Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche speaks of his recent retreat

[Anderson]

Very interesting. Thanks. Would you also say that would relate to the percieved difference between an arhat and a Buddha?

 

Well definitely, an arhat is not a Buddha in the sense of  how total realisation is understood in dzogchen.

[Tibetan_Ice]

Anderson,

That is funny... You quoted this as part of your support that Dzogchen rejects Mahayana:

In the Vajra-essence of the clarity [luminous absorption]

of Dzogpa Chenpo, which is the path of liberation of

thoughts and emotional defilements, one realizes the non­

existence of the nature (Rang-bZhin) of emotional defile­

ments in the nature (gShis) of Intrinsic Awareness. So this

division doesn’t abandon (defilements) as Sravakas and

Pratyekabuddhas do. It doesn’t subdue (the defilements)

as do Bodhisattvas, since here, the antidotes and the things

to be abandoned are of the same substance (rDzas).

 

 

This is the quote from The Practice of Dzogchen Longchen Rabjam’s Writings on the Great Perfection REVISED AND EXPANDED EDITION INTRODUCED, TRANSLATED, AND ANNOTATED BY Tulku Thondup Edited by Harold Talbott SNOW LION BOSTON & LONDON 2014:

 

Jigmed Lingpa writes on the superiority of the Esoteric Instruction division (man ngag sde) over the other yānas and the lower divisions of Dzogpa Chenpo itself:180

 

In the vajra-essence of the clarity [luminous absorption] of Dzogpa Chenpo, which is the path of liberation of thoughts and emotional defilements, one realizes the nonexistence of the nature (rang bzhin) of emotional defilements in the nature (gshis) of intrinsic awareness. So this division doesn’t abandon [defilements] as śrāvakas and pratyekabuddhas do. It doesn’t subdue [the defilements] as do bodhisattvas, since here, the antidotes and the things to be abandoned are of the same substance (rdzas).

 

The funny part is that the author of The Practice of Dzogchen states this at the beginning of that book:

My main aim in preparing this book is to provide the following clarifications: (a) The common Mahayana Buddhist views are the basis of Dzogpa Chenpo teachings. ( All the essential aspects of Buddhist training are condensed in Dzogpa Chenpo, and Dzogpa Chenpo is the essence of Buddhist teachings. © To become a Dzogpa Chenpo trainee one needs to train through the common preparatory studies and meditations. As Dzogpa Chenpo is the highest and the most simple training, it requires earnest preparation and meditation.

 

You have quoted from a book whose purpose is to support the connection between Mahayana and Dzogchen, yet you claim that Dzogchen rejects Mahayana. Very funny.

 

[Anderson]

Well, all texts quoted were written by Longchenpa.

 

I can't see the rationale behind rejecting the preliminaries of Dzogchen when Longchenpa himself says they are of utmost importance and that their practice will give as results:

 

 

Actually I am not sure you read my post carefully and entirely.

 

If you care about Longchenpa's words, you may read what follows:

 

 

 

The dzogchen preliminaries are lojong,rushens and semzins.

Among these, some like some lojong practices, not matter how long you practice them for they will not bring you any closer to a clear understanding of your nature.They are done with a different purpose in mind.Is to re-orient and redirect ones energy  towards to path of dzogchen.You would be missing the point completely if you would consider these practices proper dzogchen.

The rest, rushens and semzins,  are done  with the purpose of developing capacity to recognise and stabilise that which was introduced by the teacher.

The point is , if you have this disposition and understanding, you can use mahayana related practices to develop certain aspects of you mind but don't kid yourself thinking that these practices will bring you any closer to the recognition of your nature.And this is the main fault of mahayana for which reason is rejected by dozghen tantras .Mahayana is  as deviation from the single nature and errs into construing aspects of our capacity using cause and effect.This happens because it does not understand the utterly perfect condition of our primordial state and the fact that all these aspects which mahayana attempts to construct are already perfected in the natural state.

In other words mahayana starts from an impure view where the individual is seen as lacking somehow, for reason which it thinks that he/she needs to develop virtue and gain accomplishments.This is a direct non-recognition of the utterly perfect state which lacks nothing.

And a dzogchen practitioner this is what he does, it recognizes from the very BEGINNING of the path the total perfection of the state and rests in it as much as possible.

[Anderson]

Anderson, That is funny... You quoted this as part of your support that Dzogchen rejects Mahayana: This is the quote from The Practice of Dzogchen Longchen Rabjam’s Writings on the Great Perfection REVISED AND EXPANDED EDITION INTRODUCED, TRANSLATED, AND ANNOTATED BY Tulku Thondup Edited by Harold Talbott SNOW LION BOSTON & LONDON 2014: The funny part is that the author of The Practice of Dzogchen states this at the beginning of that book: You have quoted from a book whose purpose is to support the connection between Mahayana and Dzogchen, yet you claim that Dzogchen rejects Mahayana. Very funny.

 

 

Dzogchen is an independent path which has a beginning and an end.

If you start here what it makes sense is to  adopt the view, study and practice according to this vehicle.

And according to this vehicle everything bellow is a deviation.

In practice, mahayana has its uses, as i said above to re-direct and focus your energy and motivation towards the path of dzogchen.

But when it comes to using the view and practices of mahayana with the purpose of salvation and as a vehicle in itself , this is seen as an obstacle and a deviation which will prevent the aspirant practitioners from understanding and recognition of primordial state for a very very long time.

[Bubbles]

The dzogchen preliminaries are lojong,rushens and semzins.

Among these, some like some lojong practices, not matter how long you practice them for they will not bring you any closer to a clear understanding of your nature.They are done with a different purpose in mind.Is to re-orient and redirect ones energy  towards to path of dzogchen.You would be missing the point completely if you would consider these practices proper dzogchen.

The rest, rushens and semzins,  are done  with the purpose of developing capacity to recognise and stabilise that which was introduced by the teacher.

The point is , if you have this disposition and understanding, you can use mahayana related practices to develop certain aspects of you mind but don't kid yourself thinking that these practices will bring you any closer to the recognition of your nature.And this is the main fault of mahayana for which reason is rejected by dozghen tantras .Mahayana is  as deviation from the single nature and errs into construing aspects of our capacity using cause and effect.This happens because it does not understand the utterly perfect condition of our primordial state and the fact that all these aspects which mahayana attempts to construct are already perfected in the natural state.

In other words mahayana starts from an impure view where the individual is seen as lacking somehow, for reason which it thinks that he/she needs to develop virtue and gain accomplishments.This is a direct non-recognition of the utterly perfect state which lacks nothing.

And a dzogchen practitioner this is what he does, it recognizes from the very BEGINNING of the path the total perfection of the state and rests in it as much as possible.

 

I understand what you are talking about.

But to me this is just a useless quarrel: I can't see in any of Longchenpa texts I read that Mahayana has to be rejected nor it to be a deviation.

Integration of all three yanas into the Great Perfection is one thing. Rejecting all of them is another one.

 

Thank you for taking the time to explain what you had in mind.

[RigdzinTrinley]

Oi weh

 

I will do my best to stop reading this thread

 

All the best to everybody and may the uncontrived and unbiased view be born in the mindstreams of all beings

Edited November 29, 2015 by RigdzinTrinley

[C T]

Dzogchen draws enough parallels between Dharmakaya and all-encompassing, stainless space. 

 

How can one who has established this truth as experience then go forth and adopts a view which consists of acceptance and rejection? 

[Anderson]

Dzogchen draws enough parallels between Dharmakaya and all-encompassing, stainless space. 

 

How can one who has established this truth as experience then go forth and adopts a view which consists of acceptance and rejection? 

 

I think some of you have completely misunderstood what is the message here.

What i have written has been given from the perspective of dzogchen and what this means is that if you practice dzogchen , as a dzogchenpa you do not employ the views of the other yanas in order to develop your dzogchen practice.But what you can do is use any practice and method from all these yanas with the view of dzogchen.

The fact that dzogchen tantras appear to criticise the views of the other yanas it doesnt mean permission or license to go  and criticise others for their choices .Because if you consider yourself a dzogchenpa and go and tell people what's wrong with them and their practice it means you haven't understood a thing.( i am myself guilty of this...working on it)

These obstacles, deviations and erroneous views  are pointers to use on ourselves and to make us aware of the fact that we could stray from the single nature .

[C T]

I think some of you have completely misunderstood what is the message here.

What i have written has been given from the perspective of dzogchen and what this means is that if you practice dzogchen , as a dzogchenpa you do not employ the views of the other yanas in order to develop your dzogchen practice.But what you can do is use any practice and method from all these yanas with the view of dzogchen.

The fact that dzogchen tantras appear to criticise the views of the other yanas it doesnt mean permission or license to go  and criticise others for their choices .Because if you consider yourself a dzogchenpa and go and tell people what's wrong with them and their practice it means you haven't understood a thing.( i am myself guilty of this...working on it)

These obstacles, deviations and erroneous views  are pointers to use on ourselves and to make us aware of the fact that we could stray from the single nature .

Thank you for clarifying, and i agree with the general premise of whats been said, especially the part in bold. 

 

However, there are some Vajrayana schools that put quite heavy emphasis on the continued practice of the prelims as means to stabilise view, meditation and conduct. Rigpa (the group) is one of these schools.