Beyond the spiritual heart

[Bindi]

As 3bob has stated, I don't see why there is all the obsession with seeing/knowing things about people like chakras. But, if it is import to you Bindi, I can do it. What do you want to know about your chakra development (or inner channels)?

 

This whole issue came up because I said "the only way to be sure [that Light transmission was not able to be psychically seen] would be to have someone who has authentic subtle sight or a genuinely opened and activated 3rd eye to experience Light transmission, and go from there. Saying it's not perceivable to people who don't have much subtle sight anyway is not really evidence that it is not perceivable to subtle sight per se."

 

The issue for me is you(s) claim a super high light transmission level, so high that it can't even be perceived by the 3rd eye, but this whole claim seems to be unfounded, at least as far as I can ascertain.

[Jeff]

Jeff, there is a difference between imaginative fantasy and true abilities.

 

TI,

 

As many of the members here know, I can make my presence known with the checking (for those with the capacity). Bindi even posts about it in other threads.

 

Best, Jeff

[Jeff]

This whole issue came up because I said "the only way to be sure [that Light transmission was not able to be psychically seen] would be to have someone who has authentic subtle sight or a genuinely opened and activated 3rd eye to experience Light transmission, and go from there. Saying it's not perceivable to people who don't have much subtle sight anyway is not really evidence that it is not perceivable to subtle sight per se." The issue for me is you(s) claim a super high light transmission level, so high that it can't even be perceived by the 3rd eye, but this whole claim seems to be unfounded, at least as far as I can ascertain.

 

I have never claimed that it can't be seen or felt. I have stated many times that if the person does not have the ability to directly percieve at the "light level", they can often get a component/aspect of it as a mind level transmission. Any one who is open to at least the heart chakra will probably feel something, and anyone who is open to the 6th/3rd eye will probably see something. Many members have even posted on that point in the "with any realization" thread.

 

You, at your level, would probably feel some aspect of it at a conscious level, it is just that most of the transmission would be subconscious. Possibly parts of it coming into conscious mind during "vivid dreams".

[Bindi]

But by this reasoning, I wonder how you can claim to have opened your 3rd eye when you don't see anything. Apparently it's now not that it can't be directly perceived, just that no one has actually perceived it. Not even you, who has more opened chakras than you could poke a stick at.

[Jeff]

But by this reasoning, I wonder how you can claim to have opened your 3rd eye when you don't see anything. Apparently it's now not that it can't be directly perceived, just that no one has actually perceived it. Not even you, who has more opened chakras than you could poke a stick at.

 

I dont understand what you are trying to say here. I have never said that no one has actually perceived it.  I have only said that there are relative levels of perception.  The concept is similar to the taoist understanding of increasing refinement of energy.  The greater the persons mental clarity, the more direct the perception.

 

A simple example from the bible was that Moses "saw a burning bush", Jesus was "one with God".  As we have discussed many times, I often describe it as the difference between "seeing" and "being".

[Bindi]

Jeff, it's comments like these that make me think this.

A third eye vision is just that. It is not a vision (or the kind of visions) related to Light level issues which I think Tom is focusing on.

 
 

 Sight is an attachment.

I am not the only one to have experienced this. As one progresses sight becomes less and less. Knowing and feeling becomes more and more. As you progress and become more and more one with things so to is the knowing.
 

You continually state that you yourself are beyond 3rd eye sight, you apparently just jumped the 3rd eye subtle sight stage and went straight for 'being'. 

 

So if this transmission light has been perceived, what was actually perceived?

[Jeff]

Jeff, it's comments like these that make me think this.

 

 

 

You continually state that you yourself are beyond 3rd eye sight, you apparently just jumped the 3rd eye subtle sight stage and went straight for 'being'. 

 

So if this transmission light has been perceived, what was actually perceived?

 

If you are going to say that I continually state something, you could at least post something that I have said (not two other people ).

 

What do you mean by what is perceived?  Trying to define some "thing" or "substance"?

[Bindi]

Jeff, there is a difference between imaginative fantasy and true abilities.

Actually T_I, in my first session with Jeff he told me my 6th chakra was open, which I absolutely disputed at the time because I knew it wasn't. Apparently I've been demoted since then, as at my level today I would probably only feel some of it, and maybe have a "vivid dream".

Edited December 9, 2015 by Bindi

[Bindi]

If you are going to say that I continually state something, you could at least post something that I have said (not two other people ).

 

I'll have to do a search, so not now.

 

 

What do you mean by what is perceived?  Trying to define some "thing" or "substance"?

 

How about we go with whatever the person who actually saw something described it. That'll do.

[dawei]

 But is it possible to then unify these seven partially opened chakras, and create a light body as Tom explicitly states he has done? Some partial sort of light body?

 

To me, this is more like a characteristic of someone who will likely be able to perceive light levels.  

 

I think this is really a fundamental question. Is there really any level of being available to us while we are in embodied form that is not visible to authentic subtle sight? Subtle sight which sees all levels of energy body and all energies flowing through all levels. And is 'transmission Light' really such  a high level as to be beyond any chance of subtle perception?

 

In theory, anyone can perceive it... but if there is too much 'in the way', then this may not be the lifetime it happens in. 

 

The only way to be sure would be to have someone who has authentic subtle sight or a genuinely opened and activated 3rd eye to experience Light transmission, and go from there. Saying it's not perceivable to people who don't have much subtle sight anyway is not really evidence that it is not perceivable to subtle sight per se.

 

Then the challenge is for one and all... 3rd eye open or not.... here you go:

 

One of the Light Folks created a personal universe.   Two other light folks went to visit it and described it as essentially the same as what he created.  

 

Anyone else can try to go there and share their view of it.  

 

This is all the information someone with Light level access needs.   I'm not saying that everyone with Light Level must find it but they have access to find it. 

 

Now the question is whether anyone else has access and can find it.   I personally don't know.  But willing to find out.

[dawei]

You continually state that you yourself are beyond 3rd eye sight, you apparently just jumped the 3rd eye subtle sight stage and went straight for 'being'. 

 

So if this transmission light has been perceived, what was actually perceived?

 

3rd eye is still local perception.

 

There is that little girl who can blindfold herself and still tell you everything going on around her... yes, her third eye is open to the extreme; She doesn't need her own physical eyes in a sense.

 

But can she see past or future?  Other dimensions?  Light and non-light beings?  

 

So what is the 3rd eye really doing for her on a spiritual Level?

[Jeff]

Actually T_I, in my first session with Jeff he told me my 6th chakra was open, which I absolutely disputed at the time because I knew it wasn't. Apparently I've been demoted since then, as at my level today I would probably only feel some of it, and maybe have a "vivid dream".

 

Bindi,

 

You know that is not the way that I described it in the context at the time. As, I have repeatedly stated, there is a difference between conscious and subconscious perception. Also, are you now saying that you did not "notice me" or any energy flow from the contact?

 

Best, Jeff

Edited December 9, 2015 by Jeff

[3bob]

I'd say that trying to follow universal and true dharma's is enough and also noble for us human beings and gives healthy results regardless of the forms it may take under Buddhist, Taoist, Christian, Hindu or in many other ways,   thus all this other stuff if not done under dharma(s) will not be "noble" and result in problems.  

Edited December 9, 2015 by 3bob

[Jeff]

trying to follow dharma is enough and also noble for us human beings, ... whether Buddhist, Taoist or Sanatana dharma or one of the many other forms of dharmic ways,  if all this other stuff isn't done under dharma(s) then problems will result. 

 

Excellent point

 

Or...

 

Matthew 6:33

But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Edited December 9, 2015 by Jeff

[dawei]

Actually T_I, in my first session with Jeff he told me my 6th chakra was open, which I absolutely disputed at the time because I knew it wasn't. Apparently I've been demoted since then, as at my level today I would probably only feel some of it, and maybe have a "vivid dream".

 

@Jeff:  I would assume, but correct me if I'm wrong, that if you say a chakra is open... it does not imply FULLY open, only as opposed to not being closed.  Which is to say, it is open [to some degree and not closed].

 

If you checked someone and their chakra was FULLY opened, would you be inclined to then state it more as, your 6th chakra is fully open or do you still just say it is open?

 

While some folks might not care for the exact level of openness, it seems useful to make some additional explanation.

 

Recently when someone checked on my 3rd eye, he said "2/3 open"... I wanted to ask, "are you sure it's not 5/6 

[Jeff]

@Jeff:  I would assume, but correct me if I'm wrong, that if you say a chakra is open... it does not imply FULLY open, only as opposed to not being closed.  Which is to say, it is open [to some degree and not closed].

 

Correct.  I mean it say that someone is at least beginning to have access to it.  Definitely not a statement of being "fully open" as there is always more stuff to clear (or higher refinement).

[Bindi]

Bindi,

 

You know that is not the way that I described it in the context at the time. As, I have repeatedly stated, there is a difference between conscious and subconscious perception. Also, are you now saying that you did not "notice me" or any energy flow from the contact?

 

Best, Jeff

That is exactly the way you described it, and you kept insisting that I should just go into it despite me repeatedly saying that it wasn't right, I had to follow what I had been told to do in a dream which was to follow the energy down. You had no sense whatsoever of what I needed energetically. Absolutely none. Though my ego would have come out feeling pretty good about itself if I hadn't had the strength to hold on to my truth.

 

I'm not saying I didn't notice the energy, I did notice it.

 

Why no description yet of how someone at light level has described what they see with the 3rd eye during light transmission?

[Bindi]

3rd eye is still local perception.

 

There is that little girl who can blindfold herself and still tell you everything going on around her... yes, her third eye is open to the extreme; She doesn't need her own physical eyes in a sense.

 

But can she see past or future?  Other dimensions?  Light and non-light beings?  

 

So what is the 3rd eye really doing for her on a spiritual Level?

The thing is, what does a fully open and activated 3rd eye ability really look like? More than your example here for sure.

 

My mother sees beings, energy, consciousness, the subtle body including chakras and channels, mind, inside the physical body, she sees subtle 'wind' blowing and feels its temperature, she saw the future energy 'life stories' of both my kids... and she hasn't even got to her 6th chakra yet. One can only imagine what else she might have access to if she did get there.

 

Maybe experiencing her abilities first hand and knowing first hand how incredibly helpful her information is to my path is what makes me so cranky when 3rd eye sight is dismissed as inferior.

Edited December 9, 2015 by Bindi

[Jeff]

That is exactly the way you described it, and you kept insisting that I should just go into it despite me repeatedly saying that it wasn't right, I had to follow what I had been told to do in a dream which was to follow the energy down. You had no sense whatsoever of what I needed energetically. Absolutely none. Though my ego would have come out feeling pretty good about itself if I hadn't had the strength to hold on to my truth.I'm not saying I didn't notice the energy, I did notice it.Why no description yet of how someone at light level has described what they see with the 3rd eye during light transmission?

 

Ok, sounds like we have different memories of the discussion. Rather than a repeat of the "with any realization" thread stuff, I will just back out of this thread now. Good luck with your 3rd eye pursuits.

 

Best wishes to you,

Jeff

[Bindi]

@Jeff:  I would assume, but correct me if I'm wrong, that if you say a chakra is open... it does not imply FULLY open, only as opposed to not being closed.  Which is to say, it is open [to some degree and not closed].

 

If you checked someone and their chakra was FULLY opened, would you be inclined to then state it more as, your 6th chakra is fully open or do you still just say it is open?

 

While some folks might not care for the exact level of openness, it seems useful to make some additional explanation.

 

Recently when someone checked on my 3rd eye, he said "2/3 open"... I wanted to ask, "are you sure it's not 5/6 

I think the exact level of openness is very relevant. But other things are also highly relevant, such as where your consciousness is in relation to the chakra, and if the chakra has been activated by kundalini, and if so in which channel kundalini activated it. To my understanding a chakra may be fully open but still not 'online'. It's a whole integrated system.

[Bindi]

Ok, sounds like we have different memories of the discussion. Rather than a repeat of the "with any realization" thread stuff, I will just back out of this thread now. Good luck with your 3rd eye pursuits. Best wishes to you, Jeff

There was someone else there, it would be interesting to hear what he remembers then.

 

And who even said that I have 3rd eye pursuits? Maybe good luck with my blue pearl pursuits, or my golden embryo pursuits, but 3rd eye pursuits? Really?

 

And still no description of Light transmission from someone with the ability to perceive (see) light at light level. Why not???

[Jonesboy]

Hi Bindi,

 

It is always different and sight isn't what matters.

 

An example for you:

 

A very advanced friend of mine and I were talking and he asked me to take a look at him.

 

He looked like a robed figure from Assassins Greed and in his right hand was a bar of light.

 

He reach out to give me the light and the next thing I know I am him standing on a window ledge overlooking a city. I am standing amazed at what this is and then I notice thoughts but they are not my thoughts.

 

I come out of that vision and my mind is blown with the silence. My entire body is feeling the energy.

 

I now think of a friend and I become that person. Seeing what they are seeing. I walk outside and I feel like as I walk I am one with everything around me.

 

That feeling as strong as it was for me lasted for that day but it started a process or you could say it helped to speed up the clearing away of the dust.

 

My description is not doing the experience justice. A true light transmission feels like lightning is going through you. It is a very powerful blessing.

 

Now Bindi let me ask you this. How important in all this was my buddy who I saw as a game character?

 

 

Ps. My friend was In a tall building sitting by the window overlooking a large city.

 

This was a very powerful transmission. A normal transmission you may see a beach or mountains or people or places or anything to be honest.

 

You begin to realize how your depth or even the person you are working withs depth can affect ones sight. As one progresses you also notice your sight getting less and less as I have said before and so forth.

 

I hope that helps,

 

Tom

[Bindi]

Hi Bindi,

 

It is always different and sight isn't what matters.

 

An example for you:

 

A very advanced friend of mine and I were talking and he asked me to take a look at him.

 

He looked like a robed figure from Assassins Greed and in his right hand was a bar of light.

 

He reach out to give me the light and the next thing I know I am him standing on a window ledge overlooking a city. I am standing amazed at what this is and then I notice thoughts but they are not my thoughts.

 

I come out of that vision and my mind is blown with the silence. My entire body is feeling the energy.

 

I now think of a friend and I become that person. Seeing what they are seeing. I walk outside and I feel like as I walk I am one with everything around me.

 

That feeling as strong as it was for me lasted for that day but it started a process or you could say it helped to speed up the clearing away of the dust.

 

My description is not doing the experience justice. A true light transmission feels like lightning is going through you. It is a very powerful blessing.

 

Now Bindi let me ask you this. How important in all this was my buddy who I saw as a game character?

 

 

Ps. My friend was In a tall building sitting by the window overlooking a large city.

 

This was a very powerful transmission. A normal transmission you may see a beach or mountains or people or places or anything to be honest.

 

You begin to realize how your depth or even the person you are working withs depth can affect ones sight. As one progresses you also notice your sight getting less and less as I have said before and so forth.

 

I hope that helps,

 

Tom

I read that you experienced an illusory vision tinged with reality. Probably a quick jaunt in the astral layer that you are quick to dismiss other peoples visions as, but you don't see the similarities between your vision and unicorns and wings (where size matters), where a robed figure from Assassins Greed with a bar of light in his right hand fits right in.

 

Also you experience a merging of your sense of self with your friends, and the things around you, because you actively cultivate merging. So really no surprise there. You are getting what you want.

And you see value in this.

[Jonesboy]

And yet Bindi I and others are able to do the following:

 

Yoga Sutras of Patanjali: http://www.swamij.com/yoga-sutras-33949.htm

 

3.39 By loosening or letting go of the causes of bondage and attachment, and by following the knowledge of how to go forth into the passages of the mind, there comes the ability to enter into another body.

(bandha karana shaithilyat prachara samvedanat cha chittasya para sharira aveshah)

[Note: In some renditions this is sutra 3.37 or 3.38]

 

bandha = bondage, attachment

karana = cause

shaithilyat = relaxation, letting go, loosening

prachara = passages, means of going forth, moving through

samvedanat = by knowledge of

cha = and

chittasya = of the consciousness of the mind-field

para = another, other

sharira = body

aveshah = entering into

Entering another body: By loosening or letting go of the causes of bondage and attachment, and by following the knowledge of how to go forth into the passages of the mind, there comes the ability to enter into another body. The advanced yogi may use this power to operate through another body in service of others, such as for guiding sincere students of meditation.

 

Because I know there is no difference between you and I. I know there is no seperation between me and a diety like Jesus or chenzirig for example. Because I know there is no seperation between me and you and Jesus I am able to merge others to Divine beings.

 

Jeff, me and other's do this daily. We have demonstrated this here and at our site.

 

Is it beneficial?

 

The following is respectfully quoted from “Dakini Teachings” by Padmasambhava as translated by Erik Pema Kunsang:

 

Lady Tsogyal asked the master: If a master himself has not been conferred empowerments and he gives them to others, will they receive empowerments or not?

 

The master replied: Although you may be appointed by a charlatan to the rank of minister thus entrusted with power, you will only meet with misfortune. Likewise, although you may have an empowerment conferred upon you by a master who himself has not received it, your mind will be ruined. Moreover you will destroy the minds of others and go to the lower realms like cattle yoked together falling into an abyss. Carried away within an iron box with no exits, you will be sent to the bottom of hell.

 

Lady Tsogyal asked the master: Isn’t the offering of a gift when receiving empowerment just something you yourself have invented?

 

The master replied: All the teachings and tantras explain that at this present time when you have obtained the fortune of a human body after being on errant paths for innumerable aeons, you should, free from the three spheres of concepts, offer your body, life, and spouse to the master who shows the path of unexcelled enlightenment.

 

Lady Tsogyal asked the master: How severe is the misdeed of breaking the master’s command?

 

The master replied: The misdeeds of the three levels of existence do not match even a fraction of the evil of breaking the command of your master. Through this you will take rebirth in the Unceasing Vajra Hell and find no liberation.

 

Lady Tsogyal asked the master: How should we regard the master possessing the oral instructions from whom we request teachings?

 

The master replied in verse:

 

You should know that the master is more important

Than the buddhas of a hundred thousand aeons,

Because all the buddhas of the aeons

Appeared through following masters.

There will never be any buddhas

Who have not followed a master.

 

The master is the Buddha, the master is the Dharma.

Likewise the master is also the Sangha.

He is the embodiment of all buddhas.

He is the nature of Vajradhara.

He is the root of the Three Jewels.

 

Keep the command of your vajra master

Without breaking even a fraction of his words.

If you break the command of your vajra master,

You will fall into Unceasing Vajra Hell

From which there will be no chance for liberation.

By serving your master you will receive the blessings.

 

Lady Tsogyal asked the master: Which is more important, the master or the yidam deity?

 

The master replied: Do not regard the master and the yidam as different, because it is the master who introduces the yidam to you. By always venerating the master at the crown of your head you will be blessed and your obstacles will be cleared away. If you regard the master and yidam as being different in quality or importance you are holding misconceptions.

 

Lady Tsogyal asked the master: Why is it important to practice the yidam deity?

 

The master replied: It is essential to practice a yidam deity because through that you will attain siddhis, your obstacles will be removed, you will obtain powers, receive blessings, and give rise to realization. Since all qualities result from practicing the yidam deity, then without the yidam deity you will just be an ordinary person. By practicing the yidam deity you attain the siddhis, so the yidam deity is essential.

 

Lady Tsogyal asked the master: When practicing a yidam deity, how should we meditate and practice in order to attain accomplishment?

 

The master replied: Since means and knowledge are to practice the spontaneously present body, speech and mind through the method of yoga sadhana, they will be accomplished no matter how you carry out the sadhana aspects endowed with body, speech, and mind. They will be accomplished when the sadhana and the recitation are practiced in a sufficient amount.

 

Lady Tsogyal asked the master: How should we approach the sugata yidam deity?

 

The master replied: Realize that you and the yidam deity are not two and that there is no yidam deity apart from yourself. You approach the yidam deity when you realize that your nature is the state of nonarising dharmakaya.

 

Lady Tsogyal asked the master: Which yidam deity is better to practice, a peaceful or wrathful one?

 

The master replied: Since means and knowledge are practicing the spontaneously present body, speech, and mind through the method of yoga sadhana, all the countless sugatas, peaceful and wrathful, chief figures and retinues, manifest in accordance with those to be tamed in whatever way is necessary–as peaceful and wrathful, chief figures and retinues. But as they are all one taste in the state of dharmakaya, each person can practice whichever yidam he feels inclined toward.

 

Lady Tsogyal asked the master: If we practice one yidam deity, will that be the same as practicing all sugatas?

 

The master replied: The body, speech, and mind of all deities are manifested by the three mayas in accordance with the perception of those to be tamed. In fact, no matter how they appear, if you practice one you will be practicing them all. If you accomplish one you will have accomplished them all.

 

Lady Tsogyal asked the master: Is there any fault in practicing one yidam deity and then practicing another?

 

The master replied: Although the sugatas manifest as various kinds of families and forms, out of skillful means to tame beings, they are in actuality inseparable, the state of equality. If you were able to practice all the buddhas with this realization of their inseparability, your merit would be most eminent. But if you were to do so while regarding the yidam deities as having different qualities which should be either accepted or rejected, you would be immeasurably obscured. It is inappropriate to regard the yidams as good or bad, and to accept or reject them. If you do not regard them like that, it will be excellent no matter how you practice.

 

Lady Tsogyal asked the master: Through performing the approach to one tathagata, will we accomplish the mind of all sugatas?

 

The master replied: By practicing with a vast view and remaining in the nature, you will attain stability in a yidam deity. When you complete the recitation, you will accomplish the activities of all the victorious ones without exception by simply commencing them.

 

Lady Tsogyal asked the Master: If one’s view is high, is it permissible to dispense with the yidam deity?

 

The master replied: If you attain confidence in the correct view then that itself is the yidam deity. Do not regard the yidam deity as a form body. Once you realize the nature of dharmakaya you will have accomplished the yidam deity

 

http://www.tibetanbuddhistaltar.org/the-vajra-master-from-dakini-teachings-by-padmasambhava/

Edited December 10, 2015 by Jonesboy

[Jonesboy]

Orgyen Tobgyal Rinpoche explains the importance of the yidam:

 

When we consider all the great masters of the Indian and Tibetan traditions, we find that in every case, their accomplishment came about through their practice of a yidam. They chose a deity and guarded that practice like their very life force, and on the basis of that complete commitment to the path of deity yoga, they practised the stage of generation, the stage of completion, and integrated these arriving at their final realisation of complete accomplishment and enlightenment.

 

But nowadays there are people who say, “Oh, what a lot of bother! Deities and mantra, I hate all that. I’m just going to meditate.” And they sit there, and close their eyes, and that’s what they call practice. They say, “I just want to do effortless meditation.” But as Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche said, “Although there are people like that, I’ve not seen them gaining any sign of attainment.”

 

In one of the texts of Ratna Lingpa’s cycle of Vajrakilaya practice, there is a passage which recounts how on one occasion Yeshe Tsogyal asked Guru Rinpoche about the nature of kyérim practice. “Do we really need a yidam deity?”, she questioned. Guru Rinpoche replied, “If there is no yidam, where is the source of siddhis? Without siddhi, how could there be enlightenment?”

 

In fact, if we look at the great masters of the Indian and Tibetan traditions of Vajrayana practice, we find there is no-one who did not meditate upon a yidam deity.

 

http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Yidam