Beyond the spiritual heart

[dawei]

~~~  ADMIN MESSAGE ~~~

 

I agree with 3Bob... this has been a good thread and at 17 pages it is veering on some likely personal issues.

 

Let's get back to topic.

[Tibetan_Ice]

Hi TI,

 

No need to continue on discussing the point, I realize that you find no value in any of the written words of Jesus. Also, I agree with you that there are infinite worlds and planes.

 

You quoted Daskalos (think his real name is Stylianos Atteshlis) are you a follower of his? Seems significantly different than the Dzogchen practices you have posted on.

 

 

Thanks,

Jeff

Jesus did not write the Bible.

I value my personal relationship with Jesus more than any second hand book.

Jesus is bar none the most powerful being I have ever met.

[3bob]

ok and now that everyone reading knows where you both stand from now on I suggest you message each other in private to further pursue your relationship...

Edited December 13, 2015 by 3bob

[Tibetan_Ice]

ok and now that everyone reading knows where you both stand from now on I suggest you message each other in private to further pursue your relationship...

Don't you have another lite beer to drink?

[3bob]

as a matter of fact I just finished a cold one not to long ago, btw, cheers sounds like you could use it...

[Tibetan_Ice]

as a matter of fact I just finished a cold one not to long ago, btw, cheers sounds like you could use it...

Sorry, I have not partaken in alcohol nor any recreational drugs for over 35 years.

I found that alcohol/drugs is detrimental to spiritual practice.

I guess the difference between you and is that when I come home after a stressful day, I meditate.

[ilumairen]

When I come home after a stressful day, I meditate.

 

I meditate, in part, to remember that the focus of my practice is internal, and to let go of the places where it has become other than this. And boy, do I need that reminder sometimes.

[3bob]

umm, no need for a sorry right?  & no need for a sort of, "holier than thou" comparison either, right?

 

Btw, Jesus ate fish so how un-vegetarian and un-pure of Him according to some people, we could go on and on including with what the historic Buddha ate and what some yogi's or saints sometimes drink...

 

and who said or projected anything about drugs besides you?

 

Holy have a cow dude.

Edited December 13, 2015 by 3bob

[Tibetan_Ice]

I think you are describing something dramatically different than what is being described. Here is a description touching on it by Jesus in the Gospel of Thomas...22. Jesus saw some babies nursing. He said to his disciples, "These nursing babies are like those who enter the (Father's) kingdom." They said to him, "Then shall we enter the (Father's) kingdom as babies?" Jesus said to them, "When you make the two into one, and when you make the inner like the outer and the outer like the inner, and the upper like the lower, and when you make male and female into a single one, so that the male will not be male nor the female be female, when you make eyes in place of an eye, a hand in place of a hand, a foot in place of a foot, an image in place of an image, then you will enter [the kingdom].

 

"The "when you make eyes in place of an eye, a hand in place of a hand, a foot in place of a foot, an image in place of an image, then you will enter [the kingdom]" is describing the point. Additionally, you will see the order is after one has realized that the inner and the outer are the same.

Jeff,

Please clarify.

Are you saying that you and Tom merge your bodies into other persons' bodies, and make your eyes in place of the other person's eye, your hand in place of the other person's hand, your foot in place of the other person's foot, an image in place of an image?

Is that what you think that passage is saying?

[Jeff]

Jeff,

Please clarify.

Are you saying that you and Tom merge your bodies into other persons' bodies, and make your eyes in place of the other person's eye, your hand in place of the other person's hand, your foot in place of the other person's foot, an image in place of an image?

Is that what you think that passage is saying?

 

No, that is definitely not what I am saying.

 

But way before one gets to that section of the passage, one must "make the two into one, and when you make the inner like the outer and the outer like the inner, and the upper like the lower". When the inside and the outside are realized to be the same.

[Apech]

No, that is definitely not what I am saying. But way before one gets to that section of the passage, one must "make the two into one, and when you make the inner like the outer and the outer like the inner, and the upper like the lower". When the inside and the outside are realized to be the same.

 

 

None of this means you merge with anther person - where does that idea come from?

[Tibetan_Ice]

None of this means you merge with anther person - where does that idea come from?

This is what Tom claims and says that this is what Jeff does.. (Bolding is mine)

 

And yet Bindi I and others are able to do the following:

 

Yoga Sutras of Patanjali: http://www.swamij.com/yoga-sutras-33949.htm

 

3.39 By loosening or letting go of the causes of bondage and attachment, and by following the knowledge of how to go forth into the passages of the mind, there comes the ability to enter into another body.

(bandha karana shaithilyat prachara samvedanat cha chittasya para sharira aveshah)

[Note: In some renditions this is sutra 3.37 or 3.38]

 

bandha = bondage, attachment

karana = cause

shaithilyat = relaxation, letting go, loosening

prachara = passages, means of going forth, moving through

samvedanat = by knowledge of

cha = and

chittasya = of the consciousness of the mind-field

para = another, other

sharira = body

aveshah = entering into

Entering another body: By loosening or letting go of the causes of bondage and attachment, and by following the knowledge of how to go forth into the passages of the mind, there comes the ability to enter into another body. The advanced yogi may use this power to operate through another body in service of others, such as for guiding sincere students of meditation.

 

Because I know there is no difference between you and I. I know there is no seperation between me and a diety like Jesus or chenzirig for example. Because I know there is no seperation between me and you and Jesus I am able to merge others to Divine beings.

 

Jeff, me and other's do this daily. We have demonstrated this here and at our site.

 

...

 

Edited December 13, 2015 by Tibetan_Ice

[Jeff]

None of this means you merge with anther person - where does that idea come from?

 

Sorry Apech, is this addressed to me or Or TI? If me, I don't understand what you are asking.

[Jeff]

TI and Apech - This topic has already been discussed earlier in this thread. The practice is somewhat different, but similar to a Yidam practice. Here is the previous post...

 

http://thedaobums.com/topic/39937-beyond-the-spiritual-heart/?p=661344

 

 

This is all getting really silly... I am off for a beer. But, it is an IPA for me, not a fan of light beer.

Edited December 13, 2015 by Jeff

[Tibetan_Ice]

TI and Apech - This topic has already been discussed earlier in this thread. The practice is somewhat different, but similar to a Yidam practice. Here is the previous post...

 

http://thedaobums.com/topic/39937-beyond-the-spiritual-heart/?p=661344

 

 

This is all getting really silly... I am off for a beer. But, it is an IPA for me, not a fan of light beer.

Alcohol destroys the etheric double's fabric, puts holes in your aura and kills brain cells in the frontal lobes where the third eye is connected.

[Tibetan_Ice]

No, that is definitely not what I am saying. But way before one gets to that section of the passage, one must "make the two into one, and when you make the inner like the outer and the outer like the inner, and the upper like the lower". When the inside and the outside are realized to be the same.

The only thing that even faintly resembles this concept is the joining of the three bodies with their etheric counterparts(inner and outer) as mentioned by Draskalos:

In the Old Testament, God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness.” “Our image” means to the image of all the heavens… to the heavenly worlds: Material World, Psychical Worlds the worlds of emotion and the Noetical Worlds the mental worlds of thought. These worlds correspond to our material body our psychical or emotional body and our noetical or mental body.

“According to our likeness” means that mankind in its Divine Nature is similar to God as the Archangels are. So mankind is in the image of the heavens, but where are these heavens? Christ was clear about that saying, “The kingdom of the heavens is within you.” The heavens are within the Divine Nature of the Spirit Soul Self.

 

Now we will put this all together. As a human being our material body is of the first heaven. Our material body is a vehicle of expression we use while living in the material world and that material body has an Etheric Double, which corresponds to the second heaven. We also have the Psychical Body, which corresponds to the third heaven. Our Psychical Body is a vehicle of expression we use while living in the Psychical Worlds.

 

This body also has its Etheric Double, which is of the fourth heaven. We then have a Noetical Body, which corresponds to the fifth heaven. Our Noetical Body is a vehicle of expression we use while living in the Noetical Worlds and likewise this body has its own Etheric Double, which corresponds to the sixth heaven. Finally, we have the seventh heaven, which corresponds to the Spirit Body if you can even call it a body at this level. It is the Archetypal Human Form, but it is not really a body.

 

We have bodies corresponding to the heavens we use when travelling in these heavens. These bodies, like the heavens, are intertwined and co-exist one with the other. In order to visit a higher heaven, we must come out of the lower body. For example, to consciously visit the third heaven, the Psychical planes, we must consciously come out of our material body, passing through its Etheric Double and compose our self-awareness in our Psychical Body on the Psychical planes. This process is called the first Exosomatosis, which means conscious out of body experience. To visit the fifth heaven of the Noetical planes, we then must make the second Exosomatosis and leave the Psychical Body passing through its Etheric Double and compose our self-awareness in our Noetical Body on the Noetical planes of the fifth heaven. To reach this seventh heaven requires a third Exosomatosis, coming out of the Noetical Body passing through its Etheric Double and entering our Noetic form, which is not really a body but a state of Being.

 

In the higher radiant Noetic World, we find a world of causes and ideas that are defining the forms we first see appear in the Noetical Worlds. The very advanced mystics, who can reach the Noetic, can see anything and everything concerning any form of life. This means such a mystic could see the entire Circle of Possibilities, from beginning to end all at the same time for any form of life.

 

 

...

Aesthetic Ether Aesthetic Ether is the feeling giving ether. It enables physical sensations. It allows us to feel various parts of our material body, the toes, the knees, and anywhere in the body. The role of this Ether is much greater in the Psychical Body than it is in the material body. Our happy, sad, angry and other feelings are psychical vibrations. These are felt and experienced via the Aesthetic Ether of the Etheric Double of the Psychical Body.

 

Our ability to sense sorrow or happiness in others is also due to the Aesthetic Ether of the Etheric Double of our Psychical Body. In the material body, Aesthetic Ether is giving us the sense of pleasure and pain. The experience of pain is associated with a lack of Kinetic Ether and the intensified activity and the buildup of Aesthetic Ether, the purpose of which is to bring our attention to the affected area. Anesthesia means without feeling. An anesthetic is an agent such as a drug that produces an insensibility to pain.

 

Daskalos, however, did not need anesthetics to remove pain. In circle meetings, Daskalos has, on certain occasions, demonstrated how to remove the Aesthetic Ether from his or other peoples’ Etheric Double. For the demonstration, he would rub his hands briefly over an arm as he removed the feeling giving Aesthetic Ether. Then he would push a large hatpin through his or someone’s forearm and there would be no pain. However, this skill of his was dedicated to remove the pain from others, as he performed cures to their material bodies.

 

Once after a Stoa Lesson, an elderly lady from Europe approached Daskalos for help. She had a lot of pain in her left arm. She could not straighten her arm and held it curled up to her chest. Even small arm movements gave her a great deal of pain. Daskalos touched her arm gently and immediately proclaimed it was due to nerve damage. He said that he would have to create new nerves and reached to straighten her arm to begin his work. She pulled away guarding her damaged arm and protested that it was much too painful and it could not be straightened. Daskalos comforted her and gently said that he would make it so she would not feel any pain.

 

I was standing on Daskalos’ right side and could tell by the lady’s face that she did not believe this was possible. He rubbed her arm with his slightly cupped hand and proceeded to straighten the arm, but as he started the lady again reacted and pulled back fearing the pain she knew would come. Daskalos insisted she would not feel pain as he had already removed the Aesthetic Ether and extended her arm anyway. I watched closely as the lady tilted her head back contorting her face bracing for the pain, which never came. As her arm extended the look on her face changed to astonishment. She watched in disbelief as Daskalos deftly worked on her arm for a few minutes rebuilding the damaged nerves.

 

“There” Daskalos announced as he bent and straightened her arm several times demonstrating the success of his work. The lady seemed unsure at first as she tried to adjust to the new condition of her arm. The healing had happened so fast it was difficult for her mind to grasp. She walked away looking at her arm amazed as she moved it. Daskalos employed many states of Ether in order to carry out this healing. For the diagnosis, he used the Aesthetic Ether to sense and feel what was going on within the arm. Using the Imprinting Ether, he was able to see the actual conditions of the nerves. He was able to remove the Aesthetic Ether from the arm and thus eliminating her pain.

 

For the actual healing, he used the Kinetic, Aesthetic, Imprinting and the Creative Ether together. Of course, Daskalos was co-creating with the Holy Spirit in this and he would never claim that he personally did the healing. Nevertheless, his co-operation was skillful and Self-Conscious. He did not just blindly flood the person with Etheric Vitality and pray to the Holy Spirit for a healing. He also knew exactly what he was doing. He used the various properties of the Ether in his work as a surgeon would use surgical instruments. He continuously observed his work and maintained Self-Conscious control as he performed it. He also infused this healing Elemental with his ardent prayer that the damage be corrected and the arm restored to perfection.

 

 

 

So, In that last example, an arm was replaced by an arm.

Don't forget, Jesus is a healer too.

 

Also, I agree with Jetsun. Repeated pushing out of the etheric body damages and weakens it.

Pushing people out of their bodies is not a good thing to do.

[Apech]

TI and Apech - This topic has already been discussed earlier in this thread. The practice is somewhat different, but similar to a Yidam practice. Here is the previous post...

 

http://thedaobums.com/topic/39937-beyond-the-spiritual-heart/?p=661344

 

 

This is all getting really silly... I am off for a beer. But, it is an IPA for me, not a fan of light beer.

 

 

Enjoy your beer.  Since I am struggling to follow this thread I think I will give up.

[Jeff]

The only thing that even faintly resembles this concept is the joining of the three bodies with their etheric counterparts(inner and outer) as mentioned by Draskalos:

So, In that last example, an arm was replaced by an arm.

Don't forget, Jesus is a healer too.

Also, I agree with Jetsun. Repeated pushing out of the etheric body damages and weakens it.

Pushing people out of their bodies is not a good thing to do.

 

Again, we are talking about completely different things. But enjoy your book.

 

Back to my beer now, maybe I can even find 3bob and join him for one...

 

[Tibetan_Ice]

Again, we are talking about completely different things. But enjoy your book. :)Back to my beer now, maybe I can even find 3bob and join him for one...

From Awakening The Third Eye, Samuel Sagan:

 

17.6 Alcohol and spiritual work – a dangerous mixture

I would never advise anybody to smoke, but it is a fact that one can go quite a long way spiritually and still be addicted to cigarettes. Tobacco generates negative vibrations, but its action is not lethal to spiritual life.

Alcohol, on the other hand, can very quickly lead to disaster if one is learning to explore non-physical worlds. Alcohol automatically connects you with areas of the lower astral that are full of noxious entities. Therefore alcohol should be avoided at any cost, as soon as one starts to work on the third eye.

 

 

 

[dwai]

From Awakening The Third Eye, Samuel Sagan:

 

 

I do still enjoy a drink or two occasionally. I don't find alcohol in moderation to be debilitating (I mean a couple of drinks a month). In fact I just enjoy the drink...

 

I found other things far more negative - for example meat. Certain types of spices (or combinations thereof) can make things pretty interesting (in a bad way). Onions, garlic are pretty potent and to be avoided.

 

Haha that doesn't mean I haves third eye...fact is my first two eyes are pretty weak (have been wearing glasses since the 4th grade ;-))

 

I don't understand the intensity in your posts TI. I've noticed it earlier too...there is a sense of immaturity. An indignant righteousness, sometimes bordering on the petulant seems to creep into them. Why can't you just let people to their own devises? Karma is a bery powerful thing..what people sow, so they shall reap...we should focus on our own practice.

 

Cheers *hic!*

 

[dawei]

Just a couple of points on yidam practice and 'merging'.

 

merges with you and you with it - you become inseparable.  

 

The reason this is possible is that the nature of your own mind and the yidam are the same.  Or to put it another way the yidam is an aspect of your buddha-nature (enlightened mind) with which you reconnect and then become.  This is considered a very powerful way to realise the true nature of your mind

 

 

There is one version of 'merge' which might mean to dissolve or even muddy the boundaries between two separate things.

 

However if you affirm that all beings are in fact separated by their skins into unique individuals - but that the core nature of their beings is not essentially different one to another - then you could affirm the 'not-twoness' of them.  This is what happens in yidam meditation - you do not merge as become lost in the deity or something like that - you realise that you and it are not different in the way I explained above.

 

 

I do practice with yidam - mostly vajrasattva at present thought also Chenrezig and Medicine Buddha.

 

 

None of this means you merge with anther person - where does that idea come from?

 

 

Enjoy your beer.  Since I am struggling to follow this thread I think I will give up.

 

Ok... now I'm struggling to understand what the struggle is as you do yidam.  But if my questioning is simply asking more than you want to discuss, just let me know.

 

You call yidam as not really merging.  Yet there is not 'not-twoness' .... and one "become lost in the deity or something like that - you realise that you and it are not different".

 

But you object to using the term "merge" for what you describe....  possibly 'merge' is a better description.

 

have you tried this with another person in a way that the two-ness doesn't exist and there is just one space?

 

Maybe the word "merge" is the issue.. but the fact is, people easily check, visit, get inside another.... merge is just another level of saying the same.  At least, that is my opinion.

[3bob]

wine is generally stronger than beer, worse is mixing the two!  (not more than a few drinks a month for me also Dwai, and I try to look away from the zombie movies to)

[dawei]

wine is generally stronger than beer, worse is mixing the two!  (not more than a few drinks a month for me also Dwai, and I try to look away from the zombie movies to)

 

Mixing or merging.... if it is something one is not capable of rising above, or has some negative reaction of, they will post it as worse or to be avoided.... for others, it is just a non-issue.   

 

I'm thinking you can mix... or have more than a few drinks a month...  I think your just being polite

[Apech]

Ok... now I'm struggling to understand what the struggle is as you do yidam.  But if my questioning is simply asking more than you want to discuss, just let me know.

 

You call yidam as not really merging.  Yet there is not 'not-twoness' .... and one "become lost in the deity or something like that - you realise that you and it are not different".

 

But you object to using the term "merge" for what you describe....  possibly 'merge' is a better description.

 

have you tried this with another person in a way that the two-ness doesn't exist and there is just one space?

 

Maybe the word "merge" is the issue.. but the fact is, people easily check, visit, get inside another.... merge is just another level of saying the same.  At least, that is my opinion.

 

 

Well, what I said is my experience and understanding from practice.

 

I see yidam practice as completely different to trying to merge with another human being.  In fact, and I may have misunderstood what is intended I find the whole idea rather creepy.

[dawei]

Well, what I said is my experience and understanding from practice.

 

I see yidam practice as completely different to trying to merge with another human being.  In fact, and I may have misunderstood what is intended I find the whole idea rather creepy.

 

I'm not sure I follow... why is connecting with a deity ok but another person not?   

 

Given the 'not-twoness' of everything?

 

Have you ever done healing?

 

I find those that do healing, or even magic or psychic folks all do this on some level.

 

It is all quite natural on some level... unless it is not.