Beyond the spiritual heart

[Jeff]

 

Jeff, you seem to change your story depending on which way the wind is blowing. Today, there's "no need to compare to the Buddhist tantric Yidam practice."

 

Yet in August, Buddhist tantric Yidam practice was a valuable part of your 'teaching'.

 

 

 

 

I see you are now back to posting out of context messages from other forums. My responses in the thread you have quoted above was to a specific person who's perspective is based in his understanding of the Lotus Sutra (buddhist). I have known him for many years across multiple websites and tailored the response to his "framework" of understanding. The important thing is that he understood the response.

[Tibetan_Ice]

I see you are now back to posting out of context messages from other forums. My responses in the thread you have quoted above was to a specific person who's perspective is based in his understanding of the Lotus Sutra (buddhist). I have known him for many years across multiple websites and tailored the response to his "framework" of understanding. The important thing is that he understood the response.

You know Jeff, a forum is a public place. Once something is posted on the Internet in a forum, it is fully available to the public.

 

This is really sad. You are pimping yidam deities and consort practices to others while you yourself have no understanding of the practices, requirements or implications. As quoted in my previous posts, the Buddhas and Gods are not at your beckon call, yidam deities are manifestations of mind substance from your own mind. Further, consort practice without the realization of emptiness is useless, no better that having sex with someone. It takes years of development before you can even take up consort practice. Your lack of understanding is phenomenal.

 

http://community.livingunbound.net/index.php?/topic/479-this-is-unbelievable/&page=2

Hi Riju,

 

Yes, what you have said makes sense, but it must be remembered that beyond the human body mind layer, we are both male and female (or neither). Physical male and female relates to emptiness of self. At higher levels, and where one realizes the emptiness of ultimate reality (and worlds can be created), it is more about transmission (male principle) and reception (female principle). Such polarities are necessary for duality/existence. These higher levels can be purely light/energy, but the local mind is rarely pure and such movement/flow is again translated into percieved form (male or female or sexual).

 

Additionally, energetic/tantric consort practice happens at the levels of the capacity of the partners, so picking the appropriate partner is important. You are more naturally male/transmission, hence working with beings like the blonde you describe can provide the counterpoint for your beyond body mind expansion. Additionally, merging with various Buddhas/Gods (buddhis Yidam practices), combined with consort practices (or Dakini) practices will make it even faster.

 

Happy to help or "introduce" you to some partner beings some time.

 

Best, Jeff

 

 

Introduce or pimp?

 

And then this?

 

...

The practices that I have described above are part of the teachings of Jesus. In Christianity, the joint purification loop that I have described is called communion. The body and blood are the two components. The body symbolizes form (earthly reception), the blood symbolizes spirit (divine transmission

 

Communion is not consort practice.

 

I'm sure you will get exactly what you deserve.

Edited December 17, 2015 by Tibetan_Ice

[Jeff]

Hi TI,

 

I stand by my posts in the context they were given. I get that you do not understand them.

 

 

Best wishes to you,

Jeff

 

(Edit - iPad format issue)

Edited December 17, 2015 by Jeff

[Apech]

..... (snip)

 

Communion is not consort practice.

 

You give Christianity a bad name. You also give Buddhism a bad name, deceiving others with your faulty interpretations and blind promises of "faster" progress.

You know Jeff, you might be suffering from kundalini psychosis. Perhaps you should seek professional help.

I say this as a concerned human being. I am also very concerned for the people you are affecting, or should I say "infecting".

 

T_I,

 

Although I share your dislike of the misuse of Buddhist terminology - this as you have pointed out an open forum where all views count.  If we are not all free to express ourselves here (within the rules of civility) then we would be shutting out some views and establishing an orthodoxy - which we don't have as it is not in within the philosophy of DaoBums.

 

There is a rule against ad hominem attack and armchair psychoanalysing of another user as suffering from some form of psychosis is close to breaking this rule.  In fact it probably does break the rule.

[Tibetan_Ice]

T_I,

 

Although I share your dislike of the misuse of Buddhist terminology - this as you have pointed out an open forum where all views count. If we are not all free to express ourselves here (within the rules of civility) then we would be shutting out some views and establishing an orthodoxy - which we don't have as it is not in within the philosophy of DaoBums.

 

There is a rule against ad hominem attack and armchair psychoanalysing of another user as suffering from some form of psychosis is close to breaking this rule. In fact it probably does break the rule.

Where exactly are the rules posted?

[Apech]

Where exactly are the rules posted?

 

I can't remember - ask the mod team.

[Jeff]

You know Jeff, a forum is a public place. Once something is posted on the Internet in a forum, it is fully available to the public.

This is really sad. You are pimping yidam deities and consort practices to others while you yourself have no understanding of the practices, requirements or implications. As quoted in my previous posts, the Buddhas and Gods are not at your beckon call, yidam deities are manifestations of mind substance from your own mind. Further, consort practice without the realization of emptiness is useless, no better that having sex with someone. It takes years of development before you can even take up consort practice. Your lack of understanding is phenomenal. http://community.livingunbound.net/index.php?/topic/479-this-is-unbelievable/&page=2

Introduce or pimp?

And then this? Communion is not consort practice.

I'm sure you will get exactly what you deserve.

 

If you are going to try to mislead people and quote me from other sites, at least pick posts that directly relate. Here is an older post on the mystical nature of communion with supporting text included(but I realize that you don't believe in any written words of Jesus). Have fun...

 

http://community.livingunbound.net/index.php?/topic/210-communion-a-mystical-perspective/

 

edit...

 

Just decided to post it here. No need to further mess up Bindi's thread...

 

http://thedaobums.com/topic/40048-communion-a-mystical-perspective/

 

 

Edited December 17, 2015 by Jeff

[Michael Sternbach]

Where exactly are the rules posted?

 

terms and rules

 

Please read the second last paragraph of the quoted text carefully.

[Tibetan_Ice]

terms and rules

 

Please read the second last paragraph of the quoted text carefully.

So it is against the rules to post inaccurate information...

 

You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this bulletin board to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate , abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, spam, obscene, profane, threatens or incites violence, invasive of a person's privacy, nor of denigrating and/or erotically suggestive avatars, signatures, links and pictures, or otherwise violative of any law.

 

[Tibetan_Ice]

 

If you are going to try to mislead people and quote me from other sites, at least pick posts that directly relate. Here is an older post on the mystical nature of communion with supporting text included(but I realize that you don't believe in any written words of Jesus). Have fun...

 

...

 

Jeff, you've slandered me.

 

I did not say that "I do not believe in any written words of Jesus" as you have stated. You have twisted my words and are presenting me in a false light.

 

What I said is this "I just can't believe in a book that says that unless you believe in something you are forever damned. I also don't believe that Jesus said most of any quote from the bible."

 

There is a difference. Perhaps Jesus said things that were later quoted in the dead book, perhaps not.

 

Besides, why would I rely on a dead book when I have the Living Christ in my life?

 

The first words that Jesus spoke to me twenty seven years ago were "you are saved".

 

Since then I have had many conversations with Him.

 

If you keep propagating the lie that "you don't believe in any written words of Jesus" you will get what you deserve.

 

Further, a true Christian Mystic (as you try to present yourself as) would have had superior vision, insight and perspicacity to realize what was being said.

 

Since you like quotes, here are some you might remember:

 

http://community.livingunbound.net/index.php?/topic/376-i-lost-my-way/

 

But when Jeff with blond came near,

 

it made riju lose the path of TRUTH for a short period

 

Gods, consorts, Male/female are plain creativities of religions/mind.

 

They exist and play their roles, But they are not the TRUTH.

 

AND THIS CREATION DEPENDS ON TRUTH AND ONLY TRUTH NOTHING ELSE.

 

 

 

In that post, Riju was concerned that

 

Posted 5 Oct 2014

A mahayanist has open body

 

All types of energies enter and are handled.

 

In case of Blonde, I was being directed to accept one particular type of energy.

 

and this limited my scope

 

And then you use the Dalai Lama to try to press your point:

Some words on the topic from the Dalai Lama on a special "form" of Wisdom...

 

Therefore, whether in sutra or in tantra, there is consensus that the only direct antidote to the ignorance of clinging to things as real—which lies at the root of our karma and disturbing emotions—is the wisdom that realizes emptiness. So for Dzogchen practitioners, too, it is extremely important to realize emptiness.

 

 

Riju did not like what you did to him.

 

How that explains "the blonde" or even comes close to consort practice is beyond me. Are you pimping the blonde and pretending that your "good friend" Riju has emotional problems that are blocking his resistance? Didn't you also tell someone else that they had the same issue??? Lording lack of realization of emptiness over them like it is their fault?

 

Since you say that you always answer my questions, perhaps you could answer that one...

[Michael Sternbach]

So it is against the rules to post inaccurate information...

 

 

Not to forget:

 

 

You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this bulletin board to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, spam, obscene, profane, threatens or incites violence, invasive of a person's privacy, nor of denigrating and/or erotically suggestive avatars, signatures, links and pictures, or otherwise violative of any law.

 

 

In light of this, let's take another look just at your last post:

 

Jeff, you've slandered me.

 

I did not say that "I do not believe in any written words of Jesus" as you have stated. You have twisted my words and are presenting me in a false light.

 

What I said is this "I just can't believe in a book that says that unless you believe in something you are forever damned. I also don't believe that Jesus said most of any quote from the bible."

 

There is a difference. Perhaps Jesus said things that were later quoted in the dead book, perhaps not.

 

Besides, why would I rely on a dead book when I have the Living Christ in my life?

 

The first words that Jesus spoke to me twenty seven years ago were "you are saved".

 

Since then I have had many conversations with Him.

 

If you keep propagating the lie that "you don't believe in any written words of Jesus" you will get what you deserve.

 

Further, a true Christian Mystic (as you try to present yourself as) would have had superior vision, insight and perspicacity to realize what was being said.

 

Since you like quotes, here are some you might remember:

 

http://community.livingunbound.net/index.php?/topic/376-i-lost-my-way/

 

 

 

In that post, Riju was concerned that

And then you use the Dalai Lama to try to press your point:

 

Riju did not like what you did to him.

 

How that explains "the blonde" or even comes close to consort practice is beyond me. Are you pimping the blonde and pretending that your "good friend" Riju has emotional problems that are blocking his resistance? Didn't you also tell someone else that they had the same issue??? Lording lack of realization of emptiness over them like it is their fault?

 

Since you say that you always answer my questions, perhaps you could answer that one...

 

Perhaps you could refrain from making remarks like the highlighted ones. In fact, the moderating team must insist upon it.

[Jeff]

Hi TI,

I am not going to discuss Riju's personal stuff with you. I always keep such things confidential. If you wish to talk to Riju about me or our many, many discussions and posts, feel free to do so. Additionally, you can even go back to AYP and see the Riju and Jeff thread specifically. The thread continues at Living unbound.

http://community.livingunbound.net/index.php?/topic/238-continuing-of-riju-jeff-thread-from-ayp-site/

If you do decide to talk with Riju on spiritual topics, I suggest that you read and become deeply familiar with the Lotus sutra. He pretty much ignores everything else.

Best, Jeff

 

P.S.  You may find this also interesting...

 

From the Secret Gospel of Mary...

 

1. These are sayings, spoken by Salome the Maiden in the name of St. Mary Magdalene, which women of wisdom have held in trust. Mary said, “If you know the Woman of Light, you will know your Mother and be reborn of the Mother Spirit as a child of light. Because the light is bornless, you will have eternal life.”

 

http://www.sophian.org/secret_gospel_of_mary.html

​​

Edited December 18, 2015 by Jeff

[Jeff]

Going back to Bindi's topic, I found this poem that could relate to the OP...

 

My true home is on Cold Mountain
perched among cliffs beyond the reach of trouble
images leave no trace when they vanish
I roam the whole universe from here
lights and shadows flash across my mind
not one dharma appears before me
since I found this magic pearl
I can go anywhere everywhere is perfect. 


From The Collected Songs of Cold Mountain translated by Red Pine

[Tibetan_Ice]

Hi TI,

 

I am not going to discuss Riju's personal stuff with you. I always keep such things confidential. If you wish to talk to Riju about me or our many, many discussions and posts, feel free to do so.

 

 

​​

I do not need your permission to talk to anyone.

 

I'm more interested in this thread, where you try to bully Riju into accepting your "blond" when it is obvious that Riju has rejected your premise and your "limited" energy. You seem to go to great lengths to convince Riju that using a female "blond" which you claims sucks out energies, purifies them and sends the back to the person is a high level practice. You quote from the bible and the Dalai Lama. You show no respect for your friend or his chosen path.

 

Good for Riju for holding his ground and standing up for his beliefs.

 

So let me get this straight.

 

In August you are trying to lure Riju into chat so you can show him that cosmic energy storage by remaining in awareness does not work and that in order to expand he must do this.. Use a consort...

 

For such expansion, one needs the balance of the female, or the male just transmits (flows through). That is why there are all of the pictures of Buddhas in Yabyum and later turning stories of all Buddhas having consorts. Can show you what I mean in chat some time, if you are interested

 

 

So first you tell him that all the Buddhists use consorts, which is blatantly false.

 

When Riju says that "Subsequently Christ is active even now in the bodies of Popes who live in Vatican."

 

You reply:

 

We definitely seem to have different understandings of Jesus and the nature of the Christ path/lineage. Also, Jesus even stated that there should be no priests, why do you feel he is active in the bodies of Popes? Also, most Pope's through time have been verry corrupt.

 

i see you have no use for the institutions that were born from Christ. Isn't that being heretical?

 

Then in October, you have this discussion with Riju:

 

http://community.livingunbound.net/index.php?/topic/376-i-lost-my-way/

 

 

The whole thread is about how you caused Riju to lose his way.

 

...

But when Jeff with blond came near,

 

it made riju lose the path of TRUTH for a short period

 

Gods, consorts, Male/female are plain creativities of religions/mind.

 

They exist and play their roles, But they are not the TRUTH.

 

AND THIS CREATION DEPENDS ON TRUTH AND ONLY TRUTH NOTHING ELSE.

 

 

Riju understands that consorts and Male/Female are mind's creations, and this is a higher view than yours. Yet you try to pull him down to your level of playing with energy purification with the imaginary "blond". For shame..

 

I see your actions as a form of spiritual bullying. Why is it that you don't understand or realize what you are doing?

 

Before you can teach others how to be unlightened you have to be enlightened yourself. Otherwise it is all hearsay.

Edited December 19, 2015 by Tibetan_Ice

[Jeff]

I do not need your permission to talk to anyone.

I'm more interested in this thread, where you try to bully Riju into accepting your "blond" when it is obvious that Riju has rejected your premise and your "limited" energy. You seem to go to great lengths to convince Riju that using a female "blond" which you claims sucks out energies, purifies them and sends the back to the person is a high level practice. You quote from the bible and the Dalai Lama. You show no respect for your friend or his chosen path.

Good for Riju for holding his ground and standing up for his beliefs.

So let me get this straight.

In August you are trying to lure Riju into chat so you can show him that cosmic energy storage by remaining in awareness does not work and that in order to expand he must do this.. Use a consort...

 

So first you tell him that all the Buddhists use consorts, which is blatantly false.

When Riju says that "Subsequently Christ is active even now in the bodies of Popes who live in Vatican."

You reply:

 

i see you have no use for the institutions that were born from Christ. Isn't that being heretical?

Then in October, you have this discussion with Riju:http://community.living]http://community.living[/url] unbound.net/index.php?/topic/376-i-lost-my-way/

The whole thread is about how you caused Riju to lose his way.

 

Riju understands that consorts and Male/Female are mind's creations, and this is a higher view than yours. Yet you try to pull him down to your level of playing with energy purification with the imaginary "blond". For shame..

I see your actions as a form of spiritual bullying. Why is it that you don't understand or realize what you are doing?

Before you can teach others how to be unlightened you have to be enlightened yourself. Otherwise it is all hearsay.

Spiritual bullying... I would suggest that you look at your own posts.

 

On Riju... If you would actually talk to Riju, rather than just view the world through your lens, you would far better understand what he is saying.

 

Rather than this endless back and forth, since we both love Jesus, why don't we instead start a joint thread where we both talk about the power and magestry of Jesus's teachings. Something to share for all of the Taoist bums here. Are there some verses that have special meaning for you that could start it off?

 

Best wishes.

Edited December 19, 2015 by Jeff

[3bob]

Anyway, lets just say for a moment that the Self does not need to develop anything to be It-Self; for instance it doesn't need to clear any chakras or have kundalini rising to be itself, it doesn't need 3rd eye ability or blue seed attainment for ultimate consciousness or being-ness, it doesn't need transmissions to spiritually jack itself up,  it doesn't need concepts, ruminations or pro and con arguments to nail itself down, thus it does not need nor can it get proof of itself from outside of itself...  for only our mental/emotional selves veiled from true identity think that grasping at such "mystical" things will end their worries - (although such things or tools do have a place and purpose)  - a worry which happens when, "looking from the outside-in" and not being able to see, so why not just for a moment imagine the following (which may sound dualistic but is not),  - look from the inside-out and see that there is no need to worry - 

Edited December 19, 2015 by 3bob

[Jeff]

Anyway, lets just say for a moment that the Self does not need to develop anything to be It-Self; for instance it doesn't need to clear any chakras or have kundalini rising to be itself, it doesn't need 3rd eye ability or blue seed attainment for ultimate consciousness or being-ness, it doesn't need transmissions to spiritually jack itself up,  it doesn't need concepts, ruminations or pro and con arguments to nail itself down, thus it does not need nor can it get proof of itself from outside of itself...  for only our mental/emotional selves veiled from true identity think that grasping at such "mystical" things will end their worries - (although such things or tools do have a place and purpose)  - a worry which happens when, "looking from the outside-in" and not being able to see, so why not just for a moment imagine the following (which may sound dualistic but is not),  - look from the inside-out and see that there is no need to worry - 

 

Agreed about the "no need to worry"

[Geof Nanto]

Anyway, lets just say for a moment that the Self does not need to develop anything to be It-Self; for instance it doesn't need to clear any chakras or have kundalini rising to be itself, it doesn't need 3rd eye ability or blue seed attainment for ultimate consciousness or being-ness, it doesn't need transmissions to spiritually jack itself up,  it doesn't need concepts, ruminations or pro and con arguments to nail itself down, thus it does not need nor can it get proof of itself from outside of itself...  for only our mental/emotional selves veiled from true identity think that grasping at such "mystical" things will end their worries - (although such things or tools do have a place and purpose)  - a worry which happens when, "looking from the outside-in" and not being able to see, so why not just for a moment imagine the following (which may sound dualistic but is not),  - look from the inside-out and see that there is no need to worry - 

 

You describe the sort of cultivation practiced by the early Chinese Daoists - especially wilderness recluses. I like this strand of classical Daoism where there is nothing to willfully attain. Change comes naturally, like plants grow, bud and flower 'self-so'. Our personal 'flowering' is similarly a natural process. However, our lifestyle choices including praxis certainly plays a major role by either aiding or inhibiting our unfolding.

 

I've browsed this thread and found much of interest - especially the comments on merging.  It's always informative to read the words of others dedicated to authentic paths that differ from mine. Unfortunately, the discussion has been marred at times by an attitude of competitiveness. I was reminded of a joke I once heard......

 

Before enlightenment, "My dick is bigger than yours."  After enlightenment, "My aura is bigger than yours."

[Tibetan_Ice]

 

Back to topic of merging, which Bindi was inquiring about...

Jeff,

so, I checked out your AYP thread that you posted, with Riju.

 

Again, I find the same old misinformation and posing that you do.

 

You say that you give "light transmissions". You have given "light transmissions" to people on this forum and seem to have gained quite a following, moderators included.. Right?

 

So here we find a post in which you explain the jhanas (poorly) and you say that once you reach the seventh jhana, you can share presence (back to topic of merging, right?) and give "light transmissions".

 

Sharing presence, isn't that "merging"?

 

http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13398#114243

 

Hi Riju,

 

In classical Buddhist sutra, there are most often described to be nine Jhanas. Sometimes they are also broken into different two or three focused groupings. They are...

 

1st - Pleasant Sensations, 2nd - Joy, 3rd - Contentment, 4th - Utter Peacefulness, 5th - Infinity of Space, 6th - Infinity of Consciousness, 7th - No-thingness, 8th - Neither perception nor non-perception and 9th - Cessation.

 

They are first known as meditative states, but with ongoing clarity they become one's normal daily 24/7 experience. It is the 24/7 experience that is described as the full "realization".

 

With the 1st (pleasant sensations), one has reached the level of single pointed concentration. One will see things like "lights" and will often experience very pleasant vibrations (some call them heart orgasms) without trying to mentally "move" energy. By the 4th (utter peacefulness), one has "clarity of mind" and has moved beyond the effect of emotional responses. They no longer normally experience things like anger or irritation. (Can just enjoy traffic jams ).

 

With the 6th (infinity of consciousness), you can "find" any being in consciousness. It is also the beginning of what many call "oneness". In the 7th (No-thingness), one realizes they are the "stuff" of oneness. At this point, you can share presence with any being and give "light transmissions". With the full realization of the 8th, you realize that there really is no such thing as meditation, that you were just "fooling" yourself and "creating" and artificial state of mind.

 

I have never read anywhere that the seventh formless jhana is the one which enables you to merge or share your presence with other beings. If anything, it is the fourth jhana which grants the siddhis.

 

Further, the implications of what you written are mind boggling.

 

Since you claim to give "light transmissions", you are tacitly implying that you have achieved 7th jhana!

 

Since one does not enter the higher jhanas except through the lower jhanas, you have, in that very post, claimed to have mastered the jhanas. How did you do that without a regular standard practice routine? (You have told me many times that you have no regular practice, don't forget. Did you suddenly decide to become a practitioner?).

 

What technique did you use to get to the first jhana? Mahasi Sayadaw? Ajahn Brahm's? Forest tradition? Nostril focus? Anapanasati? Shamatha/vispassana? Buddhagosa's hard kasina jhana visualization? Visudhimagga style?

 

How did you do it?

 

I've almost mastered the first jhana, and believe you me, it is no easy task. It has taken over two years of dedicated meditation, several insights along the way and sincere effort.

 

And then you claim that by eighth jhana you realize that "you were just "fooling" yourself and "creating" and artificial state of mind."

 

You say you always answer my questions...

Well answer these:

 

1) Have you mastered the jhanas?

2) Which technique did you use?

3) How long did it take you? How many hours per day did you spend in meditation?

4) What experiences did you have as you progressed up the jhanic chain?

[Jeff]

 

Before enlightenment, "My dick is bigger than yours."  After enlightenment, "My aura is bigger than yours."

 

Excellent joke. Thank you.

 

Also, the clarity of your presence shines clearly far better than an aura. If you do have any specific questions, feel free to push the discussion forward.

[3bob]

why would they not feel free ?  besides as we all know this is Bindi's thread although we often forget that.

Edited December 19, 2015 by 3bob

[Jeff]

...

Well answer these:

1) Have you mastered the jhanas?

2) Which technique did you use?

3) How long did it take you? How many hours per day did you spend in meditation?

4) What experiences did you have as you progressed up the jhanic chain?

 

As you are well aware, I am not a Buddhist practice practioner, so the questions/terms do not fit with my background. But, in general on meditation techniques, I would recommend simply staying present in the moment and "residing". The simple version of my technique is below...

 

This body of ours is fleeting,

Like a leaf blowing free in a strong wind.

This mind of ours is empty and clear,

Like the depth of open space.

 

Relax in that natural state,

Free of any attempted support.

When mind is without any fabrication,

That is the primordial.

 

Becoming familiar with this,

Merging your mind with it—

That is Christhood.

 

Also, How about starting that Jesus thread I asked about earlier? Try to have a positive discussion about someone we both love?

 

 

[Michael Sternbach]

You have given "light transmissions" to people on this forum and seem to have gained quite a following, moderators included.. Right?

 

T_I,

 

Assuming that you include me with those "moderators":

 

Even though Jeff and I have interacted a number of times and hold one another in high regard, I am not his (or, for that matter, anybody else's) follower. And I never observed that he would have imposed himself on me or anybody else as a guru to be followed.

 

Having clarified this, I do not intend to further participate in the present discussion and will avoid being drawn into it. So you don't need to reply to me.

 

However, I will continue to read this thread - with the objective eye of a moderator.

[Bindi]

Anyway, lets just say for a moment that the Self does not need to develop anything to be It-Self; for instance it doesn't need to clear any chakras or have kundalini rising to be itself, it doesn't need 3rd eye ability or blue seed attainment for ultimate consciousness or being-ness, it doesn't need transmissions to spiritually jack itself up,  it doesn't need concepts, ruminations or pro and con arguments to nail itself down, thus it does not need nor can it get proof of itself from outside of itself...  for only our mental/emotional selves veiled from true identity think that grasping at such "mystical" things will end their worries - (although such things or tools do have a place and purpose)  - a worry which happens when, "looking from the outside-in" and not being able to see, so why not just for a moment imagine the following (which may sound dualistic but is not),  - look from the inside-out and see that there is no need to worry - 

 

This is just a cute sort of notion though, because the Self does need to develop, and figuring out how to do develop it is the issue.

 

And there might be many paths, but the underlying method is to seek within methinks, not to look from the inside-out. 

[3bob]

Self has no notions about It-Self and has no need to look within, (as the term Self is used in the Upanishads) and looking the from the inside out is only a manner of speaking for Self sees (or is) Self in all Beings, which is one of the secrets that is right under our noses often going unseen.

 

if you want to use the word self without a Capitol S then that is of a different meaning.

Edited December 20, 2015 by 3bob