Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche speaks of his recent retreat

[C T]

http://learning.tergar.org/course_library/mingyur-rinpoches-monthly-teachings/expectations-and-appreciation/

[Anderson]

From what he's saying i am confident that he can die the right way and control where he goes next life.He shows abilities that he can achieve budhahood in the bardo.

That's it.His work is done.

[C T]

From what he's saying i am confident that he can die the right way and control where he goes next life.He shows abilities that he can achieve budhahood in the bardo.

That's it.His work is done.

sure sounds that way

[doc benway]

His work is done.

 

Not even close...

 

There are limitless sentient beings.

[Jeff]

Yes, very balanced and impressive. A true blessing to the world.

[Brian]

Not even close...

 

There are limitless sentient beings.

This corresponds with what I've been told, that there are always higher levels.

[C T]

Gentlemen, in my limited understanding, i believe Anderson sees Mingyur Rinpoche as having attained to the level where he can transfer his consciousness at will (Phowa) should he so choose, rather than implying he has fulfilled his mission in some form or other, as in resting on his laurels kind of way. 

 

Phowa explained: http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Phowa

[doc benway]

I would still tend to disagree.

I suspect Mingyur Rinpoche would as well...  but that of course is conjecture. 

No disrespect intended.

[Anderson]

Nobody gets saved by the work of another.

[doc benway]

Nobody gets saved by the work of another.

That's irrelevant.

Presumably Mingyur Rinpoche took bodhisattva vows. 

[Anderson]

But his main practice is dzogchen.

[doc benway]

Dzogchen is a Mahayana path, you know that...

 

I'll stop now. It doesn't matter.

[Tibetan_Ice]

It is also Bon

[Anderson]

Dzogchen is a Mahayana path, you know that...

 

 

That is a silly thing to say.

Dzogchen rejects mahayana.

[doc benway]

I'd love to respond but I promised myself to let it go...

Peace

[RigdzinTrinley]

Oi weh

[Jeff]

That is a silly thing to say.

Dzogchen rejects mahayana.

 

Are you serious? Could you site some reference to that position?

[MooNiNite]

They are all the same if you ask me. 

[Anderson]

Are you serious? Could you site some reference to that position?

 

 

Even though in the fundamental condition all is equal,

[the Bodhisattvas] deem that practicing the ten paramitas

enables one to realize the ten bhumis because they

think that by acting on a cause, one can benefit from its

fruit in the future. In this way they deviate and remain

hindered for three more kalpas.

 

 

When practitioners of the Mahayana sutras hear about

total perfection, as they do not understand that their own

mind is the fundamental nature, they are not able to relax

in the authentic condition. In this way they continue

training and progressing for three kalpas.

 

 

Even though the fundamental nature is pure and total

consciousness, [the Bodhisattvas] speak of the two

truths: absolute and relative, and on this basis they apply

the ten paramitas, starting with generosity and morality,

to tread gradually the ten levels of realization. Thus, not

understanding the fundamental nature, they remain at the

level of training.

 

That which transcends judging and analyzing is hindered by the sutric tradition:

judging and analyzing total perfection means falling into

the misleading deviation of the followers of the sutras.

 

When the five objects of the single, natural condition

manifest, due to desire and aversion, [bodhisattvas]

deem them the abode of attachment. Consequently, they

try to purify them, even though in reality precisely these

are self-arising wisdom. Thus, unable to purify them in

less than one long kalpa, they continue to transmigrate in

the three worlds.

 

 

 

In the sutras of Bodhisattvayana,

With the intention (of attaining) “ the Total Light” (11 th/stage)

Through the concepts and analysis of the two truths.

It is asserted that the ultimate nature is emptiness like space.

(Whereas) the great bliss of Atiyoga

Is the enlightened mind, free from concepts and analysis.

The sutras obscure the (state of) freedom from concepts

and analysis.

The (view with) concepts and analysis in Dzogpa Chenpo

Is a diversion to the sutras.

 

In the Vajra-essence of the clarity [luminous absorption]

of Dzogpa Chenpo, which is the path of liberation of

thoughts and emotional defilements, one realizes the non­

existence of the nature (Rang-bZhin) of emotional defile­

ments in the nature (gShis) of Intrinsic Awareness. So this

division doesn’t abandon (defilements) as Sravakas and

Pratyekabuddhas do. It doesn’t subdue (the defilements)

as do Bodhisattvas, since here, the antidotes and the things

to be abandoned are of the same substance (rDzas).

 

According to Mahayana Buddhism, the essence of the whole

doctrine of the Buddha is the perfection of wisdom. Dzogpa

Chenpo realizes and perfects the primordial wisdom directly

and nakedly. By perfecting the primordial wisdom one per­fects

all the other perfections, as all of them are attributes of

the primordial wisdom.

 

 

In the realization of selflessness, Sravakaydna and

Pratyekabuddhayana assert that (the most subtle) cogni­

tion and atom are absolute truth. Yogacarya asserts that

the consciousness of self-awareness and self-clarity is the

thoroughly established absolute truth. (All of them) do not

transcend mind and mental events

Madhyamaka appre­hends space like emptiness, the truth of cessation

and freedom from extremes and elaboration, etc., by analysis of

the two truths, through examination of four reasonings,

such as non-arising, non-ceasing, non-existing, and not

non-existing. 

(The views of these Yanas) are created and modified by

the mind, the mind of eight consciousnesses, which are

the defilements to be abandoned. In the Natural Great Per­

fection (Dzogpa Chenpo), all the virtues of the nature are

present spontaneously as uncompounded clarity [luminous

absorption] in the Mind, which transcends the mind and

is the Intrinsic Awareness and spontaneously arisen wis­

dom. So it is naturally free and does not depend on

cau­sations of creator and created or other conditions, like the

character of space. It is present without any changes. So

the primordial lord [buddha], Samantabhadra himself,

also is enlightened by realizing this spontaneously

arisen primordial wisdom itself without creation and not

by other conditions such as compounding accumulations,

studying, and pondering.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 28, 2015 by Anderson

[Jeff]

Hi Anderson,

 

Thanks for the post. Could you state who or where it is found?

 

Also, I see that the text states that it is effectively a "better and different" path, but do you really get that it rejects Mahayana (says it is wrong)? Are you stating that Dzogchen "emptiness" is somehow different that Mahayana "emptiness"? And thus, even buddhahood between the two is different?

 

 

Regards,

Jeff

Edited November 28, 2015 by Jeff

[Bubbles]

Perhaps we should not hasten to draw conclusion that Dzogchen rejects Mahayana.

 

The following quote is taken from : The practice of Dzogchen : Longchen Rabjam's writings on the Great Perfection

pp 178-180

 

The emphasis in bold are mine.

 

***********************

The following are some of the series of six constituents given by Longchen Rabjam in Mengag Dzod (MD) to summarize and illustrate various ethical, philosophical, religious, and meditational points of Dharma. The important factors for entering the Dharma: MD 1b/4

 

The six important things for entering the Dharma are

Observing discipline, the basis of the path,

Studying various subjects without falling into bias,

Pacifying the three doors and one's own mind,

Refraining from unvirtuous deeds, and developing virtuous deeds,

Having shame, embarassment and developing faith,

And having a virtuous master and virtuous friends.

These are very important for beginners.

 

The characteristics of solitude: MD 2a14

 

The six important factors for living in solitude are

A solitary place with (virtuous) signs,

Which past adepts have touched with their feet,

Where the vow-holders assemble because it is unpolluted by defilements,

Where there are no distractions and entertainments,

Where the provisions of living are easy to obtain,

And where there is no danger from either human or non-human beings.

 

Longchen Rabjam stresses that the condensing of all the different yanas into

one is the means of reaching Buddhahood, and he rejects the view that they are

contradictory bodies of teachings. He concludes Semnyid Ngalso with the following words: SN 55b/4

 

Now, ordinary people whose minds' eyes are not pure,

Take the different paths of the continuum (tantra) and of perfection (paramita)

To be contradictory. They are unaware of the way to unite them as one.

Therefore, they have the eyes of partiality.

Here (in this text), the supremely profound meanings of (all) the yanas, of

causation and result,

(I) have condensed as one, as the means of training.

This was written in the fortress of Ogyen at White-topped Snow Mountain

By the raising of Immaculate Rays (i.e., Longchen Rabjam).

 

According to Longchen Rabjam's view, all the virtues of the nine yanas are

condensed in the awareness, the enlightened mind (Byang-Chub Sems)

of Dzogpa Chenpo: CD 10a/5

 

The scriptures of the 'Sravakas, Pratyeka-buddhas, and Bodhisattvas

Agree in (the view of) determining non-existence of ''self (of person)" and "self of (phenomena)"

And in the freedom from conceptualizations, like space.

In the scriptures of the supremely secret and great yoga of Ati,

In the space-like freedom from distinctions of self and others,

The self-arisen primordial wisdom, one remains.

So all the meaning (of the previous yanas) is condensed in this supreme essence (awareness).

The classes of (outer tantras), Kriya, Upa (yoga) and Upa (tantra),

Agree that by the means of offering-clouds of self, deity, and contemplations

One attains the accomplishment of the purification of the three doors.

In the secret vajra-summit, the king of the teachings,

One actualizes the perceptions, sounds, and thoughts as the deities from the primordial state

And accomplishes the purification of the three doors.

So the realization of those (three yanas) is completed in this supreme essence (awareness).

The three (inner tantras), Maha, Anu, and Ati agree:

The world and beings, phenomenal existents, are the male and female deities and their pure lands,

The ultimate sphere and primordial wisdom are perfect in union,

And the ultimate nature is changeless and self-arisen primordial wisdom.

In this most supreme secret (awareness), since all are (primordially) perfected,

And, except for (the appearances of) uncreated mansions in the pure land of blissful primordial expanse,

Which has no outer or inner dimensions, are omnipresent,

There are no characteristic phenomena of efforts, acceptances, or rejections.

All are liberated in the infinite expanse of Dharmakaya.

So all the realizations of the (nine yanas) are completed in this great secret essence (awareness).

 

************************************

[Bubbles]

Dzogchen doesn't seem to reject much Mahayana:

 

 

Found in Mind in Comfort and ease: The vison of Enlightenment in the Great Perfection by Longchen Rabjam

 

The Preliminary practices

 

The general and specific Preliminaries

Reflection on impermanence and feeling disenchanted are the general preliminaries

That radically counteract our attachment to the things of this life

And compassion and bodhichitta are the specific preliminaries

That transform all spiritual practice into the path of Mahayana

Train therefore at the outset on both these preliminaries

 

The special, Supreme Preliminaries

Afterwards, there are the special, supreme preliminary practices.

Having received all the empowerments, there are two aspects to the generation stage:

[1] Imagining your own body as the deity and the surrounding environment and sentient beings also as the deity

Counteracts attachment to our ordinary perception.

[2] By practicing the profound path of guru yoga,

Blessings beyond measure arise through the force of realization,

All obstacles are dispelled and the two types of siddhi are achieved.

Therefore, after the general and specific preliminaries, practice the two supreme preliminaries.

Boundless qualities arise as a result of these four preliminaries:

Your mind enters the unerring path,

Your reach the supreme path of liberation,

Realization of the natural condition swiftly arises,

It becomes easy to train in the main practices, with no obstacles,

Accomplishments are readily achieved, and so on.

Therefore it is crucial to train in these preliminaries.

[…]

 

Later in the text, we find:

 

The realization

[…]

Naturally arising wisdom, inspiring by the blessing of the lama,

Is seen when you have transcended verbal expression and conceptual ideas.

What is seen in this way, at that time,

Is beyond the three times, beyond outer and inner, and beyond any division and exclusion.

 

It is the transcendent perfection of wisdom (Prajnaparamita) and the Middle Way,

It is the pacification of conceptual elaborations and suffering, Mahamudra,

The essential nature of phenomena, the Great Perfection,

Primordial cessation in which all dharmas are exhausted, the fundamental nature of things,

And the clear light nature of mind, naturally arisen wisdom.

Although they are given different names, in essence they are one.

[…]

[Anderson]

Hi Anderson,

 

Thanks for the post. Could you state who or where it is found?

 

Also, I see that the text states that it is effectively a "better and different" path, but do you really get that it rejects Mahayana (says it is wrong)? Are you stating that Dzogchen "emptiness" is somehow different that Mahayana "emptiness"? And thus, even buddhahood between the two is different?

 

 

Regards,

Jeff

 

 

The sources are from Longchenpa and Kunjed Gyalpo.

In some other restricted texts there are literally hundreds of quotes where these paths are considered erroneous for their deviations from the real meaning of primordial state.There are whole lists with deviations and obstacles practitioners on these paths engage in.

[Anderson]

Dzogchen doesn't seem to reject much Mahayana:

 

 

Found in Mind in Comfort and ease: The vison of Enlightenment in the Great Perfection by Longchen Rabjam

 

The Preliminary practices

 

The general and specific Preliminaries

Reflection on impermanence and feeling disenchanted are the general preliminaries

That radically counteract our attachment to the things of this life

And compassion and bodhichitta are the specific preliminaries

That transform all spiritual practice into the path of Mahayana

Train therefore at the outset on both these preliminaries

 

The special, Supreme Preliminaries

Afterwards, there are the special, supreme preliminary practices.

Having received all the empowerments, there are two aspects to the generation stage:

[1] Imagining your own body as the deity and the surrounding environment and sentient beings also as the deity

Counteracts attachment to our ordinary perception.

[2] By practicing the profound path of guru yoga,

Blessings beyond measure arise through the force of realization,

All obstacles are dispelled and the two types of siddhi are achieved.

Therefore, after the general and specific preliminaries, practice the two supreme preliminaries.

Boundless qualities arise as a result of these four preliminaries:

Your mind enters the unerring path,

Your reach the supreme path of liberation,

Realization of the natural condition swiftly arises,

It becomes easy to train in the main practices, with no obstacles,

Accomplishments are readily achieved, and so on.

Therefore it is crucial to train in these preliminaries.

[…]

 

These have nothing to do with dzogchen.

You can do a billion number of preliminaries but that doesnt mean you are practicing dzoghcen.

Edited November 28, 2015 by Anderson

[Jeff]

The sources are from Longchenpa and Kunjed Gyalpo.

In some other restricted texts there are literally hundreds of quotes where these paths are considered erroneous for their deviations from the real meaning of primordial state.There are whole lists with deviations and obstacles practitioners on these paths engage in.

 

Very interesting. Thanks. Would you also say that would relate to the percieved difference between an arhat and a Buddha?