Thunder Path

[Jakara]

Initiation ceremonies raise one's energy level a bit hgiher, making it easier ot anchor in the energy they are pulling in, becoming aware of. Thus making it easier to anchor the teaching sfor the level of energy.

 

Its a big push for the time , but if one does nothing with it afterwards, it is useless, until the energy has been cultivated again.

 

Peace,

Lin

 

Ok thats interesting, so are you saying that it is completely viable to practice a system without initiations, only the practitioner would be at more of a disadvantage than someone who had taken the initiations?

[林愛偉]

Ok thats interesting, so are you saying that it is completely viable to practice a system without initiations, only the practitioner would be at more of a disadvantage than someone who had taken the initiations?

 

 

Initiations mean a lot of things to the people giving them. But basically, you can practice anything you want without the initiations. Depending on what you are practicing, eventually one's energy would reach that of the level of the origin of the cultivation method...so to say.

 

Initiation ceremonies are also for making sure some cultivators "entering" the room of cultivation stick to their practice. It has many functions, and not at all useless...but if what is transmitted is not utilized, it is useless.

 

The disadvantage is just in the mind of the practitioner.

 

Peace,

Lin

[Wun Yuen Gong]

I agree with Lin, even after one gets the transmission they still need to train there practises and there is no guarentees they will ever get there abilities from there practises. One needs to sit and meditate or do there pacific jongs without wanting or expecting this is the WAY of heaven. Sometimes you will get information from your teacher without being taught what it is for because if he or she tells you one simple may not attain the skills because the power of suggestion.

 

WYG

[Adam West]

Edited November 1, 2007 by Adam West

[Jakara]

Ok good stuff so far, I haven't yet explored the Hindu yogic systems, which is perhaps surprising as its apparently where it all started. Should be a treat to read into the Indian pranayama systems. Ive previously avoided the kundalini stuff because of its non orthodox, almost hippy-like status.

 

So to reiterate, the most accessible and complete system with some (limited) proof would be the six yogas system with or without the initiations.

[Pero]

No, that is NOT true. You need transmission.

[rex]

Ah I see. I guess it was a long shot. Thanks for the replies so far. The best chance I think then is to pursue the 6 yogas of Naropa system and try to somehow get the empowerments? I choose this system because the claims have (to some extent) been verified by harvard university: http://www.hno.harvard.edu/gazette/2002/04.18/09-tummo.html as well as having a large following.

 

Does anyone know if empowerments/initiations are absolutely essential, as in you literally cannot do the practice with any success without them, or are they just highly recommended?

The vajrayana tradition stresses that initiation is absolutely indispensible. The references Adam mentioned, Clear Light of Bliss and The Bliss of Inner Fire state this too. Separating the physical techniques from the underlying philosophy and deity practice may be possible, but I wouldn't do the deity practices, seed syllable visualisations and mantras without initiation.

[Wun Yuen Gong]

www.daoistmagic.com has Thunder magic and rituals, there is a book i have Taoist Master Chuang he is a Thunder Magic master of Maoshan sect i think!

[Adam West]

No, that is NOT true. You need transmission.

 

Hi Pero,

 

We need to separate religious, traditional dogma (initiation is absolute must - socio-cultural construct) and object, empirical fact. Is it necessary, I don't think so. Could be wrong. But I have done the research, that is what appears so to me, at this time. It remains a working hypothesis at this stage though.

 

In kind regards,

 

Adam.

[Matt]

Edited December 21, 2008 by Matt

[Jakara]

Ok, so although I am interested in ritual in general, in this particular discussion im just talking about the alchemy aspects of the various traditions. So thunder magic, although interesting, isn't what I mean.

 

What gets me is that if these traditions, such as daoism, tantric buddhism etc all have similar internal alchemy methods and one requires initiations whereas the others do not, are the initiations an absolute must?

 

Can we not strip away the religious dogma associated with what must essentially be a "human" practice regardless of religious orientation?

 

Matt, Im not fussed about Chang's martial abilities, but his advancement along the path to enlightenment does interest me. Though as i said before, im sure there are (easier) systems that get the same "spiritual" results without the martial aspect of it.

[lockpaw]

But from experience, I can tell you, if you spend time relaxing deeply into the non-dual state, your energies in the central channel will activate and awaken of their own accord; the bindu will drip down the channel and all that (assuming you accept that particular metaphysics).

 

Adam,

 

Were you following a specific tradition or technique? How long did it take you?

 

LP

[sunshine]

I personally believe that in a way most of the "schools" have some kind of "initiation", be it officially mentioned or not. I do not believe one easily can connect to any kind of lineage by picking up a practice one has read about and start practicing it, if one is not "aligned" to this specific lineage prebirth-"technically". I mean: if everybody were meant to "achieve" things would probably much more easy and much more accessible. If they do not want you in their lineage, for whatever reasons that might be, you will not get in... seems to be logical at least...

 

 

Harry

[三江源]

Why do you think there is a high degree of probability?

Actually, Loppon Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche was in Italy about ten days ago. If I remember right he`ll be visiting France as well. Also his student Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche teaches in Europe. I also remember that there was another student of Loppon in England this year.

 

Pero... please forgive me for asking such a basic question... do you have a site that keeps you informed of these events that you could share with me?

 

thankyou.

[Pero]

Hi Pero,

 

We need to separate religious, traditional dogma (initiation is absolute must - socio-cultural construct) and object, empirical fact. Is it necessary, I don't think so. Could be wrong. But I have done the research, that is what appears so to me, at this time. It remains a working hypothesis at this stage though.

 

In kind regards,

 

Adam.

 

That is not dogma, it is a fact. Had you actually done the research, you would now it is a must. At least in Vajrayana. Don`t know about other traditions. But 6 yogas belong to it. And they contain transforming oneself into a deity and chanting it`s mantra before doing any of the 6 yogas. It is integral part of the 6 yogas.

 

Pero... please forgive me for asking such a basic question... do you have a site that keeps you informed of these events that you could share with me?

 

thankyou.

 

What is wrong with such a question?

I read it on E-sangha. Upcoming Bon Teachings

 

(you need to be registered to read though)

[Jakara]

I find it hard to accept religious doctrine as "fact", as a proffesional physicist im taught to look at the evidence, which is what we are trying to do. If you have some accounts of people who have tried to do the six yogas and failed due to not having the correct initiations then thats fair enough. But I don't want to simply accept what a book or a teacher or even a whole tradition says as fact simply because they say it is, without any reason.

 

According to some texts the six yogas doesn't neccessarily transform oneself into a deity, it can be used as an accelerant to becoming enlightened, in which case we cease to be a deity as such.

 

But this isn't what troubles me, what troubles me is that there are many similar practices out there under the name of QiGong, to take one example, that require no religious aspiration at all. The results can be acheived without initiations, even if ther are very helpful.

 

I was under the impression that energy work (such as QiGong or Pranayama) in this sense is used as a tool, or as a means to an end; enlightenment for example, and that the religious doctrine associated with it simply tailors it to the required specification.

 

We know about martial artists who can harness these systems for use in martial power, healers using it for healing and the religious can use it for religious goals.

 

So perhaps if one wants to become a deity in Vajrayana we must have the correct empowerments. But can we not simply use the same "tools" i.e. Tummo in the six yogas for other spiritual acheivement?

Edited November 1, 2007 by Jakara

[Pero]

I find it hard to accept religious doctrine as "fact", as a proffesional physicist im taught to look at the evidence, which is what we are trying to do. If you have some accounts of people who have tried to do the six yogas and failed due to not having the correct initiations then thats fair enough. But I don't want to simply accept what a book or a teacher or even a whole tradition says as fact simply because they say it is, without any reason.

 

Well you`re accepting that tummo is a fact aren`t you? But not deity transformation? And they`re coming from the same "doctrine". Come on. You`re just not accepting the deity transformation because you don`t understand it. Actually, now that I think about it, I was the same, thought it was useless. But it was simply because I didn`t understand.

I don`t know if maybe someone had some success with the 6 yogas without the transmission. Oh actually I remember an article where a guy learned tummo from a book and seemed like he had success with it. But what good will it do? If you don`t know what to do with it? You think you achieve some heat (which is not even the goal) and that`s it, you`re enlightened?

Also, there`s always the chance that effects manifest at the expense of ones merit....

 

According to some texts the six yogas doesn't neccessarily transform oneself into a deity, it can be used as an accelerant to becoming enlightened, in which case we cease to be a deity as such.

 

I don`t understand. The deity is enlightened. Once you get enlightened you are like the deity in a sense.

 

But this isn't what troubles me, what troubles me is that there are many similar practices out there under the name of QiGong, to take one example, that require no religious aspiration at all. The results can be acheived without initiations, even if ther are very helpful.

 

Then why not do those practices?

 

So perhaps if one wants to become a deity in Vajrayana we must have the correct empowerments. But can we not simply use the same "tools" i.e. Tummo in the six yogas for other spiritual acheivement?

 

Not in Vajrayana. And also, you should learn these things from a teacher who can correct you if you`re doing something wrong, or if something goes wrong.

[Pero]

You can find an accurate description of them and Mahamudra in the books: Clear Light of Bliss : The Practice of Mahamudra in Vajrayana Buddhism and The Bliss of Inner Fire: Heart Practice of the Six Yogas of Naropa. Clear light is the best in the field, in terms of open publishing of the secrets. It also covers Mahamudra, which is very similar to Dzogchen, of which you previously mentioned. Buy it or them, and see for yourself. There initiation is not required to make it work, you are just working with consciousness and energy.

 

The vajrayana tradition stresses that initiation is absolutely indispensible. The references Adam mentioned, Clear Light of Bliss and The Bliss of Inner Fire state this too.

 

 

Another option for you, if you want to work with hardcore, authentic kundalini methods of India, is: Kundalini Tantra by Swami Satyananda Saraswati and his student and the current teaching head of his tradition and school Prana Pranayama Prana Vidya

by Niranjanananda Swami. It is super powerful stuff, but not without its dangers. Even still, it is the hours of practice you put in, that will determine your results.

 

I have a few of his books, very interesting, but I never really practiced regularly.

Edited November 1, 2007 by Pero

[mantis]

adam, have you done that 2-3 week instant liberation thing off of samadhiheritage.org? if so, how was it?

[joeblast]

From what I understood from reading stuff on the foundation forum (verdesi et al.,) certain levels of achievement are extremely hard to get through without a master's transmission - as in you can literally spend 5-10 years wallowing around in the mud when you could do it in a year or two with a master's guidance & transmission. One reason it was said that mo pai wasnt as effective as it could be was that masters would only do transmissions after a certain level, a level which was very tough to get to without a transmission in the first place. Reasons cited about how john chang hasnt really produced any students in his ~30 years (but at the same time, I understand that he never really intended on being a teacher that produced students, he is just a very good healer.)

 

I'm really not in the know on such things...its just what I read

[Jakara]

Well you`re accepting that tummo is a fact aren`t you? But not deity transformation? And they`re coming from the same "doctrine". Come on. You`re just not accepting the deity transformation because you don`t understand it.

 

And also, you should learn these things from a teacher who can correct you if you`re doing something wrong, or if something goes wrong.

 

 

Im not accepting Tummo as fact, it just has a reasonable amount of proof conducted by non crack-pot scientists at a respected institute.

I do accept the deity transformation, but transforming oneself into a deity or immortal is not the same as becoming one with Dao or reaching Nirvana, they are two different paths using different techniques (according to the daoists). I have an intellectual understanding of the processes involved, though no practical experience with deity transformation.

 

I have received excellent teachings on non-dualistic meditation and yes having the teacher there really does help. But finding one for alchemical processes is not an easy task so many are left to their own devices. I think with enough background in meditation and a good understanding of other similar practices it shouldnt be too hard to do practices such as the six yogas without initiation.

 

But my point here is not to participate in a typical internet debate where everyone knows best and they all want their opinion to count. I simply want to know if there are any viable systems out there that are available, or are the existing ones available without initiation/empowerments.

If they aren't accessible without initiation then please explain in detail why they are not, or give examples as to why.

 

Im aware that its harder to do practices without guidance, but that doesn't mean we have to attend some ritual for permission to be able to do a practice that is essentially human, not owned by a religion or tradition.

[Pero]

I do accept the deity transformation, but transforming oneself into a deity or immortal is not the same as becoming one with Dao or reaching Nirvana, they are two different paths using different techniques (according to the daoists).

 

But see, I think this is already where you are mistaken. Becoming the deity is reaching Nirvana.

 

I have received excellent teachings on non-dualistic meditation and yes having the teacher there really does help. But finding one for alchemical processes is not an easy task so many are left to their own devices. I think with enough background in meditation and a good understanding of other similar practices it shouldnt be too hard to do practices such as the six yogas without initiation.

 

Well, you can do whatever you want of course. The question is, where it will lead you...

 

Im aware that its harder to do practices without guidance, but that doesn't mean we have to attend some ritual for permission to be able to do a practice that is essentially human, not owned by a religion or tradition.

 

Which practice would that be?

In Vajrayana, it does in mean that you need an initiation. And it`s not only for permission, initiation connects you to the lineage. No transmission, no Vajrayana. I don`t know about other systems, but for example, the Lei Shan Dao, that is talked so much about, also uses transmission, without which one wouldn`t be able to practice...

 

But anyway, I don`t know if I wanted my opinion to count too much perhaps, you can believe whatever you want. I said my piece and I wish you good luck.

[Jakara]

So as far as I know in the daoist traditions there are a few types of immortal, like earthly, heavenly etc and then there is becoming one with dao itself, where one ceases to be individual in that sense, presumabley by the unwinding of thier qi. Becoming one of the immortals requires training in that particular type of cultivation to change one's qi alchemy into the required "format" to become the immortal.

 

In the tibetan buddhist system (again as far as I know) when we die we become reborn into one of the 6 realms; hell, hungry ghost, animal, human, demi-god and god (for want of better phrases). Our kama/qi patterns again determine what we are reborn as. Or we can become liberated as a non-being, becoming part of the universal existence itself.

 

So what I mean is, we can shape our qi to become an immortal using the alchemical path (John Chang is a popular example) or the same technique to become a deity. But we can bypass all this and become liberated completely, hence the deity is not liberated and still subject to a rebirth at some point (according to certain buddhist doctrine).

 

So anyway, the so called 'highest' paths (eg wu-wei daoism and dzogchen) are meant to be where we are going straight for liberation - but auxillary methods like qigong and inner alchemy that are usually used to become a deity or immortal can be used to speed up the process. But obviously they aren't used in the same way or we would become an immortal. This is what i meant by 'tailoring' of the methods to a sepcific tradition.

 

The alchemy methods must be to some extent 'generic' that we can tailor for a specific purpose. Yes to become whatever a Vajra practitioner becomes they may require the Vajra initiations, but that does not mean we can't use the same techniques, stripped of the 'tailoring' and apply it for a different aim. Or does it? This is the interesting question. Many sources indicate that we can use these techniques because Qigong is generic, and has such a huge number of practices that are similar to buddhist alchemies it seems highly likely.

 

Why not use one of these Qigong methods? The daoists have encrypted texts and are very secretive about them :-) The buddhists are more liberal but insist of initiations. But are these initiations still required if we make the teachings generic so they are more like daoist teachings? Given that they are so similar to begin with.

[rex]

This is just my interpretation of why initiation is considered essential in Tantric Buddhism.

Im aware that its harder to do practices without guidance, but that doesn't mean we have to attend some ritual for permission to be able to do a practice that is essentially human, not owned by a religion or tradition.

This is a rational and humanistic view that I have great sympathy for. However my sympathy is tempered by respect for the traditions that discovered these methods, and their chosen mode of dissemination. The tantric world is not rational and humanistic.

 

Tantric methods were taught to the Mahasiddhas on a mystical level. In this respect an initiation/empowerment is a transfer of mystical energy, and an entry into a mandala - the source of the teachings - that automatically puts the initiate into a set of relationships with transpersonal energies. It is these transpersonal energies that set the ground rules of entry, and as Harry nicely sums up, “If they do not want you in their lineage, for whatever reasons that might be, you will not get in... seems to be logical at least...”. So the practice and permission is owned by the mandala which is the power behind a tradition.

 

It’s difficult enough for committed Buddhists to get access to these methods; and as mentioned in an interesting FAQ on Kundalini and Tibetan Buddhism, the challenge is for the student to find access to them. Good luck!

Edited November 1, 2007 by rex

[Jakara]

I think I recall the original Buddha saying something along the lines of enlightenment being for everybody, all races and classes of people, every human being. To hide enlightenment techniques such as the yogas seems a bit un-buddhist of those buddhist traditions. The tantric buddhists owe their lineage to the original buddha, who did not discriminate.

 

Apparently only the special or elite class of people are aloud access to these techniques? I find that hard to believe. If these techniques were intended for the good of humanity then all humanity should be able to practice them unhindered.

 

Perhaps religious dogma (as always it seems) has gotten in the way of the original teachings. Its easy to see why if we look at the shamanistic and martial influences on the systems from ancient china and tibet. If a system could make your clan more powerful you wouldnt want the clan next door to know about it.

 

Anyway I can sit here and speculate all day and not get anywhere :-) Anyone with hard experience with the six yogas or similar daoist techniques care to comment?