Discussing Reincarnation

[noonespecial]

Discussing reincarnation with Christians I have found their view of the concept entirely skewed, it is not an easy ticket out of 'sin' quite the opposite, because the burden and responsibility of life is thrust fully upon the shoulders of the individual, likewise it is not my personality that gets another chance, my government name and memories more or less return to dust...

 

And this seems to be the most difficult bit... its hard for them to understand that it is not your personality that gets another chance, you might as well die and return to void because it is the same thing, it is a suffering of grandest sorts - in fact i would much prefer their worldview of being born, being lucky enough to be born into a Christian family, or accepting Jesus as savior and going straight to heaven, it doesn't get any easier than that in escaping the suffrage of this life.

 

I am not an ardent supporter of reincarnation either, because it really seems like a great way to keep a caste system in place...a bit more in tune with Hermetic philosophy is the following; if this is all in the imagination of the One thing, and one were to go through a past life regression, one could potentially tune into all lives ever lived out in the past (and future) then falsely believe they were exclusive to their particular 'higher self' just as silly as the rest of the options. -End rant. 

[wilfred]

from what i understand when the mind is clear enough you can see dependant origination for yourself and track back into past lives through direct knowing of all the casual links in your energetic/karmic history. i'm inclined to believe that it's possible and past lives are a thing that are knowable.

 

things like regressions might hit some spots, but it might just be random or images generated by the subconscious, not the same process as knowing via the casual chain.

[noonespecial]

What is a 'life' or what constitutes our definition of life beyond a matrix of memory patterns based on sensory impressions? If all is from One Thing, it follows there is only One Life, making any personality, past, present or future distinct from that Life an illusion. Likewise, what would be the point of a redemptive Christ figure, a stone or elixir if not to break away from that One Thing, it all gets very Faustian very quickly

[FraterUFA]

.

Edited April 20, 2017 by FraterUFA

[centertime]

I have conscious experience of four past life memories. The significance of them lies not in their historical accuracy but rather in what they convey about the "operating system" one is working from... and moreover, new options become available to one when they are consciously integrated.

 

That said, one of these was later proven to be historically accurate and utterly outside the bounds of any prior book learning. As for the rest, I have no idea. My memories include nobody of note: a Sumerian priest, a broken-hearted drunk, a peasant killed for his wife's crime (stealing food), and a soldier... Roman, I believe, and a damn mean one at that. 

 

In the final analysis, it doesn't really matter if these are one's own memories or another's... I'm not sure if it that is anything but a semantic difference anyway. What matters is that I identify with all of these individuals (or stories) and that they have shed a great deal of light on the shadows of my present life.

 

UFA

Hi,

Let me ask something.  How did you make them conscious?  Did you notice any inheritance of your personality from one life to another?  I guess they influence your life now.. Do they influence each other? E.g. was broken drunk influence by Sumerian priest?  Do you remember the between life area by any chance?

And what do you mean they integrated?  What difference does that make?

Edited December 5, 2015 by centertime

[thelerner]

Good questions above.  It'd be interesting to see a comparison of different reincarnation 'systems'.   How many include other levels of afterlife in there grand picture?  Whether sorting out is done by deity or cosmic weighing scale. 

[Nungali]

Ahhh the cosmic weighing scales !

 

 

 

 

... watch out for that crocolepapotamus on the right ! 

[noonespecial]

Ahhh the cosmic weighing scales !

 

 

 

 

... watch out for that crocolepapotamus on the right ! 

 

One wants to weigh your deeds, one wants to weigh your heart. 

[noonespecial]

from what i understand when the mind is clear enough you can see dependant origination for yourself and track back into past lives through direct knowing of all the casual links in your energetic/karmic history. i'm inclined to believe that it's possible and past lives are a thing that are knowable.

 

things like regressions might hit some spots, but it might just be random or images generated by the subconscious, not the same process as knowing via the casual chain.

 

My life is all lives. Yours too.  

[niki]

I believe every living thing is reincarnated... or recycled energy. The higher level of consciousness we reach on Earth plane the higher level of spiritual energy we are when we die. Once we reach the highest level or highest vibration or frequency on Earth plane we eventually cease incarnation and become part of the Dao or Logos or God or whatever it is you believe. Heaven or Nirvana is a state of consciousness we reach while on Earth plane. It's the last level of consciousness we can reach on earth. As for Christian's... I wouldn't try having this discussion with most of them. There's a few open minded ones out there who will listen and not become offended, but I don't like trying to convince anyone of anything. They will come to it on their own if they're fortunate enough.

[FraterUFA]

It is not that difficult or complex. There is another world which is the counterpart to this one, what some western cultures symbolized by "night". We visit there when we sleep and we live there when we die. We eventually manifest here again to repeat the cycle.

 

I believe that our personalities don't really survive this transition intact, though some of the deeper, more permanent traits we have acquired certainly do.

 

The alchemist finds a way to consciously experience both worlds and by doing so, his personal evolution is greatly accelerated.

 

By day and night, form returns to light.

 

UFA

[Desmonddf]

Through regression i have been able to see a little bit of 2 or 3 of my past lives.

 

Here are my impressions on the subject:

 

I know it was me. I recognize my own "existence" there. However, i do not see that person as the "me" i am today. I had different values. I behaved totally differently. If you put those two man in the same room as me you would say there are three completely different people there.

Even though i could feel... well... my "essence" ? My "sparkle" ? My.... something... there. Not my values, my morals, my sense of who i am... just a "something" which goes from life to life and can serve as a bridge between all of them.

 

Now, some say that isn't "you". That "you" is the Ego, the morals and values, the religion and whatnot you have built for yourself in your life.

 

I don't think this way. I say this "thing" is "me", and the rest is just the many personalities i had in times past, due to how i was raised and lived on different times. Just how i will have a new personality in five years, or ten years from. Just how i will live things in the future which will change me to a point were i'm not the same person i'm today anymore.

 

And it doesn't has much to do with sin. It's just that the person "there" is related to me on the same degree the person i was when i was 5 years old is related to me today.

 

Which means, the same way the things i did when i was 5 affect my present life by means of my unconscious mind, so do those things from those times. Plain psychology, that's one of the facets of karma in my view.

 

The hermetic, buddistic and taoist visions on the theme - which bring the idea of the returning spirit without mind or souls, is, on my opinion, a way of focusing on the change instead of focusing on the connections between one life and the other. 

 

For me, the connection is what i am. The change is just on things i had.

 

And that is why i'm not more affraid of reincarnation than i am of just keep living. It's mainly the same thing in my view.

 

That and a little bit of other stuff related to channeling and spirits which didn't scatte after death, but, well, that's a point to be discussed latter

Edited May 22, 2016 by Desmonddf

[WisteriaWinds]

ALL religions sell perfectionism.

 

Discussing reincarnation with Christians I have found their view of the concept entirely skewed, it is not an easy ticket out of 'sin' quite the opposite, because the burden and responsibility of life is thrust fully upon the shoulders of the individual, likewise it is not my personality that gets another chance, my government name and memories more or less return to dust...

 

And this seems to be the most difficult bit... its hard for them to understand that it is not your personality that gets another chance, you might as well die and return to void because it is the same thing, it is a suffering of grandest sorts - in fact i would much prefer their worldview of being born, being lucky enough to be born into a Christian family, or accepting Jesus as savior and going straight to heaven, it doesn't get any easier than that in escaping the suffrage of this life.

 

I am not an ardent supporter of reincarnation either, because it really seems like a great way to keep a caste system in place...a bit more in tune with Hermetic philosophy is the following; if this is all in the imagination of the One thing, and one were to go through a past life regression, one could potentially tune into all lives ever lived out in the past (and future) then falsely believe they were exclusive to their particular 'higher self' just as silly as the rest of the options. -End rant.

[Michael Sternbach]

Through regression i have been able to see a little bit of 2 or 3 of my past lives.

 

Here are my impressions on the subject:

 

I know it was me. I recognize my own "existence" there. However, i do not see that person as the "me" i am today. I had different values. I behaved totally differently. If you put those two man in the same room as me you would say there are three completely different people there.

 

Even though i could feel... well... my "essence" ? My "sparkle" ? My.... something... there. Not my values, my morals, my sense of who i am... just a "something" which goes from life to life and can serve as a bridge between all of them.

 

Now, some say that isn't "you". That "you" is the Ego, the morals and values, the religion and whatnot you have built for yourself in your life.

 

I don't think this way. I say this "thing" is "me", and the rest is just the many personalities i had in times past, due to how i was raised and lived on different times. Just how i will have a new personality in five years, or ten years from. Just how i will live things in the future which will change me to a point were i'm not the same person i'm today anymore.

 

And it doesn't has much to do with sin. It's just that the person "there" is related to me on the same degree the person i was when i was 5 years old is related to me today.

 

Which means, the same way the things i did when i was 5 affect my present life by means of my unconscious mind, so do those things from those times. Plain psychology, that's one of the facets of karma in my view.

 

The hermetic, buddistic and taoist visions on the theme - which bring the idea of the returning spirit without mind or souls, is, on my opinion, a way of focusing on the change instead of focusing on the connections between one life and the other. 

 

For me, the connection is what i am. The change is just on things i had.

 

And that is why i'm not more affraid of reincarnation than i am of just keep living. It's mainly the same thing in my view.

 

That and a little bit of other stuff related to channeling and spirits which didn't scatte after death, but, well, that's a point to be discussed latter

 

This is in great accordance with the picture that I pieced together, based on personal insights, astrological research, Hermetic writings, and quantum physics. Not that it would answer all my questions, but this is, in outline, what I concluded so far:

 

After physical death, the subtle body ascends through what was called the "planetary spheres" in the Hermetic/neo-Platonic cosmology of the ancients - we might speak of subtle planes or other-dimensional levels of reality today. During its "ascent", the subtle body gradually sheds its various layers, which correspond with the individual's intellect, emotions etc. For each of these layers is made of a different kind of subtle matter, and each is eventually left on its corresponding sphere or plane: The intellectual faculties on the plane of Mercury, the emotions on the planes of Venus and Mars etc.

 

What remains is the soul essence or monad, which is the individual's innermost identity beyond thinking and feeling. It will naturally gravitate toward realms beyond the Solar System, ultimately joining the Infinity of space and time. The Judeo-Christian tradition reflects this by stating that the soul returns to God.

 

Yet that spark of the Divine in most cases once again descends through the various planes, gradually dressing itself with new subtle body and, eventually, with a physical body. They will reflect the earlier experiences of this entity. Its make up is represented by its natal chart. There are indeed no two exactly identical individuals regarding their thinking, feeling, and physicality, as there are no two exactly identical natal charts. However, there will be considerable parallels between its earlier and the later "versions". Often, there will also be differences due to evolutionary integrations that have occurred during the previous incarnation.

[noonespecial]

Another question, if past life regression is possible, why not future life progression? Is there a ring pass not, wherein we can guide the mind to the past but not the future, if time collapses in the subtler fields underneath reality, it seems like both should be possible, in that we can access all lives (sensory input and subsequent reactions) through the memory of Nature, so that life experience is not limited to an ego or HG/daimon.

 

edit: typo

Edited May 22, 2016 by noonespecial

[Eques Peregrinus]

Yet that spark of the Divine in most cases once again descends through the various planes, gradually dressing itself with new subtle body and, eventually, with a physical body. They will reflect the earlier experiences of this entity. Its make up is represented by its natal chart. There are indeed no two exactly identical individuals regarding their thinking, feeling, and physicality, as there are no two exactly identical natal charts. However, there will be considerable parallels between its earlier and the later "versions". Often, there will also be differences due to evolutionary integrations that have occurred during the previous incarnation.

 

In the case of horary astrology*. It would made sense that the question's seed first birth within the Divine's mind, then that the question itself is formed by "intellectualising" this seed. (That is by the question "passing through these layers", and losing its subtelty, hence the difference I made between the question's seed and the question itself).

 

What bother me at this point is when a querent comes to the astrologer for enquiring about a subject, with questions which may have already been formulated hours or days before the consultation.

 

What is your opinion on this matter?

 

 

* For non-astrologers, that is the astrology used as a divination similar to Tarot or I-Ching rather than for doing an analysis of the querent's birth chart. A querent asks a question, like "Will I get the job?", the astrologer answer to it based on the sky chart at the time when the question is asked, if you prefer, by doing the analysis of the birth chart of the question.

 

PS: I'm getting off-topic here, am I right? 

[Desmonddf]

This is in great accordance with the picture that I pieced together, based on personal insights, astrological research, Hermetic writings, and quantum physics. Not that it would answer all my questions, but this is, in outline, what I concluded so far:

 

After physical death, the subtle body ascends through what was called the "planetary spheres" in the Hermetic/neo-Platonic cosmology of the ancients - we might speak of subtle planes or other-dimensional levels of reality today. During its "ascent", the subtle body gradually sheds its various layers, which correspond with the individual's intellect, emotions etc. For each of these layers is made of a different kind of subtle matter, and each is eventually left on its corresponding sphere or plane: The intellectual faculties on the plane of Mercury, the emotions on the planes of Venus and Mars etc.

 

What remains is the soul essence or monad, which is the individual's innermost identity beyond thinking and feeling. It will naturally gravitate toward realms beyond the Solar System, ultimately joining the Infinity of space and time. The Judeo-Christian tradition reflects this by stating that the soul returns to God.

 

Yet that spark of the Divine in most cases once again descends through the various planes, gradually dressing itself with new subtle body and, eventually, with a physical body. They will reflect the earlier experiences of this entity. Its make up is represented by its natal chart. There are indeed no two exactly identical individuals regarding their thinking, feeling, and physicality, as there are no two exactly identical natal charts. However, there will be considerable parallels between its earlier and the later "versions". Often, there will also be differences due to evolutionary integrations that have occurred during the previous incarnation.

 

 

By my experiences with channeling this would be correct in the concept, except the fact of not being an automatic process.

 

Please let me explain.

 

The spheres of the planets of astrology are multi-fractal.

 

The astrologic influences are actually all derivated from aether fluxes in our own planet, and are imprinted on the person's aether body - a semi-physical body which makes the connection between the physical body and the emotional body (which would be the sphere of Luna in your conceptual analysis).

 

(side note: Interestingly, this body start to scatter immediately after death of a person, and it's energy is needed for emotional beyings to affect the physical plane. So, the idea of "scattering" of the "soul", on my view, is actually based on the fact of the scattering of the aether body.)

 

However, astrology does go beyond this and gives us a conceptual analysis of the spheres above our own.

 

Above the sphere of deep emotion (Luna or the Astral Plane) we have the sphere of thought (mercury or the Concrete Mental Plane) then the sphere of sexuality and fluxes of instinc, or freudian libido, without form (Venus or the Abstract Mental Plane), then the sphere of Destiny, Dharma or Karma (Sun or the Causal Plane), then the sphere of strenght or impulse of movement (Mars or the Adamic Plane) then the sphere of royalty and supremacy (Jupiter or the Celestial Plane).

 

Above the Solar Sphere regular human beings do not have Individuality anymore. We are already part of a Group-Consciousness.

 

Above the Jupiterian Sphere there is no "humanity" anymore. The Saturnian Sphere is already on the verge of the Limits of Existance for what we call "humanity".

 

There are, however, classes of entities which can go beyond those levels. For instance, by reaching enlightment it is possible to leave humanity behind and achieve individuality on the level of the Martian sphere.

 

That said, death of the physical boddy do not allow for imediate return to the un-individual states of existance.

 

Most people just exist on the emotional plane after death. Plus, differently from here, destroying the emotional body (or soul) completely is impossible.

 

It is possible to mutilate it, to drain it of energy, to make it mutated and semi-destroyed, but there is a basic level of immortality to it.

 

In fact, it is to avoid the deterioration of the emotional body to a state of great suffering that most submit themselves to reincarnation on a new physical body, even if most in the situation of death see this as "dying" in the soul world, whislt the actual death of the emotional body is seen as "ascention".

 

That because, to reach the "gift" of death in the emotional plane it's necessary to reach a certain level of spiritual enlightnment.

 

Not to become buddha or something, but at least on the level of a Bodissatva, since it is necessary to be able to remain in the emotional plane indefinitely, cristalizing the existence of the emotional body there - meaning to be out of Samsara.

 

So, yes, when death comes we can rise out of the physical body and "shed" the "skin" of the multiple subtle bodies we have.

 

The first "skin" is the emotional body, or astral body, or soul, which must be first purified to the highest possible level and then abbandoned and finally scatter.

 

The difference is we actually need to seek for it and work towards it - while in the physical plane we seek to keep life.

 

 

 

Another question, if past life regression is possible, why not future life progression? Is there a ring pass not, wherein we can guide the mind to the past but not the future, if time collapses in the subtler fields underneath reality, it seems like both should be possible, in that we can access all lives (sensory input and subsequent reactions) through the memory of Nature, so that life experience is not limited to an ego or HG/daimon.

 

 

I know at least a couple people who have experienced future progression.

 

However, the thing with future is that it isn't written in stone.

 

There are multiple futures, and we, that is, our consciousness, will experience only one of them at a time (at least i don't know of anyone experiencing more than one at the same time).

 

So, it is possible to do a progression, see a perfectly possible future, and then just don't live it.

 

I have had, once or twice in my life, a few flases of future insight. I also know of people who had them.

 

Now, the interesting thing is, in one of them I was having a discussion with my mother. I used a certain argument, it became sour.

 

When the thing started to happen in real life, i, remembering the argument which turned the discussion sour, decided to change it.

 

And it did change. The discussion didn't became sour.

 

My brother-in-law also had future insight on a possible driving accident. He saw himself driving, and a man would pass the red light and crash into him.

 

As it commonly happens, he saw the vision, forgot it, and in the day the thing was going to happen, he remembered it.

 

So, he hit the brakes on time, and the guy didn't crash on him.

 

Now, the opposit has also happened with me.

 

I have also seen a scene of future, and done the thing i saw myself doing. What happened?

 

The scene progressed as it was perceived by me in the first place.

 

On another note, i did have some passing stuff, like perceiving just myself sat somewhere with a certain emotion or mental state. Not seeing how i got on this condition, i couldn't do a thing to avoid it.

 

So, the simple knowledge of future is enought to change it. The greater the knowledge, the more you can choose what to keep and what to change - but the smaller it is, the less power you have.

 

By having a progression you take a risk.

 

You may change the future without desiring it. You may keep it because you don't know how to change it, or if it is even possible to change it, or you may just get lucky and see enough to allow yourself to control what will happen.

 

Regardless, it's an interesting practice.

[Michael Sternbach]

Another question, if past life regression is possible, why not future life progression? Is there a ring pass not, wherein we can guide the mind to the past but not the future, if time collapses in the subtler fields underneath reality, it seems like both should be possible, in that we can access all lives (sensory input and subsequent reactions) through the memory of Nature, so that life experience is not limited to an ego or HG/daimon.

 

edit: typo

 

It should be possible in principle, and some particularly inspired individuals may in fact have glimpses of their future selves. However, what would seem to complicate things is that the future is not set in stone; multiple probabilities exist. As seen from the timeless perspective of the soul, this may also be the case regarding past lives, however. The only thing that is safe to say at present is that our understanding of the multidimensional reality our psyche exists in is quite limited, and so is our perception of it.

[Michael Sternbach]

In the case of horary astrology*. It would made sense that the question's seed first birth within the Divine's mind, then that the question itself is formed by "intellectualising" this seed. (That is by the question "passing through these layers", and losing its subtelty, hence the difference I made between the question's seed and the question itself).

 

What bother me at this point is when a querent comes to the astrologer for enquiring about a subject, with questions which may have already been formulated hours or days before the consultation.

 

What is your opinion on this matter?

 

 

* For non-astrologers, that is the astrology used as a divination similar to Tarot or I-Ching rather than for doing an analysis of the querent's birth chart. A querent asks a question, like "Will I get the job?", the astrologer answer to it based on the sky chart at the time when the question is asked, if you prefer, by doing the analysis of the birth chart of the question.

 

I am not sure if it is correct to think in terms of the "birth" of the question here. After all, in horary astrology, what we are after is not taking apart the question as such, but finding the answer to it. Unless, of course, you argue that the answer is contained within the question.

 

 

To avoid vaguenesses, many astrologers simply take the time and place of the session as base for their horary analysis (and beg the client to be on time, for God's sake!). Which seems to make some sort of sense, because after all, it's the session that is supposed to give birth to the answer.

 

By the way, even though I'm familiar with the basic principles of horary astrology, I myself don't practise it. As far as prognoses are concerned, I like transits, different kinds of directions, and solar charts as techniques that show general trends, but when it's about answering specific questions regarding the future, I often prefer Tarot, the I Ching, and the pendulum over astrology.

 

PS: I'm getting off-topic here, am I right? 

 

Let's just hope that no mod would see this!

[Michael Sternbach]

By my experiences with channeling this would be correct in the concept, except the fact of not being an automatic process.

 

Please let me explain.

 

The spheres of the planets of astrology are multi-fractal.

 

Meaning?

 

The astrologic influences are actually all derivated from aether fluxes in our own planet, and are imprinted on the person's aether body - a semi-physical body which makes the connection between the physical body and the emotional body (which would be the sphere of Luna in your conceptual analysis).

 

Yes, you could see the aether body as connected to the Lunar sphere. However, the latter also corresponds with instincts and the subconscious mind. Since there are many different models both regarding the psyche and the multi-layered subtle body, I prefer to currently hold back on overly rigorous correspondences.

 

Anyway, the celestial bodies influence the whole subtle body of the Earth, not only its aetheric body. And while the Earth may provide the link between the human being and the outer Universe, it is again not just the individual's aetheric body that is being influenced.

 

(side note: Interestingly, this body start to scatter immediately after death of a person, and it's energy is needed for emotional beyings to affect the physical plane. So, the idea of "scattering" of the "soul", on my view, is actually based on the fact of the scattering of the aether body.)

 

However, astrology does go beyond this and gives us a conceptual analysis of the spheres above our own.

 

Above the sphere of deep emotion (Luna or the Astral Plane) we have the sphere of thought (mercury or the Concrete Mental Plane) then the sphere of sexuality and fluxes of instinc, or freudian libido, without form (Venus or the Abstract Mental Plane), then the sphere of Destiny, Dharma or Karma (Sun or the Causal Plane), then the sphere of strenght or impulse of movement (Mars or the Adamic Plane) then the sphere of royalty and supremacy (Jupiter or the Celestial Plane).

 

Above the Solar Sphere regular human beings do not have Individuality anymore. We are already part of a Group-Consciousness.

 

Above the Jupiterian Sphere there is no "humanity" anymore. The Saturnian Sphere is already on the verge of the Limits of Existance for what we call "humanity".

 

There are, however, classes of entities which can go beyond those levels. For instance, by reaching enlightment it is possible to leave humanity behind and achieve individuality on the level of the Martian sphere.

 

No offence, but these correspondences are quite dubious to me. For instance, while I agree that with Jupiter and Saturn we enter the realm of collectivism, the personality of the average individual does extend to (and is contained by) the sphere of Saturn. Not before Uranus can we speak of transcendent forces.

 

That said, death of the physical boddy do not allow for imediate return to the un-individual states of existance.

 

I didn't say there is an immediate return to the Source, Infinity, whatever you call it. Rather, the soul, still dressed with the various layers of the subtle body, sheds these gradually.

 

Also, the soul is anything but un-individual, thus it does not gravitate to "un-individual states of existence." Rather, it is the very essence of individuality. At once, it partakes of the Divine. These are no simple questions, to be sure.

 

Most people just exist on the emotional plane after death. Plus, differently from here, destroying the emotional body (or soul) completely is impossible.

 

It is possible to mutilate it, to drain it of energy, to make it mutated and semi-destroyed, but there is a basic level of immortality to it.

 

In fact, it is to avoid the deterioration of the emotional body to a state of great suffering that most submit themselves to reincarnation on a new physical body, even if most in the situation of death see this as "dying" in the soul world, whislt the actual death of the emotional body is seen as "ascention".

 

That because, to reach the "gift" of death in the emotional plane it's necessary to reach a certain level of spiritual enlightnment.

 

Not to become buddha or something, but at least on the level of a Bodissatva, since it is necessary to be able to remain in the emotional plane indefinitely, cristalizing the existence of the emotional body there - meaning to be out of Samsara.

 

You lost me completely with that.

 

So, yes, when death comes we can rise out of the physical body and "shed" the "skin" of the multiple subtle bodies we have.

 

The first "skin" is the emotional body, or astral body, or soul, which must be first purified to the highest possible level and then abbandoned and finally scatter.

 

Didn't we say that's the aetheric body? And why would a (layer of the) subtle body have to be purified in order to be scattered? Internal alchemy can be used to purify the subtle body, but the aim is to make it immortal, that is, to maintain all its faculties - quite contrary to your statement.

 

The difference is we actually need to seek for it and work towards it - while in the physical plane we seek to keep life.

 

No, that makes no sense to me.

 

I know at least a couple people who have experienced future progression.

 

However, the thing with future is that it isn't written in stone.

 

There are multiple futures, and we, that is, our consciousness, will experience only one of them at a time (at least i don't know of anyone experiencing more than one at the same time).

 

So, it is possible to do a progression, see a perfectly possible future, and then just don't live it.

 

I have had, once or twice in my life, a few flases of future insight. I also know of people who had them.

 

Now, the interesting thing is, in one of them I was having a discussion with my mother. I used a certain argument, it became sour.

 

When the thing started to happen in real life, i, remembering the argument which turned the discussion sour, decided to change it.

 

And it did change. The discussion didn't became sour.

 

My brother-in-law also had future insight on a possible driving accident. He saw himself driving, and a man would pass the red light and crash into him.

 

As it commonly happens, he saw the vision, forgot it, and in the day the thing was going to happen, he remembered it.

 

So, he hit the brakes on time, and the guy didn't crash on him.

 

Now, the opposit has also happened with me.

 

I have also seen a scene of future, and done the thing i saw myself doing. What happened?

 

The scene progressed as it was perceived by me in the first place.

 

On another note, i did have some passing stuff, like perceiving just myself sat somewhere with a certain emotion or mental state. Not seeing how i got on this condition, i couldn't do a thing to avoid it.

 

So, the simple knowledge of future is enought to change it. The greater the knowledge, the more you can choose what to keep and what to change - but the smaller it is, the less power you have.

 

By having a progression you take a risk.

 

You may change the future without desiring it. You may keep it because you don't know how to change it, or if it is even possible to change it, or you may just get lucky and see enough to allow yourself to control what will happen.

 

Regardless, it's an interesting practice.

 

Well, the question was only about future lives, not the future in this life. Nonetheless, I find your thoughts in this regard interesting and agree to them, overall.

[Desmonddf]

Yes, you could see the aether body as connected to the Lunar sphere. However, the latter also corresponds with instincts and the subconscious mind. Since there are many different models both regarding the psyche and the multi-layered subtle body, I prefer to currently hold back on overly rigorous correspondences.

 

 

Sure, i was just adapting the theory to the astrological spheres.

 

 

 

Anyway, the celestial bodies influence the whole subtle body of the Earth, not only its aetheric body. And while the Earth may provide the link between the human being and the outer Universe, it is again not just the individual's aetheric body that is being influenced.

 

I will slightly disagree on this point. Even if they indeed do influence the planet earth (not the celestial bodies themselves, but the subtle inteligences and fluxes linked to them), they only influence the planet on it's aetheric atmosphere.

 

Beyond that (the emotional plan and above) they do not pose serious influence.

 

 

 

No offence, but these correspondences are quite dubious to me. For instance, while I agree that with Jupiter and Saturn we enter the realm of collectivism, the personality of the average individual does extend to (and is contained by) the sphere of Saturn. Not before Uranus can we speak of transcendent forces.

 

 

It's a rough outline, not a rigorous correspondence. I'm not talking about individuals either, but about planes of existence.

 

 

 

Also, the soul is anything but un-individual, thus it does not gravitate to "un-individual states of existence." Rather, it is the very essence of individuality. At once, it partakes of the Divine. These are no simple questions, to be sure.

 

 

I suppose we are using different definitions about what is the "soul". The "soul" i'm refering to is the emotional body.

 

The mental, causal and other subtle bodies aren't included in the "soul".

 

 

 

You lost me completely with that.

 

 

I will make an amendment here. It is possible to project one's consciousness to any of the mentioned spheres of existence, but this is different from transcending the need of be a part of the cicles of the present sphere one is into.

 

 

Didn't we say that's the aetheric body? And why would a (layer of the) subtle body have to be purified in order to be scattered? Internal alchemy can be used to purify the subtle body, but the aim is to make it immortal, that is, to maintain all its faculties - quite contrary to your statement.

 

Please note i'm talking about multiple subtle bodies, not a single one.

 

A layer of it (above the aetheric body, which scattes naturaly) must be purified in order to be scatted because this is the way to attain immortality for an even more subtle body. Once the emotional body is scatted it becomes possible to materialize a new emotional body at any time.

 

The difference is - this new emotional body isn't subjected to many of the laws of the emotional plane. 

 

It is a body made by the mind, and therefore there's absolute control over it - including "immortality".

 

Like all "imortals" from taoism, the immortality of a more subtle body means the last death of a more concrete one. Then, transcendence from the ilusion of death and the capability of returning to the world without being a part of it - without the need to go through birth and reencarnation.

 

Let's apply this concept to the physical plane.

 

Usually one must die here and go to the emotional plane. Then, reincarnate once the emotional body start to decay.

 

This cicle grants vitality not to the physical body, but to the emotional body.

 

The one body we must make immortal isn't our physical one, but the emotional one. Why? Because we theoreticaly should be able to make a physical body for ourselves at any time, by gathering aether and materializing it.

 

All human beings are, in theory, physicaly immortal. Differently from elementals (ondines, salamanders, etc) we have the inerent ability to gather semi-physical particles and manipulate them (like qi). This depends on being individuals at the level of causality, thing the elementals aren't.

 

Of course, in theory. In practice this is one more of the things the actual system of reincarnations this planet has doesn't allow to be done, even if virtually ALL other planets of this system allow for it.

 

Just go in astral projection to any of them. Mars, Jupiter, even the sun. As long as you can use an appropriate technique to leave the planet's astral atmosphere and endure the conditions there, you will find plenty of non-earthly souls and aetheric bodies on those places.

 

Curse the guys in charge of this

 

Anyhow.

 

The emotional body we have must be made immortal. And the fastest way to do it is by purifying the physical body in order to attain a stronger manifestation of this body while using the physical forces to keep it's shape and overral human nature.

 

So, practices such as ascetism or karmic interactions, which bring forth surges of intense emotions, hurt this emotional body and bring instability to it. However, it doesn't decay because of the physical body acting as a support. 

 

By hurting it and having it come back to it's original form multiple times the result is a strenghtening and expansion of this emotional body.

 

Of course, excessive hurting may come with mental traumas, which will ruin the process and require for a new reincarnation in order to revert the damage done, but controled hurting will increase tolerance and overall strenght.

 

For a similar reason, once immortality of the emotional body is achieved, the same must be done with the concrete mental body - constant hurting of it by practices of "emotional ascetism", let's say it like this.

 

Then again, this is the system used on our planet today. In the past different systems have been used, and some of them are radically different.

 

For example, there are systems of spiritual growth by increasing expansion of one's personal power and vitality, bringing a closer connection to the post-individual planes and subtle bodies we have. Modern satanism in it's more esoteric veins (Dragon Rouge, Draconian Magic, Order of Phosporus, etc) are usually more affectionate of this kind of method instead of the ascetic ones.

 

Still, this one is very popular and has made it's way on most religious systems of our age.

[FraterUFA]

Through regression i have been able to see a little bit of 2 or 3 of my past lives.

 

Here are my impressions on the subject:

 

IMO this is an accurate description. There is continuity between lives, which can be traced, though the temporal aspects of personalities do not seem to persist.

 

 

Another question, if past life regression is possible, why not future life progression? Is there a ring pass not, wherein we can guide the mind to the past but not the future, if time collapses in the subtler fields underneath reality, it seems like both should be possible, in that we can access all lives (sensory input and subsequent reactions) through the memory of Nature, so that life experience is not limited to an ego or HG/daimon.

 

This is possible to the extent that the Higher Self permits it, provided the lower personality is prepared to accurately receive the impressions. 

 

The astrologic influences are actually all derivated from aether fluxes in our own planet, and are imprinted on the person's aether body - a semi-physical body which makes the connection between the physical body and the emotional body (which would be the sphere of Luna in your conceptual analysis).

 

...

 

It is difficult to compare experiences without a shared language so I am not understanding most of what you wrote here. Not that it is wrong, but I don't recognize many of the terms you've used and I probably have a different understanding of those I do recognize. 

 

 

Above the sphere of deep emotion (Luna or the Astral Plane) we have the sphere of thought (mercury or the Concrete Mental Plane) then the sphere of sexuality and fluxes of instinc, or freudian libido, without form (Venus or the Abstract Mental Plane), then the sphere of Destiny, Dharma or Karma (Sun or the Causal Plane), then the sphere of strenght or impulse of movement (Mars or the Adamic Plane) then the sphere of royalty and supremacy (Jupiter or the Celestial Plane).

 

This is classic QBL. I am not really seeing it this way (as far as I understand what you're describing) because it implies a clean cut division between various functions of consciousness that I have not experienced in exactly the same way.

 

My experience with the sphere of Luna is that it is here that we confront the instinctual/habit mind (which includes sexuality). With time and experience, one carries over much of their physical consciousness to this sphere so it's not quite the same as it was in the beginning.

 

Above the Solar Sphere regular human beings do not have Individuality anymore. We are already part of a Group-Consciousness.

 

Above the Jupiterian Sphere there is no "humanity" anymore. The Saturnian Sphere is already on the verge of the Limits of Existance for what we call "humanity".

 

There are, however, classes of entities which can go beyond those levels. For instance, by reaching enlightment it is possible to leave humanity behind and achieve individuality on the level of the Martian sphere.

 

I find it useful to suspend theoretical speculation on matters so far removed from our personal experience because it tends to limit understanding. 

 

Most people just exist on the emotional plane after death. Plus, differently from here, destroying the emotional body (or soul) completely is impossible.

 

And some people remain there, fully conscious, going about their work.

 

In fact, it is to avoid the deterioration of the emotional body to a state of great suffering that most submit themselves to reincarnation on a new physical body, even if most in the situation of death see this as "dying" in the soul world, whislt the actual death of the emotional body is seen as "ascention".

 

I doubt any of this is the case. 

 

I know at least a couple people who have experienced future progression.

 

However, the thing with future is that it isn't written in stone.

 

Agree 100% with this. We are shown not what necessarily will happen, but what we need to see.

 

 

So, the simple knowledge of future is enought to change it. The greater the knowledge, the more you can choose what to keep and what to change - but the smaller it is, the less power you have.

 

There is also the case when one is shown a possible future by the Higher Self so that one can work toward it.

 

UFA

[Desmonddf]

And some people remain there, fully conscious, going about their work.

 

Yes, indeed. Reincarnation is a thing that can take a long time between lives or happen immediately. Each person is a different matter in this subject.

 

Some common lines of work include dealing with the needs of others and submiting yourself to an organization in order to get benefits.

 

Depending on how high on the astral plane you find yourself things can be more or less regular, fantastic or nasty.

 

There's a very "dark" city the astral projectors group i'm a part of calls "gordemonio". Things there revolve around the basic desire of getting ectoplasm of the living (by offerings or plain vampirism) in order to affect the physical plane and power struggles amongst those who live there.

 

An astral colony like "Nosso Lar" revolves around rescuying the nearly dead and specially those who died of cancer in a certain part of Brazil. It's mainly peacefull and devoted to stillness and forgetting the wrongdoings of the past.

 

While higher semy-planes of existence gravitate around more humanitarian, scientific and artistic dealings.

 

 

I doubt any of this is the case.

 

That's what i have seen in some of the "astral colonies" we have over our country. However, those are linked to a religious philosophy we have here, so maybe it's just how people of that philosophy see things.

 

 

There is also the case when one is shown a possible future by the Higher Self so that one can work toward it.

 

 Indeed.

[Michael Sternbach]

I will slightly disagree on this point. Even if they indeed do influence the planet earth (not the celestial bodies themselves, but the subtle inteligences and fluxes linked to them), they only influence the planet on it's aetheric atmosphere.

 

Beyond that (the emotional plan and above) they do not pose serious influence.

 

This doesn't add up for me. For the planets very much influence one's thinking (especially Mercury) and spirituality (besides Jupiter especially the trans-Neptunians, also the Sun and the Moon, in some ways).

 

It's a rough outline, not a rigorous correspondence. I'm not talking about individuals either, but about planes of existence.

 

Alright, but those planes correspond with aspects of the personality. I agree this might get a little complicated though, especially as long as we haven't agreed on defined terms.

 

I suppose we are using different definitions about what is the "soul". The "soul" i'm refering to is the emotional body.

 

The mental, causal and other subtle bodies aren't included in the "soul".

 

I see.

 

I will make an amendment here. It is possible to project one's consciousness to any of the mentioned spheres of existence, but this is different from transcending the need of be a part of the cicles of the present sphere one is into.

 

Okay.

 

Please note i'm talking about multiple subtle bodies, not a single one.

 

I got that. It doesn't make much difference for our purposes here if we talk about multiple subtle bodies or the multiple layers of a single one. It's just a different perspective.

 

A layer of it (above the aetheric body, which scattes naturaly) must be purified in order to be scatted because this is the way to attain immortality for an even more subtle body. Once the emotional body is scatted it becomes possible to materialize a new emotional body at any time.

 

The difference is - this new emotional body isn't subjected to many of the laws of the emotional plane. 

 

It is a body made by the mind, and therefore there's absolute control over it - including "immortality".

 

Like all "imortals" from taoism, the immortality of a more subtle body means the last death of a more concrete one. Then, transcendence from the ilusion of death and the capability of returning to the world without being a part of it - without the need to go through birth and reencarnation.

 

Let's apply this concept to the physical plane.

 

Usually one must die here and go to the emotional plane. Then, reincarnate once the emotional body start to decay.

 

This cicle grants vitality not to the physical body, but to the emotional body.

 

The one body we must make immortal isn't our physical one, but the emotional one. Why? Because we theoreticaly should be able to make a physical body for ourselves at any time, by gathering aether and materializing it.

 

All human beings are, in theory, physicaly immortal. Differently from elementals (ondines, salamanders, etc) we have the inerent ability to gather semi-physical particles and manipulate them (like qi). This depends on being individuals at the level of causality, thing the elementals aren't.

 

Of course, in theory. In practice this is one more of the things the actual system of reincarnations this planet has doesn't allow to be done, even if virtually ALL other planets of this system allow for it.

 

Just go in astral projection to any of them. Mars, Jupiter, even the sun. As long as you can use an appropriate technique to leave the planet's astral atmosphere and endure the conditions there, you will find plenty of non-earthly souls and aetheric bodies on those places.

 

Curse the guys in charge of this

 

Anyhow.

 

The emotional body we have must be made immortal. And the fastest way to do it is by purifying the physical body in order to attain a stronger manifestation of this body while using the physical forces to keep it's shape and overral human nature.

 

So, practices such as ascetism or karmic interactions, which bring forth surges of intense emotions, hurt this emotional body and bring instability to it. However, it doesn't decay because of the physical body acting as a support. 

 

By hurting it and having it come back to it's original form multiple times the result is a strenghtening and expansion of this emotional body.

 

Of course, excessive hurting may come with mental traumas, which will ruin the process and require for a new reincarnation in order to revert the damage done, but controled hurting will increase tolerance and overall strenght.

 

For a similar reason, once immortality of the emotional body is achieved, the same must be done with the concrete mental body - constant hurting of it by practices of "emotional ascetism", let's say it like this.

 

Then again, this is the system used on our planet today. In the past different systems have been used, and some of them are radically different.

 

For example, there are systems of spiritual growth by increasing expansion of one's personal power and vitality, bringing a closer connection to the post-individual planes and subtle bodies we have. Modern satanism in it's more esoteric veins (Dragon Rouge, Draconian Magic, Order of Phosporus, etc) are usually more affectionate of this kind of method instead of the ascetic ones.

 

Still, this one is very popular and has made it's way on most religious systems of our age.

 

A lot of funny speculative ideas in this, some of it sounds strangely interesting, but I'm not in a position to comment right now.

[Orion]

I used to have intense past life experiences, in altered states, mostly when the transpersonal chakras were way open. The memories came through waking visions or at night when I slept, through dreams. The dreams and visions had a very distinct quality that I can't put into words. They felt very real and had a level of supercharged clarity about them.

 

Years later, I still question the whole thing. These are my questions:

- Who or what lives or dies?

- Are the memories mine or from elsewhere? (i.e. something collective)

- Who or what is observing the memories?

- Do we co-create with the reincarnation cycle ("planned lives") or are we completely at its mercy, with no helpful variables?

 

Most of the systems that talk about reincarnation divide consciousness into some kind of hierarchy, especially the western schools, but I don't relate to this either. It's all one thing, there's no higher or lower.

 

The other problem is, in order to identify with past life memories as "mine", it requires me to attach personality to whatever is going on, and that creates other issues. I still have to bring it back to the now, to present awareness. Whatever's happening, is happening. "Ok, now memories of other lives seem to be arising... ok, interesting. Moving on!" It's all just a dream, and in this dream, we may have something called "reincarnation" which may include associated memories. It doesn't make it any less of a dream. If reincarnation is a thing, then it exceeds my understanding or my influence, just like independent arising and dissolving does. It also has nothing to do with me because it's clear to me that no matter how consciousness happens, it is empty of self.

 

The past is definitely not happening, whether it's this life or another life. If you're going to weave such experiences into your own personal cosmology for something practical, then I guess it has its uses. Apart from that, I see no reason to entertain past life memories. They're neither here nor there.

Edited May 24, 2016 by Orion