of reality is happening).

Perhaps the biggest factor is teachers who aren't truly qualified to teach. Teachings can easily be misleading.

Edited November 23, 2015 by Aetherous

[MooNiNite]

Meditation and spiritual practice without correcting one's faults and taking responsibility leads to madness. Meditation can often be seen as an "escape," but that isn't what it is. It is more of an empowerment. 

[Bud Jetsun]

Enlightenment doesn't imply ones actions will be better or worse than anyone elses.

 

Without delusion and without attachment one may still behave as one pleases.

 

Do as thou wilt shall be the only law. This is true for all living beings.

 

If a path rooted in compassion (Love) can lead to enlightenment, a path rooted in non-compassion (fear) can also lead to enlightenment.

 

Enlightenment is a choice in perception of Now. This does not inherently imply good/bad loving/unloving etc.

 

Unlimited Love,

-Bud

 

 

[MooNiNite]

Enlightenment doesn't imply ones actions will be better or worse than anyone elses. Without delusion and without attachment one may still behave as one pleases. Do as thou wilt shall be the only law. This is true for all living beings. If a path rooted in compassion (Love) can lead to enlightenment, a path rooted in non-compassion (fear) can also lead to enlightenment. Enlightenment is a choice in perception of Now. This does not inherently imply good/bad loving/unloving etc. Unlimited Love, -Bud

 

I find that fear clouds concentration and prevents realization. 

[3bob]

a no man's land is not enlightenment

[Bud Jetsun]

a no man's land is not enlightenment

 

Nor does it transform a being into something without capacity to choose its own action.

[ilumairen]

The water path is just as much trouble, for one is hard pressed to avoid becoming trapped by attachments and desires. Everyone offers a home for your water so they can use it to their own ends, and it is difficult to know what desires are your own, unless you have none at all. Having none at all without disconnecting from one's essence is truly the development of character, of true wholeness.

 

One may be nothing, yet one is everything. One may detach from choice and control, and one's influence grows subtly more powerful. One looks for nothing, yet sees everything. I may not have proper reference to understand what other have seen, but I sense I did once, and I sense that isn't what it seems. Just my sense. I don't know anything, and that's fine with me.

 

The water path.. being nothing but the mirror other's see themselves in, and understanding that they are just another lost you, so you are left with the only compassionate option being to let them work their own shit out through you is indeed fraught with peril - especially when a fire personality with much more power than yourself keeps attacking the reflection that he sees with energy work you did not even know existed until you got hit with it. Yeah, sometimes shit gets burned away with somebody else's light...

[Kubba]

.....

Edited September 9, 2019 by Kubba

[ilumairen]

 

You listen to people talking here as if they know something but the truth is that most of them just had some experiences that they are opsessed with and they can only lead you to problems. Deluded with their sense of progress never confirmed by anyone.

 

My only wish regarding this at the moment is that the indiduals who have put the time into the energy work would exercise a little caution...

 

Thank you Kubba. I'm going back to watching the birds.

[Apech]

Cultivation is not just energy work or meditation.  Although you could take an all inclusive view of energy work by which everything you do is form of it.

 

From my experience - what has worked for me is that first you have to address worldly values - you have to decide for yourself that your main purpose is spiritual development for the benefit of yourself and others.  I don't mean that you can't have money, fame, success, a happy relationship and so on - I mean that you do not understand these things to be what you are aiming for.  In fact they arise incidentally to your spiritual work.

 

Second you have to address your own conduct - you have to understand that its not ok to be selfish, sloppy and self indulgent - you need an ethical base - or even (that most unfashionable word) morality - even if you express that very simply like accordance with the Dao of things - or maybe harmlessness.

 

Thirdly you need to balance up the push/pull of attraction and aversion ... things and people you love or hate ... you need a way to balance this so you are not subject to disturbing emotions, a way of adjusting your feelings so that you remain whole and balanced.

 

Then you need to refine your understanding by study and thinking through ideas.  You need to test every idea that arises to see if it stands up to rigorous challenge.  Then start to form a self-consistent body of ideas based in whatever cultural tradition you relate to (or  more than one).

 

Then you have to learn to meditate directly on energy/mind to disclose it's actual nature to yourself.

 

I don't mean these sequentially by the way that's just the way I have written them out.  But if you go straight to intensive meditation or other energy exercise without addressing the rest then you just end up charging up your own disharmony and potentially sending yourself crazy.

[Brian]

Very nicely put, Apech.

I am reminded (as I so often am) of Wang Juemin's "three rules":

• Remain calm
• Be a good & moral person
• Practice your qigong every day

[Daeluin]

The water path.. being nothing but the mirror other's see themselves in, and understanding that they are just another lost you, so you are left with the only compassionate option being to let them work their own shit out through you is indeed fraught with peril - especially when a fire personality with much more power than yourself keeps attacking the reflection that he sees with energy work you did not even know existed until you got hit with it. Yeah, sometimes shit gets burned away with somebody else's light...

 

My childhood was somewhat like this. More recently it was reflected to me that I was providing the energy that fed some of the extreme situations we found ourselves in. At first I felt shocked, but over time I came to accept the truth in this. Even without options, simply remaining in that situation did allow my energy to support and feed the ambitions of the other. Without this energy the other could not have gone as far.

 

Water is often symbolized by the trigram Kan ☵. The true yang surrounded by the false yin. The name also means a pit, or an abyss, and the trigam is also called danger.

 

In relation to Fire, Li ☲, which mean separation, these two symbols describe a fundamental principle. That of the natural tendency of the original yin and yang, symbolized by heaven ☰ and earth ☷, to exchange with each other. The heavy core of heaven falls into the receptive embrace of earth. Heaven, separated from its core, becomes Li, and Earth becomes the pit that the core of heaven fell into. The emptiness of the mind and consciousness is represented by the true yin now residing at the core of heaven.

 

The thing is, this Kan, pregnant and heavy with an energy that is difficult to maintain balance, is always slipping into any place that seems receptive enough to hold it. This can be seen in every facet of our interactions in the outside world. It is when our own strength of mind is separated enough from this water energy that it tends to pull us into a situation that we weren't prepared for.

 

The intentional manifestation of this can be very beautiful, as in pregnancy. Yet too we see how for many pregnancy can become an unexpected situation that binds those involved in a new long-term enterprise that was not necessarily their intention. Too we can see this operation in monetary exchanges, like gambling, where one embraces the danger of massive loss for the potential of massive gain.

 

In my situation growing up without autonomy, disallowed the freedom to make my own choices, I happily hid my inner development away for a time that I could discover it freely. In the mean time I made myself content to observe behind a shell. But was a I really content? My mind sought to escape into stories, and as my Fire lessened it's focus on reality, my Water became more difficult to control, and I wonder if the resulting exploration of sexuality was also related to allowing my Water to escape and thus be absorbed as resource to fuel the ambitions of the person without much Water. Sure enough things ramped up during those years, and fell away after I left home.

 

Whatever the case, it is clear that when the fire and the water separate from each other, we are pulled in two directions. If we ramp up the fire and attach to the True Yin, we can burn up the Water so that it cannot control us, and we also remove much of our influence on the water domain. And if we cultivate the True Yang within the water without also strengthening the True Yin which can maintain the inner home that contains it, it becomes more likely for the True Yang to fall out of balance and risk the danger of becoming entrapped in some external abyss. The cantong qi puts it well, translation by Fabrizio Pregadio in The Seal of the Unity of the Three:

 

"When Yang loses its token"

 

Kan is man and is the Moon,

Li is woman and is the Sun.

 

Thus the Sun sends forth virtue,

the Moon unfurls radiance.

The Moon receives, the Sun gives,

and their bodies are not harmed, not depleted.

 

When Yang loses its token,

Yin trespasses on its light.

Between the month's last day and the next month's first, it encroaches,

overcasting and upsetting:

 

Yang dissolves its form,

Yin invades, and calamity is born.

 

Each upon the other should man and woman wait,

inhaling, exhaling, each nourishing the other.

Feminine and masculine should mingle,

each seeking the other kind.

 

 

"If man goes past the measure"

 

Metal transforms into Water,

water by nature flows everywhere;

when Fire transforms into Soil,

water can proceed no further.

 

Man is movement and gives without,

woman is quiescence and stores within.

If man goes past the measure and exceeds his proper share,

he is seized by the woman;

thus the po latches the hun,

lest it be wasteful and lavish.

 

Neither cold nor hot,

they advance and recede in accordance with the time:

each of them attains its own harmony,

exhaling their tokens together.

 

 

This refers to the inner feminine and masculine, as well as the external. The principles extend throughout the universe.

[Bud Jetsun]

I find that fear clouds concentration and prevents realization. 

 

 

Becoming only clouds is the devout's path.   (blind fear/faith path, etc)

 

Becoming only clarity of realization is an alternative path.  (self-realization path, guru path etc)

 

Both the Headonist and the Ascetic paths are capable of arriving at complete detachment, one path is to mindfully over-satiate all interests in pleasure, one is to mindfully choose to destroy/deny all interest in pleasure.  

 

Both paths lead to the same place, and all realization must eventually be shed as delusions to gain ultimate wisdom (Embracing the Emptyness/Oneness). 

 

Infinite paths to the same place, the only ensured failure is to try to copy a path already taken (because you will only suffer the delusion of what their path may have been).  

 

Unlimited Love,

-Bud

[3bob]

harping on delusions = another form of delusions

 

 non-dualism is so tough to really attain, although fairly easy as just another intellectual concept

[centertime]

What I see - there is a few real teachers who can lead you properly. Even in ashrams or meditation centers you won't find help when needed. 

 

Second thing - neglecting the energy work in the mainstream teachings. People tend to think that it is all about the mind process so they focuss only on mental shifts, cause most books talk about it. But there is a body there too, and when energy wil rise in it, how possibly you will know whats going on withouth a proper guidance of someone who have experiences with it? 

I have not seen any case of advanced spiritually being withouth periods of energy shifts somewhere on the path. And it can last for years but people tend to think that there is on big bum and everything is great after it.

 

I spend around 3 weeks in something like meditation centre of one famous buddhist tradition with what they called a real teacher, and when there started a lot of energy movements within my body and other phenomenas the teacher did not know what to do, trying to repress the process, making me even more anxious. And they told me that they have cases like that at almost every longer retreat. Ambulance come and people just go to a psychiatric hospital and they feed them with hard drugs. But it does not help, so you end up being toxicated and having kundalini moving through you and I don't know of any psychiatrist who will understand whats going on with you.

And it can happend even durring a retreat with some famous teacher that has milions of views on YouTube. I've heard storries like that, but you won't hear about them in Vedantic discourses.

So finally I've been to a psychiatric hospital too after reaching some hard paralysis of one side of my body but I kind of knew that it has to do with energy so when balancing myself a bit I found a teacher who know about it and he helped me within a week. And that's very common case - people find a right person and everything fall into place. 

What causes the hard paralysis?  How do you resolve it?

[Kubba]

.....

Edited September 9, 2019 by Kubba

[Brian]

Becoming only clouds is the devout's path.   (blind fear/faith path, etc)

 

Becoming only clarity of realization is an alternative path.  (self-realization path, guru path etc)

 

Both the Headonist and the Ascetic paths are capable of arriving at complete detachment, one path is to mindfully over-satiate all interests in pleasure, one is to mindfully choose to destroy/deny all interest in pleasure.  

 

Both paths lead to the same place, and all realization must eventually be shed as delusions to gain ultimate wisdom (Embracing the Emptyness/Oneness). 

 

Infinite paths to the same place, the only ensured failure is to try to copy a path already taken (because you will only suffer the delusion of what their path may have been).  

 

Unlimited Love,

-Bud

I think this is superb, Bud Jetsun. Thank you.

 

A question -- was "Headonist" a typo for "Hedonist" or an intentional coinage? I assumed the former on first read and then realized how well what you had written actually worked. Either way, thank you.