Beyond the spiritual heart

[3bob]

flitting back and forth or between Buddhism and Hinduism (as if certain things mean the same) may be fine for you TI but I'd say its not really kosher per either tradition, although if you spelled it out each time you were switching it would help the unsuspecting understand such differences...

[Tibetan_Ice]

flitting back and forth or between Buddhism and Hinduism (as if certain things mean the same) may be fine for you TI but I'd say its not really kosher per either tradition, although if you spelled it out each time you were switching it would help the unsuspecting understand such differences...

Bob, if you want to maintain your prejudices and divisiveness, that is your perogative.

I find your point of view very narrow and limiting. I've also noticed that you seem to take every opportunity to pick at Buddhism.

Instead trying to support your belief system by reducing others, why don't you show more confidence in your chosen path(s) ?

[dawei]

Spend 50 years in meditation achieving pure YIN and wither and die with a Golden Body...

 

Or, find Light and spend 50 years helping humanity...

 

Or ignore these paths and follow where your lead.

 

In the end: Where are you lead and what leads you? 

 

how is this on-topic?

 

Spiritual-heart... where is it being lead and by what

[Tibetan_Ice]

I wouldn't be a 100% sure about Swami Muktananda... there is some stuff on the web where some of his students had some revealing accounts about hin'

Yes, Muktananda was no saint, but he did have lineage, and he taught Mark Griffin (and about the Blue Pearl).

 

Mark Griffin is one powerful guru, as attested to from a member on this forum.

 

And looky kooky, Mark was trained in both Hinduism and Buddhism:

From Spiritual Power, http://www.amazon.com/Spiritual-Power-Essential-Training-Book-ebook/dp/B005IDV3WS

 

While a young man, Mark’s studies in art and music brought him to the San Francisco Bay area. There in 1976 he met his Guru, Baba Muktananda. After years of full-time immersion in the study of meditation, Mark encountered a milestone of extreme spiritual significance –entrance into the advanced state of consciousness known as Nirvikalpa Samadhi. After Muktananda died, Mark continued to study with the great teachers of the Kagyu tradition, Kalu Rinpoche and Chogyam Trungpa, who supported the maturing and stabilizing of his abilities.

 

In 1989, after attracting several interested students, Mark began to teach meditation. He and his students relocated to Los Angeles and started the Hard Light Center of Awakening, an association dedicated to the art and science of awareness of the Self.

 

When Mark Griffin met Baba Muktananda he immediately realized that Baba was his Guru, his true teacher. Baba’s Guru was the great saint of India, Bhagawan Nityananda of Ganeshpuri. It is with the blessings of these remarkable Siddhas that Mark carries on his inspiring teachings.

 

 

So I guess you could say you are directing your flitting and kosher comments to him too. Edited December 7, 2015 by Tibetan_Ice

[3bob]

I'd say if Mr. Griffin is mixing apples and oranges and openly admits it then that is his particular trip and system... which wouldn't be traditional Buddhism or Hinduism and if either of the traditional ways or a school  gave him a lineage title under such circumstances then it would be false, granted it may be a semi-this or semi-that or quasi-this or quasi-that which if not misrepresented then everyone would know it's of his blend and interpretation... same goes for anybody else doing their own trip.

 

(with a little study anyone should know that Buddhism rejects the Vedic teachings per the historic Buddha, and Hinduism sees Buddhism as non-Vedic per its teachings and teachers)

Edited December 7, 2015 by 3bob

[wilfred]

Spend 50 years in meditation achieving pure YIN and wither and die with a Golden Body...

 

Or, find Light and spend 50 years helping humanity...

 

Or ignore these paths and follow where your lead.

 

In the end: Where are you lead and what leads you? 

 

how is this on-topic?

 

Spiritual-heart... where is it being lead and by what

 

i do sincerely hope that those speculating on the ins and outs of all this stuff are indeed living in alignment with what is being pointed to, are out there doing good in the world. otherwise, it all seems a bit pointless and may never bear any fruit.

[Bindi]

Hi Bindi, in Dzogchen, there are three kinds of rainbow bodies, two are realized upon death but the third, the Great rainbow body, enables the adept to dematerialize at will before death occurs.

 

https://www.facebook.com/notes/dzogchen-khenpo-choga-rinpoche/auspicious-news-my-teacher-lama-karma-attains-rainbow-body/10151794778007773

Thanks for clarifying that T_I. I wrote it out in brief to get a basic understanding of these terms:

 

The small rainbow body

Attaining the small rainbow body is demonstrated when a body shrinks after death. The Dzogchen master’s body shrinks to the size of a cubit or less (in a seated position). This is also known as the Shrunken Rainbow Body.

 

Medium Rainbow Body

Most commonly known as Rainbow Body, the Dzogchen master’s body dissolves as rainbow light of many different shapes, colors, and all different sizes of rainbow spheres, rainbow rays, and rainbow ribbons until the physical body has totally dissolved into rainbow light, leaving nothing behind except some hair and nails. All these rainbow lights can pass through the master’s clothing and through solid walls.

 

Great Rainbow Body

Directly transforming the present body into a luminous Rainbow Body, just like Buddha Shakyamuni in India. The Great rainbow body enables the adept to dematerialize at will before death occurs. Those who attain the Great Rainbow Body eternally retain their present life’s body appearance until all beings become Buddha.

 

Light Body

This is when the body transforms into light and disappears after death. This can happen either gradually or instantaneously.

 

Atomless Body

If a body after death continues to shrink and totally disappears, dissolving into emptiness, this is categorised as an atomless body.

 

I'll have to research the Great Rainbow Body for more information on similarities to the golden embryo of Neidan, or the golden body, svar∫aßarîra, the body made of golden light described in 'Merging with Siva.' One question I have immediately is is there some sort of energy work involved in the Tibetan practices aimed at achievement of the Great Rainbow Body? Because I understand energy work is the basis of Neidan.

Edited December 8, 2015 by Bindi

[Bindi]

I would really double check the resources that says the astral golden body is the same as any of those. You can find a few of them at the spirituality forum.

 

They don't talk about silence or residing or oneness. They talk about there golden bodies and astral travel. Duality.

 

They will help you build yours too.

Tom, can you give a definition of the astral golden body, or a specific reference perhaps.

[Tibetan_Ice]

...

I'll have to research the Great Rainbow Body for more information on similarities to the golden embryo of Neidan, or the golden body, svar∫aßarîra, the body made of golden light described in 'Merging with Siva.' One question I have immediately is is there some sort of energy work involved in the Tibetan practices aimed at achievement of the Great Rainbow Body? Because I understand energy work is the basis of Neidan.

Hi Bindi,

I think all schools that aim at self realization have practices aimed at achieving the Great Rainbow Body, or at least aim on achieving some lesser form of it, in this lifetime or maybe the next(s)..

 

In tantra, I would say The Six Yogas of Naropa. tummo.. Vase breathing..

In Dzogchen, it is trecko and thogal.

In CN Norbu, it is guru yoga.

In Theravada it is "eliminating the obscurations and hinderences through shamatha and vipassana and mindfulness.".

In Most Buddhism, it is in developing relative and absolute Bodhicitta.

 

And then, kriya yoga, Yogananda, Gurudeva, JC (he is still alive and well), Ramana, Dhyanyogi...

 

Any sincere intention or movement of energy towards spiritual insight is a form of energy practice that brings one closer.

 

Any great being is capable of producing a great rainbow body, but that is not to say that every great being is going to or has been witnessed to have done so..

[Jonesboy]

Tom, can you give a definition of the astral golden body, or a specific reference perhaps.

Hi Bindi,

 

No I can't. I have never ran across the term Golden Body in my research of any tradition.

 

I have seen people who are very visual, they have the 3rd eye open. That talk about the Golden Body.

 

I know people who will tell me they have the Golden Body and 12/13 chakra's opened. They can travel through time and all sorts of fun stuff. I get them with 6 chakra's open.

 

Every bit of it and they will admit it is astral what they are doing. Now they still believe they are very advanced and really have achieved those heights.

 

It is about how we spend our daily life. They don't talk about silence or oneness. They have no clue about emptiness or any of the things that really matter.

 

That has been the extent of my research into the Golden Body and what I have found so far. That would include your paper on Merging with Shiva.

 

The term Golden is because that is what people will "SEE". If a person has achieved the Golden/light body one would be able to feel there presence in a very strong way that is beyond seeing. The person would be able to do things outside of the astral as well.

Edited December 8, 2015 by Jonesboy

[Jonesboy]

Hi Bindi,

I think all schools that aim at self realization have practices aimed at achieving the Great Rainbow Body, or at least aim on achieving some lesser form of it, in this lifetime or maybe the next(s)..

 

In tantra, I would say The Six Yogas of Naropa. tummo.. Vase breathing..

In Dzogchen, it is trecko and thogal.

In CN Norbu, it is guru yoga.

In Theravada it is "eliminating the obscurations and hinderences through shamatha and vipassana and mindfulness.".

In Most Buddhism, it is in developing relative and absolute Bodhicitta.

 

And then, kriya yoga, Yogananda, Gurudeva, JC (he is still alive and well), Ramana, Dhyanyogi...

 

Any sincere intention or movement of energy towards spiritual insight is a form of energy practice that brings one closer.

 

Any great being is capable of producing a great rainbow body, but that is not to say that every great being is going to or has been witnessed to have done so..

Hi Ti,

 

I would disagree on that most schools have a path to the rainbow body. Most schools laugh at the idea.

 

In Theravada it is "eliminating the obscurations and hinderences through shamatha and vipassana and mindfulness.".

 

In Most Buddhism, it is in developing relative and absolute Bodhicitta.

 

And then, kriya yoga...

None of these paths lead to a rainbow body... None of these schools even hint at such a thing.

 

Again it is because their are many different paths. Some lead to cessation others to an Arhat, and others to immortals and so forth.

 

Now TI, I know where you got that post from. I am just not sure that in yoga the Anandamaya kosha is the same thing as the Vajra body.

 

All the best,

 

Tom

Edited December 8, 2015 by Jonesboy

[Bindi]

Hi Bindi,

 

No I can't. I have never ran across the term Golden Body in my research of any tradition.

 

I have seen people who are very visual, they have the 3rd eye open. That talk about the Golden Body.

 

I know people who will tell me they have the Golden Body and 12/13 chakra's opened. They can travel through time and all sorts of fun stuff. I get them with 6 chakra's open.

 

Every bit of it and they will admit it is astral what they are doing. Now they still believe they are very advanced and really have achieved those heights.

 

It is about how we spend our daily life. They don't talk about silence or oneness. They have no clue about emptiness or any of the things that really matter.

 

That has been the extent of my research into the Golden Body and what I have found so far. That would include your paper on Merging with Shiva.

 

The term Golden is because that is what people will "SEE". If a person has achieved the Golden/light body one would be able to feel there presence in a very strong way that is beyond seeing. The person would be able to do things outside of the astral as well.

 

I think I should clarify, I was actually referring to Neidan's golden embryo in the post that you replied to previously, though I did mistakenly say golden body not golden embryo. I wonder if you would still class this as astral anyway, maybe the mix up is irrelevant to you.

 

I see you do have a sense though of a 'light body' as a golden body, but only if you can't see it? You can only feel the presence of a true light/golden body?

 

BTW, Are you saying you have 6 chakras open? And how are you going with your rainbow body?

Edited December 8, 2015 by Bindi

[Jonesboy]

 

I think I should clarify, I was actually referring to Neidan's golden embryo in the post that you replied to previously, though I did mistakenly say golden body not golden embryo. I wonder if you would still class this as astral anyway, maybe the mix up is irrelevant to you.

 

I see you do have a sense though of a 'light body' as a golden body, but only if you can't see it? You can only feel the presence of a true light/golden body?

 

BTW, Are you saying you have 6 chakras open? And how are you going with your rainbow body?

Sorry for the confusion on the embryo and the body.

 

I get nothing golden.. People who can see in the astral might see a golden body. I don't see anyone with any type of aura or body around them

 

No I am not saying I have 6 chakras open. I was saying that most people who say they have achieved the "Golden Body" that I know of are seeing astral and have not achieved a real light body.

 

I am doing well Bindi.

 

Thank you for asking.

[Bindi]

Sorry for the confusion on the embryo and the body.

 

I get nothing golden.. People who can see in the astral might see a golden body. I don't see anyone with any type of aura or body around them

 

No I am not saying I have 6 chakras open. I was saying that most people who say they have achieved the "Golden Body" that I know of are seeing astral and have not achieved a real light body.

 

I am doing well Bindi.

 

Thank you for asking.

 

Well good to hear you're doing well. Have you achieved the small, medium or great Rainbow body yet, or are you still working on it? Do you do the Dharma practice of Dzogchen trekchö and thögal that the Tibetans say is necessary to attain the Rainbow body?

 

I did have a look at that other site you mentioned, and I found this from you. I thought by saying it has been your experience, that you must have opened all your chakras actually.

 

 

 

Hi Lycan,

 

Excellent question!

 

This does get a little tricky but it is true and has been my experience.

 

When you open all of the chakras they form a unified field.. That is how one achieves the light body.. Others name it the Vajra body or one has realized the Sambhogakaya

 

The sambhogakaya allows for one to realize ones higher state. A male or female form that overlays their physical body. This is the fruition for example of Mahayana Buddhism.

[Jonesboy]

 

Well good to hear you're doing well. Have you achieved the small, medium or great Rainbow body yet, or are you still working on it? Do you do the Dharma practice of Dzogchen trekchö and thögal that the Tibetans say is necessary to attain the Rainbow body?

 

I did have a look at that other site you mentioned, and I found this from you. I thought by saying it has been your experience, that you must have opened all your chakras actually.

 

 

From my understanding the Rainbow body is what one achieves at death. Not dead so I am not working on it

 

No I don't do Dzogchen trekchö and thögal. I don't do any of those type of energy practices anymore.

 

Yes Bindi,

 

That is what Jeff and I have been talking about for awhile now. Once you open the main 7 up they unify and create the light body.

 

Every single person who has achieved this that I know of. Experiences this as a mental and physiological experience. Every single person has also developed siddhis from becoming light. Which is why I say that if you think you have achieved light but are still stuck in the local mind and unable to help send energy to others.

 

Well.. you tell me.

[Bindi]

From my understanding the Rainbow body is what one achieves at death. Not dead so I am not working on it

 

No I don't do Dzogchen trekchö and thögal. I don't do any of those type of energy practices anymore.

 

Yes Bindi,

 

That is what Jeff and I have been talking about for awhile now. Once you open the main 7 up they unify and create the light body.

 

Every single person who has achieved this that I know of. Experiences this as a mental and physiological experience. Every single person has also developed siddhis from becoming light. Which is why I say that if you think you have achieved light but are still stuck in the local mind and unable to help send energy to others.

 

Well.. you tell me.

 

T_I stated explicitly that if you achieve the great rainbow body you can directly transform the present body into a luminous Rainbow Body. The Great rainbow body enables you to dematerialize at will before death occurs. So you could achieve it while still alive.

 

But when you say it has been your experience, does this mean you have opened the main 7 chakras up and created the light body?

 

Do you know a lot of people who have opened up all 7 chakras?

 

What are the siddhis you have developed?

[Jonesboy]

 

T_I stated explicitly that if you achieve the great rainbow body you can directly transform the present body into a luminous Rainbow Body. The Great rainbow body enables you to dematerialize at will before death occurs. So you could achieve it while still alive.

 

But when you say it has been your experience, does this mean you have opened the main 7 chakras up and created the light body?

 

Do you know a lot of people who have opened up all 7 chakras?

 

What are the siddhis you have developed?

I really don't know about the Great Rainbow Body.

But when you say it has been your experience, does this mean you have opened the main 7 chakras up and created the light body?

Yes I have opened all 7 chakras.

Do you know a lot of people who have opened up all 7 chakras?

I know of quite a few people who have achieved the light body.

What are the siddhis you have developed?

Forgive me for not going into detail. Many of the things that Jeff has demonstrated in Chat I and others are also able to do. I have also assisted people in many of the same ways in chat here and at LU.

 

I have said before, I am always willing to share presence and help where I can.

[Bindi]

I really don't know about the Great Rainbow Body.

 

Yes I have opened all 7 chakras.

 

I know of quite a few people who have achieved the light body.

 

Forgive me for not going into detail. Many of the things that Jeff has demonstrated in Chat I and others are also able to do. I have also assisted people in many of the same ways in chat here and at LU.

 

I have said before, I am always willing to share presence and help where I can.

And yet a few short months ago you were telling people on Spiritual forum you had achieved the rainbow body. Has your knowledge level gone down since then?

 

24-09-2015, 01:06 AM

 

Hi 7L,

 

...

 

What I have been talking about in all honesty is what it is like once one opens all chakras and have achieved the Rainbow body. What the energy feels like then.

 

...

7 open chakras, truly incredible. And yet not a single vision from your open third eye. Bad luck there I'd say.

[Jetsun]

From my understanding the Rainbow body is what one achieves at death. Not dead so I am not working on it

 

No I don't do Dzogchen trekchö and thögal. I don't do any of those type of energy practices anymore.

 

Yes Bindi,

 

That is what Jeff and I have been talking about for awhile now. Once you open the main 7 up they unify and create the light body.

 

Every single person who has achieved this that I know of. Experiences this as a mental and physiological experience. Every single person has also developed siddhis from becoming light. Which is why I say that if you think you have achieved light but are still stuck in the local mind and unable to help send energy to others.

 

Well.. you tell me.

 

Is this light body from a specific tradition or something you have stumbled upon? 

 

Do you see the light body as anything to do with "awakening" in the way that people on Batgap and people like Ramana describe it? 

[Jonesboy]

And yet a few short months ago you were telling people on Spiritual forum you had achieved the rainbow body. Has your knowledge level gone down since then?

7 open chakras, truly incredible. And yet not a single vision from your open third eye. Bad luck there I'd say.

I never said I don't have visions. I said I don't depend on sight.

 

For instance.. I can try to see how many chakras you have open.. but knowing which is beyond seeing is better and more reliable.

[dwai]

Is this light body from a specific tradition or something you have stumbled upon?

 

Do you see the light body as anything to do with "awakening" in the way that people on Batgap and people like Ramana describe it?

My friend has been practicing atma vichara per advaita tradition for a while now. He doesn't have any energy sensitivity and therefore doesn't understand what I say about increase the energy frequency, refining the qi, Shen etc. yet he seems to be having similar results in terms of understanding etc. Jnana yoga (way of inquiry) and raja yoga (mind body energetic practices) converge at one point. Only thing is for beginners or even intermediate level practitioners it is not evident.

 

I notice lots of folks gravitate towards technical terminology, definitions, more labeling and categorization. However the process IMHO, should be able simplifying, dissolving the labels, definitions etc. yet most of us already know that the dao which can be named is not the real dao, and absolute knowledge is silence...yet somehow we tend to fall into the trap of this definition and that technique. Why not pick one and stick with it? These systems require faith and dedication.

[dawei]

 

I think I should clarify, I was actually referring to Neidan's golden embryo in the post that you replied to previously, though I did mistakenly say golden body not golden embryo. I wonder if you would still class this as astral anyway, maybe the mix up is irrelevant to you.

 

I see you do have a sense though of a 'light body' as a golden body, but only if you can't see it? You can only feel the presence of a true light/golden body?

 

BTW, Are you saying you have 6 chakras open? And how are you going with your rainbow body?

 

I had thought this way, but maybe someone can correct me:

 

That the daoist neidan or alchemy path is essentially one towards pure Yang; the rainbow/golden body path is one towards pure Yin.   

 

In this sense, I would think that those who tend to follow daoist methods would not be trying to achieve the rainbow/golden body as the other traditions relate.

 

So not sure it is easy to compare them.

[dawei]

7 open chakras, truly incredible. And yet not a single vision from your open third eye. Bad luck there I'd say.

 

I think the meaning is, open to some degree. 

 

A third eye vision is just that.  It is not a vision (or the kind of visions) related to Light level issues which I think Tom is focusing on.

[Jonesboy]

Is this light body from a specific tradition or something you have stumbled upon? 

 

Do you see the light body as anything to do with "awakening" in the way that people on Batgap and people like Ramana describe it? 

Hi Jetsun,

 

One day I was surfing the web and the next thing I know I found my guru. It is all done by the grace of the guru. Maybe to make everyone happy I will just call him my friend

 

As far as any specific tradition. I have found some traditions do talk about it but that is it. It is very hard to find real good information about the light body and what it is like within any tradition. Personally I have found Dzogchen to be accurate as to the spiritual development one will experience.

 

I would not associate achieving the light body with "awakening" if awakening is the big enlightenment. Some would say that The Witness is an awakening so I am not sure of the term being used. With that being said. I did not experience Rigpa and all that on day one of going light.

 

If I remember correctly the first thing I noticed going light was that energy was flowing through me all day long. I could feel the obstructions within me and feel them being removed. I could feel when someone was looking at me and I could send energy to people. I could quite a mind or do shaktipat.

 

Most of all right from the start, emotions and issues were easier to let go of. It was like the light that was shining through me now and I was able to help me let go of my emotional upsets.

 

That is my experience. I know others who have experienced oneness, emptiness can feel others emotions and a whole bunch of things upon going light.

 

The going light and awakening is a tough question. You can see that I didn't have the big one that everyone talks about when I went light. I was also still next to the guru. Still being pulled along.

 

I have been told that if you were to go out on your own after going light. One would stabilize and be the classic enlightened dude.

 

So yes and no...

[C T]

Hi Jetsun,

 

One day I was surfing the web and the next thing I know I found my guru. It is all done by the grace of the guru. Maybe to make everyone happy I will just call him my friend

 

As far as any specific tradition. I have found some traditions do talk about it but that is it. It is very hard to find real good information about the light body and what it is like within any tradition. Personally I have found Dzogchen to be accurate as to the spiritual development one will experience.

 

I would not associate achieving the light body with "awakening" if awakening is the big enlightenment. Some would say that The Witness is an awakening so I am not sure of the term being used. With that being said. I did not experience Rigpa and all that on day one of going light.

 

If I remember correctly the first thing I noticed going light was that energy was flowing through me all day long. I could feel the obstructions within me and feel them being removed. I could feel when someone was looking at me and I could send energy to people. I could quite a mind or do shaktipat.

 

Most of all right from the start, emotions and issues were easier to let go of. It was like the light that was shining through me now and I was able to help me let go of my emotional upsets.

 

That is my experience. I know others who have experienced oneness, emptiness can feel others emotions and a whole bunch of things upon going light.

 

The going light and awakening is a tough question. You can see that I didn't have the big one that everyone talks about when I went light. I was also still next to the guru. Still being pulled along.

 

I have been told that if you were to go out on your own after going light. One would stabilize and be the classic enlightened dude.

 

So yes and no...

This all has nothing whatsoever related to the authentic practice of Dzogchen. 

 

Sorry. 

 

Just as one example, in Dzogchen, there is never a need to 'let go of emotional upsets'. 

 

One simply go into that, whatever that upsets, or anything resembling an arising of something, good or bad, and directly, instantaneously, and effortlessly, liberate whatever it is that arises within the range of the mind-body field. 

 

The training of this, or the process of training in this effortless seeing, is trekcho. It transcends even the slightest experiential trips one may be susceptible to. How its done one has to first engage with an authentic lineage. 

 

When the training has been exhaustive (like, for example, after completing multiple 3 year retreats) then the next phase of Thogal is introduced by one's root teacher, and gradually, with the lineage blessing through the guru, the habituation of lhag tong effectively takes over by suffusing one's being with perpetual clarity.  

 

There is no other way of approaching it as far as authentic Dzogchen practice is concerned. 

 

@ Jonesboy - Unless you can verify your past participation in long term Dzogchen retreats before, it will be unwise to speak as if you know what Dzogchen entails, and therefore out of respect should try to refrain from making references to it, just as i respectfully acknowledge claims of what you say you have achieved here.