a call to arms for all people practicing Asian health arts

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

Recently in Canada there has been a flurry of media accusations of cultural appropriation surrounding the Yoga world.   A popular free class at an Ottowa university was recently cancelled because a student complained that Indian culture was being misrepresented in the class, which was aimed at helping disabled students find themselves in exercise.

 

This is an extremely important issue for any of us who study or teach Asian healing arts such as Daoism.   It is important to recognize that the good that our arts do for the world is bigger than any small political movement or affiliation.   It is very important right now for all of us to consider how to combat potential politicized attacks against all of our diverse communities, and how to present a good face in an impending culture war.

 

I want to also point out a few important things:

The practices of modern Assana based Yoga are deeply influenced by Danish exercises from the 1800s called "primitive exercise," and as such are not purely Indian in origin.   There seems also to be some historical relationship with another program called Harmonial exercise, which was an American women's meditative stretching practice popular in the 1800s.

Much as is the case with empty handed martial arts practice in China, the genuine emergence of a well organized nationalist yogic exercise in India did not happen until the 20th century.

We need to make ourselves more and more aware of these things and do our best to present the history of our arts as multi cultural, rather than having one finalized and decided source which has never changed throughout human history.

 

Just some thoughts and I hope others will chime in.

[thelerner]

Religious fundamentalists have always attacked eastern studies but this time its hyper political correctness!?  Unless it gains momentum I'm thinking the controversy actually gains eastern arts more publicity because its so silly. 

Course I've been wrong before. 

[Brian]

Religious fundamentalists have always attacked eastern studies but this time its hyper political correctness!? Unless it gains momentum I'm thinking the controversy actually gains eastern arts more publicity because its so silly.

Course I've been wrong before.

The last 50 years or so suggest you might be wrong, unfortunately.

[thelerner]

I don't know.  40 years ago, all martial arts were Karate..  In college I took TaeKwonDo and the sign said, Karate because that was the name martial arts went by.  Now there's many styles, though its still a hard business to succeed in.  Yoga used to be exotic, now there's a dozen places in my suburb and they're not Yoga, they're differentiated by there various styles.  

 

Eastern arts are being taught, (& watered down) at every community and health club.  Thankfully there are also more hardcore independents.  All in all I'd say we're doing better over the years.  Even with the watering down. 

[Aetherous]

I'm just glad that people are calling this out as totally ridiculous.

[Brian]

I don't know. 40 years ago, all martial arts were Karate.. In college I took TaeKwonDo and the sign said, Karate because that was the name martial arts went by. Now there's many styles, though its still a hard business to succeed in. Yoga used to be exotic, now there's a dozen places in my suburb and they're not Yoga, they're differentiated by there various styles.

 

Eastern arts are being taught, (& watered down) at every community and health club. Thankfully there are also more hardcore independents. All in all I'd say we're doing better over the years. Even with the watering down.

I was thinking about hypersensitivity and political-correctness run amok rather than the proliferation of watered-down energetic arts.

[3bob]

various forms of yoga (often Hatha yoga) was not meant to be taken out of context from its spiritual foundation that goes hand in hand with it... the most simple and basic stretches may not get one into difficulties but when other more advanced methods are used without its spiritual foundation or true teachers then problems can and do happen.

[gendao]

Religious fundamentalists have always attacked eastern studies but this time its hyper political correctness!? Unless it gains momentum I'm thinking the controversy actually gains eastern arts more publicity because its so silly.

Well, they both impose the same effect - largely extracting just the basic calisthenic exercises out from their holistic spiritual context/background - yet still calling it "yoga." This "PC version" makes it more "palatable" to Christians and the general American public. But this watered-down approach is what some "hyper-PC" at the University Of Ottawa objected to.

 

I think both are debatable positions, personally. Maybe learning some yoga is better than nothing at all for some. But learning authentic yoga is definitely better than learning commercial gym yoga for others... Maybe better labeling can help the consumer make more informed choices and help preserve the unadulterated authentic traditions for posterity?

Edited November 27, 2015 by gendao

[wilfred]

it's funny how the new 'religious fundamentalists' are the far liberal left. i think the majority of these people are suffering mental illness in the way they project their own insecurities and champion the 'oppressed' in order to take the moral high-ground over other people. they are strongly against free-speech and closer to fascist in the way they operate than any traditional notions of liberalism.

[vonkrankenhaus]

It is true of modern yoga that it is not really older than the 1930s.

 

Krishnamacharya created a synthesis of yoga postures from theosophical society publications combined with british and indian military calisthenics. He had returned from tibet in search of "real yoga", probably encountering some tummo practitioners there. He taught Pattabhi Jois, Iyengar, etc.

 

So this "Indian Yoga" "tradition" is a kind of appropriation, as most modern yoga today has come from this.

 

That is what these people have found out who are protesting this cultural appropriation.

 

It is NOT an issue of modern canadians not liking "indian culture".

 

It is an issue wherein people now realize they are learning "fake" yoga that isn't really from any ancient tradition.

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[vonkrankenhaus]

Re:

-----

"Maybe learning some yoga is better than nothing at all for some. But learning authentic yoga is definitely better than learning commercial gym yoga for others... Maybe better labeling can help the consumer make more informed choices and help preserve the unadulterated authentic traditions for posterity?"

-----

 

Where would you learn "authentic yoga" today?

 

Krishnamacharya could not find it in India around the turn of the last century.

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[3bob]

you would learn authentic yoga from an authentic guru... who may not be very accessible to millions of people for certain reasons, with an obvious one being logistical factors.  (also it is not a questionable beginners automatic right to get a great and qualified teacher which do EXIST, but who don't pop up on every street corner in California or elsewhere - btw, such doesn't  happen with other forms of discipline so why would anyone expect different with spiritual discipline's?

Edited November 27, 2015 by 3bob

[liminal_luke]

Some people like their liquor neat, other´s prefer it watered down. But both groups will get drunk eventually if they drink enough. Where there´s more watered down yoga, you´ll also find more pure yoga. And no one culture has a monopoly on the divine.

 

Liminal

[Michael Sternbach]

The Hatha Yoga I was taught by an advanced Indian practitioner was not much different from what, to my knowledge, is commonly practised in the West. There are also books written by Indian authors along the same lines. Of course, there will be Western instructors tailoring the original material toward specific ends (Yoga for pregnant women etc) or synthesizing it with other ideas (i.e. Pilates). I don't think that's a problem - at least as long as practitioners understand what's going on.

[vonkrankenhaus]

Re:

-----

"you would learn authentic yoga from an authentic guru.."

-----

 

Where would this "guru" have learned "authentic yoga" if Krishnamacharya could not find any in India by the turn of the last century?

 

What would be an example of "authentic yoga" to you?

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[3bob]

one would have to do a fair amount of research and see what they think about various eye witness accounts, (of various well recognized teachers) then they would have to go out on their own and try to verify such research regardless of what a Krishna-whoever said whatever whenever...  or one could just roll over without getting their own proofs

Edited November 28, 2015 by 3bob

[MooNiNite]

Most people don't understand yoga well enough to represent it properly, it is even worse in India. The commercial yoga scene that is contagiously widespread in India (primarily focused to profit off tourists) is one of the most saturated and least authentic practices of yoga. Go there for 2 weeks and all of a sudden you are a certified yoga instructor master. Pay more money and maybe you will be certified enlightened. 

[Astral Monk]

Clinging to 'culture' is a sign of sickness. Defending 'culture' is a practice in absurdity.

 

Real beneficial practices are beneficial for all human beings in virtue of them being human. What does 'culture' have to do with it?

 

A good example cones from the New Testament, when the disciples came to Jesus whining about some guy who was going around healing the sick and casting out devils, a la Jesus. He said 'he who is not against us is with us'. Meaning that once you get on the right track the 'origin' of that track becomes meaningless or unimportant--the results are what matter not laying claim to something like intellectual property.

 

If it works it works universally and the origin, while a historical curiousity, cannot lay claim to ownership.

 

Theres no doubt that ppl benefit from modern yoga. So much the better if it is a modern invention we can relate to that goes beyond cultural limitations. But, we need to understand this, and not simply blend traditions into a mishmash; that is, making spurious connections only to enhance the public profile and not to deeply inform the practice by placing it within a historical context.

 

8)

[Taomeow]

I see that some of you would like to prohibit all objections from anyone who is promptly served instant noodles and a coke after having ordered champagne and caviar.  What's the difference, those voices admonish.  Gobble it up and be done with it -- and don't even think of complaining.  

 

It's not about snobbery, folks.  It's about health.  Don't know the situation with yoga, but non-authentic taiji is awful.  According to Wong Kiew Kit, 85% of Westerners who start it drop out because of knee problems they get out of it before they have a chance to get anything else. 

 

Another consideration is the proliferation of the purported "non-marial" taiji, "for health"-- the problem being that learning taiji while leaving out the actual -- martial -- meaning of each move is like learning a musical instrument while wearing ear plugs so that you can never hear the music you are producing. 

 

And yet another -- perhaps the least important of the aggravations non-authentic non-art entails, but I'll mention it anyway.  All those beefed-up hard MA dudes keep spreading the legend of taiji's martial inefficiency -- partially because of self-aggrandizing delusions, but partially because non-authentic taiji is indeed inefficient.  Nevermind that they immediately change their mind after the very first encounter with an authentic master, in one hundred percent of cases.  Most of them will never meet such master though, and the annoying misconception lives on.

 

The problem is not limited to the West anymore.  Anything that starts gaining commercial success gets bastardized -- everywhere. 

 

Instant noodles anyone?..

[3bob]

important points made by Taomeow, 

 

without a certain amount of positive, historic and respected culture (because it is human) we could all just exist to serve the bottom line of making an all mighty buck (or money), thus not bother with or destroy anything else that gets in the way of that and us.  (one example bulldoze mother nature till all that is left is a concrete and steel jungle of man-made cages)

Edited November 28, 2015 by 3bob

[vonkrankenhaus]

Re:

-----

"one would have to do a fair amount of research and see what they think about various eye witness accounts, (of various well recognized teachers) then they would have to go out on their own and try to verify such research regardless of what a Krishna-whoever said whatever whenever...  or one could just roll over without getting their own proofs"

-----

 

So, you don't know.

 

"Recognized teachers" would be whom?

 

Iyengar? Patabhi Jois? - they learned from "Krishna-whoever"!!!

 

Did you "just roll over" without getting your own proofs?

 

Not trying to be antagonistic here in any way.

 

Just pointing out that people don't know what "authentic" yoga is, but they someohow imagine it is out there and "someone" must know.

 

Like they think about "scientific studies" that prove various medical treatments are safe or effective - most of the time no such studies actually exist, but people "believe" (imagine) they do.

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[Brian]

I think every beginning math class should include multivariate vector calculus or the class shouldn't be allowed. Arithmetic is weak sauce and is an insult to real mathematics.

[3bob]

VK, I was very fortunate and found or was given contact with a true guru,  thus that is something which is not a maybe or of speculation for me... and of course what I say can only be secondary hear-say or a passing curiosity for anyone else.  That is the way it goes for all of us until we experience and know for our own selves.  (regardless of even the most well recognized written sources of information which are still not our's first hand.  (although such work is meant to lend a hand or give pointers)

[3bob]

I recently took trig in my old age and that was kinda fun, why didn't they teach that in first grade?

 

(I could have used that when we started playing dodge ball in later grades)

Edited November 28, 2015 by 3bob

[Brian]

I recently took trig in my old age and that was kinda fun, why didn't they teach that in first grade?

 

(I could have used that when we started playing dodge ball in later grades)

This is off-topic but...

 

Western society largely produces educators, particularly for early childhood, who are nurturing, touchy-feely people. This is not a bad thing but it has the unfortunate side-effect of most students' early exposure to math (beyond counting and number recognition, which often happens at home) coming from authority figures who don't understand math (too often not even at the grade-levels they are teaching), who don't like math, and who instill in their students the belief that math is hard and is of no value in "the real world" and is just something to be suffered through.