Thunder Path

[Pero]

Good pop psychology. Of course if someone is advertising these systems like they have been doing its not unreasonable for others to be interested. But why publish all this stuff and write stories about the short path to enlightenment if its not accessible? Its like Dangling a carrot on a stick and saying we have this and you can't get it. Again it seems a bit un-buddhist.

 

The only reason I would expect to take it under my own terms, as you so put it, is because it is advertised as a buddhist system - "For the benefit of all beings" is there some small print? : as long as they make it through our requirements?

 

Hmmm what advertising? I never saw any, just sort of stumbled on it by "coincidence".

It`s not inaccessible. Like I said, Lopon Rinpoche was in Italy last month. And there were teachings on Bon Dzogchen in France from July 22 to August 10, I also remember some being in England in the past... There are many teachings going on, also for example on HDOD in France in April 2008.

 

You just have to look for it, not want it to be brought before you on a silver plater.

 

http://www.yungdrungbon.nl/

 

http://www.ligmincha.org/ligww/ligww.html

 

Pero seems to know a good deal on buddhism, but hasn't given any explanations yet, only "nope you can't do it". Excuse me if I don't take one persons word on it without reason.

 

Lol, actually I don`t, really. I think Rex knows much much much more than me.

I understand not taking my word for it, no problem at all.

Thing is, it`s not my word only, but of Dzogchen teachers as well.

 

BTW, I asked about that quote you gave me. And the answer from a student of Lopon Rinpoche was that you do need a teacher in Bon as well. Basically the teacher gives you the path, but it`s up to you to realize it.

 

If people are bound by oath not to talk about their experiences then how are there so many books on it? Explaining their experiences? Magic and mystery in Tibet by alexandra david-neel for example. Unfortunately none of them go into detail on the whys and hows of the system, simply that they do it and what the results are.

 

Beats me, I wouldn`t do it. Unless if I`d master something, then it might be a different story.

[mantis]

He has to receive it again in this life.

 

i'd like to know who stated this, rofl rofl

[Pero]

Hey Pero,

 

What do you make of the Buddha saying that reliance on rituals and practices is actually a fetter to enlightenment? I read all this about needing transmission, and I tend to think this is all about keeping the masters in power. Look at Trungpa's student who received the transmission and went around having unprotected sex with his students. What does lineage mean if the masters can't be trusted?

 

What is the context? Buddha did practices too.

But, what is not a fetter to enlightenment?

 

Receiving transmission does not make you a saint. It`s not like when you receive transmission, the lineage governs your actions or something.

Also, people shouldn`t forget their common sense. It`s said that the teacher should be thoroughly examined before starting to follow him.

[mantis]

it seems to me you're heavily fixiated on teachers and lineage and all that garbage. if you meditate, even if you just sit there with your eyes closed, hey, guess what; you'll make progress. why? how do you think they made those powerful techniques?

 

since you seem so into arguing i'll throw this at you

 

how did the first enlightened being come into existence? if you have the answer to that i'd like to know who told you or you're just completely speculating some old myth.

[Adam West]

Hi again Jak,

 

If you look on the AYP site, you will see an interesting thread on the Six Yogas, gtummo in paricular. An initiated practitioner seems to participate. He seems to think that it is a long and complex path, with hours of concentration, and not too much results. And quite difficult without a teacher, since they hold back subtle little details. He seems to think Advanced Yoga Practices are the way to go (similar to the Kriya yoga of Yogananda and that linage which has many branches; and the book on pranayama I recommended previously). Do a search on the site if your interested, there are a few discussions about it. Here is a link:

 

http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic.asp?TOP...archTerms=tummo

 

In kind regards,

 

Adam.

[Pero]

i'd like to know who stated this, rofl rofl

 

The thing is, most people don`t remember their past lives. So you can`t know whether you received empowerment or not. Also, in Vajrayana, there are samayas that go with the empowerments. So if you received an empowerment in a previous life and it would hold for all your future lives you would also have samaya for all those lives. But if you don`t remember, then you will inevitably break it. Luckily this isn`t so, you have to retake all empowerments, vows, whatever.

Also, even the Tulkus retake empowerments even though they`re supposed to be reincarnations of masters.

[Pero]

it seems to me you're heavily fixiated on teachers and lineage and all that garbage. if you meditate, even if you just sit there with your eyes closed, hey, guess what; you'll make progress. why? how do you think they made those powerful techniques

 

Ok, so basically you`re calling the practices garbage as well then. Because the practices come from the masters who said the same things.

 

 

how did the first enlightened being come into existence? if you have the answer to that i'd like to know who told you or you're just completely speculating some old myth.

 

It didn`t come into existence at all, because nothing exits.

But anyway, the Primordial Buddha was never deluded. At the "beginning" he got enlightened, sentient beings didn`t. It`s actually pretty complicated. At least it seemed that way to me, but then I didn`t put much thought into it because I`m not that interested in knowing this right now. I have way to little knowledge to explain this.

[Adam West]

 

There are a lot of people who think wu-wei daoism (think dao de jing) and dzogchen have the same source, it isn't unthinkable given the silk road and the constant interaction between the tibetans and the chinese - and the indians for that matter.

 

Could you supply some good sources on the Wu-Wei Daoist tradition and its practices? Both book and internet if possible?

 

I'd appreciate it very much! Many thanks!

 

In kind regards,

 

Adam.

[rex]

They've got something I haven't got and I want it, and I want someone to tell me that I can take it on my own terms.

Good pop psychology.

In retrospect that was a bit harsh - sorry - I momentarily forgot that I was on the taobums spiritual hackers forum and not on the orthodox e-sangha forum.

 

Thats all im asking, an appeal for someone with experience in these matters, not opinions without evidence.

Herein is the difficulty. You're asking if you can utilise practices from a tradition outside their original context. People within the tradition are bound to say no. But the bind is all they can say is that the masters of the living tradition say it is so - reliance on the teachers is sacrosanct. Others may say yes, but divorce the mechanics from the directly Buddhist stuff, or worse, just go the whole hog and ignore the traditions provisos.

 

From reading your posts I seem to remember that you have already been taught some Taoist methods similar to the six yogas? If so, if you're seeking to use this experience, and supplement it with purely the physical mechanics of the first of the six yogas, and were seeking an informed opinion on this then I apologise for sticking my dogmatic oar in. If however you wanted to do the complete six yogas with Buddhist visualisation and stuff outside the tradition, then I see it as important to give the official view of the tradition based, arguably, on the experience of the lineage.

 

Pero seems to know a good deal on buddhism, but hasn't given any explanations yet, only "nope you can't do it". Excuse me if I don't take one persons word on it without reason.

Would you like me to quote from some Tibetan masters experienced in these matters? These quotes don't really go into the esoteric energetics so may easily be dismissed as dogmatic propaganda from those outside the tradition.

 

... none of them go into detail on the whys and hows of the system, simply that they do it and what the results are.

Again I sympathize. That's because an integral part of the methodology involves a sacred bond - the samaya connection - between the teacher and the mandala of the deity that one has entered. Edited November 2, 2007 by rex

[thelerner]

Did I mention my system gives credit for previous life purchases? If I find you've purchased it during your last life, I refund 50%! This is also good for your future lives(except its a 25% discount, due to time value of money.)

 

 

 

On a more serious note. As you see lots of paths. Find one w/ heart and practice earnestly.

 

 

Michael

[Jakara]

Handed on a silver platter? Do they exist anymore? Forget the teachings I want a silver platter.

I don't want to bore anyone with the whole "this is my story" thing, but the long and short of it is, i put a lot of research in and a lot of effort in. I thought wow a forum, maybe someone has an answer that will save me doing more research, but it isn't the case and im sorry I asked.

 

Adam, most of what I learned on Wu-Wei Daoism I learned from a teacher, but there are good texts out there. The basis is that Daoism can be thought of as a combination of three ways; Ritual, Alchemy and Meditation. That might seem obvious but the schools tend to focus more on one way than the other. The shamans and priests are almost purely ritualistic, the hermits and heroes tend to go for alchemy and then there's the wu-wei practitioners. They practice pure non-dualistic meditation. They have no ritual asides from meditation, the main text is the Dao De Jing and they use alchemy only to further the non-dualistic meditation.

 

The wu-wei practitioners are always in the "here and now", so much that they fill any role that is required of them; priest, shaman, healer. But they do it without becoming entranced by the role, they are still wu-wei daoists. There are many stories of these types of people who've spend most of their lives in caves only to come down to a local village every now and then and teach the priests on what they've learnt and heal the sick. They are also able to perform rituals along side the other priests even though they have had no training.

 

Anyway, good books are the Dao de jing, Zhaung zi, Lieh zi, Zen mind beginners mind, Being right here, Meditation now or never. The last three aren't written by daoists, I think they are Zen and Dzogchen, but the meanings and practices are the same.

 

Ill have to look for some links and get back to you for internet stuff.

[Adam West]

Ill have to look for some links and get back to you for internet stuff.

 

Thanks mate!

 

In kind regards,

 

Adam.

[lockpaw]

What is the context? Buddha did practices too.

But, what is not a fetter to enlightenment?

 

Not a fetter. One of the TEN FETTERS. Check it out: Ten Fetters Relying on rites and rituals instead of oneself.

 

From what you Tibetans call the "Hinayana." Do they still teach Hinayana or do they jump right to Mahayana?

[Pero]

Not a fetter. One of the TEN FETTERS. Check it out: Ten Fetters Relying on rites and rituals instead of oneself.

 

From what you Tibetans call the "Hinayana." Do they still teach Hinayana or do they jump right to Mahayana?

 

I don`t think that with "adherence to wrongful rites, rituals and ceremonies" Buddha meant Tantric (Buddhist) practices. He taught Tantra as well (to some king or something, I forgot).

I`m not Tibetan.

 

Handed on a silver platter? Do they exist anymore? Forget the teachings I want a silver platter.

I don't want to bore anyone with the whole "this is my story" thing, but the long and short of it is, i put a lot of research in and a lot of effort in. I thought wow a forum, maybe someone has an answer that will save me doing more research, but it isn't the case and im sorry I asked.

 

I`m sorry I couldn`t give you the answer you wanted.

I wish you all the best on your journey.

[rex]

Not a fetter. One of the TEN FETTERS. Check it out: Ten Fetters Relying on rites and rituals instead of oneself.

The Tibetans recognise that rites in themselves are nothing if they do not involve personal engagement so the Four Opponent Powers are built into the liturgies of purification.

 

From what you Tibetans call the "Hinayana." Do they still teach Hinayana or do they jump right to Mahayana?

"Hinayana" just one of the 18 schools that focused on individual liberation. Mahayana focus is on universal liberation. The Tibetans are primarily Mahayana though Mahayana is built on the indispensable foundations of the Hinayana. The entire three yana system is integrated into the Tibetan traditions and is summed up as follows:

 

Hinayana: do not harm

Mahayana: cultivate a wealth of virtue

Vajrayana: train and tame the mind