Beyond the spiritual heart

[Tibetan_Ice]

I do still enjoy a drink or two occasionally. I don't find alcohol in moderation to be debilitating (I mean a couple of drinks a month). In fact I just enjoy the drink...

 

I found other things far more negative - for example meat. Certain types of spices (or combinations thereof) can make things pretty interesting (in a bad way). Onions, garlic are pretty potent and to be avoided.

 

Haha that doesn't mean I haves third eye...fact is my first two eyes are pretty weak (have been wearing glasses since the 4th grade ;-))

 

I don't understand the intensity in your posts TI. I've noticed it earlier too...there is a sense of immaturity. An indignant righteousness, sometimes bordering on the petulant seems to creep into them. Why can't you just let people to their own devises? Karma is a bery powerful thing..what people sow, so they shall reap...we should focus on our own practice.

 

Cheers *hic!*

 

Exactly. We should let people to their own practices, teach them how to progress on their own and share knowledge instead of pretending to give transmissions of "who knows what". It would be fine if Jeff and Tom kept to themselves, but they have come on to this forum and handed out some form of transmissions, which for the mostt part are unidentifiable, have no lineage, claim to be above the middle level of accomplishment and could very well be damaging to others.

 

They present quotes from Christianty, Taoism, Buddhism, Dzogchen or whatever they can, from the highest teachings, as if they were highly accomplished, and it denigrates the teachings. To become adept in the highest practices requires years of practice and dedication, true lineage, sincere devotion and practice and much help from spiritual masters. It is easy to pose and fool people in the annonimity of a forum. Case in point, if Tom actually had a Vajryana guru and that guru learned that Tom was giving transmissions in forums, he wouldn't have that guru for very long.

 

Now the latest statements is that their transmission is a form of yidam deity practice. Yidam practice is between the deity and the practitioner. There is no need for an intermediary. You don't need someone to put you in touch with Jesus, or any other of the advanced adepts through transmission, you only need to be shown how to develop what you have to in order to do so yourself. A deity is a super sensitive being that needs no intermediary.

 

In this ridiculous thread where Tom discounts the astral, he claims he also transmits "full body orgasm"

http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=89570&page=3

 

I am talking about sending energy back and forth with someone.. even over chat that can send full body orgasmic waves of energy. A much more advanced method.

 

...

 

I work with light my friend. I help open hearts and chakras and I don't do it in the astral.

 

http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=89570&page=2

 

 

I have considered that I am just wasting my time here. Perhaps you are right.

[C T]

 

Berzin Archives:

 

The Meaning of (Buddha) Tantra

 

 

The word tantra (rgyud) means an everlasting continuum. There are three levels of such continuums:

1. the basis everlasting continuum is the individual mental continuum (mind-stream) of each limited being (sentient being), with all its Buddha-nature factors (khams de-bzhin snying-po) that enable enlightenment;
2. the pathway everlasting continuum is the continuity ofMahayana practices with Buddha-figures (yi-dam, tantric deities), which can be sustained without end since Buddha-figures never grow tired or old, and never die;
3. the resultant everlasting continuum is the unending continuity of the enlightening corpuses (bodies) of a Buddha.

Practice of a pathway continuum purifies fleeting stains from a person's basis continuum so that it transforms into a resultant continuum. The texts that discuss these topics are also tantras.

Its not so much merging with a deity as in dissolving mundane traits so as to gradually reveal transcendent qualities within oneself. As each individual is unique, practitioners of Tantrayana either pick a particular yidam they feel an affinity with and through practice gradually adopt the qualities of that yidam, initially via conceptualized means with the hope that as the practice matures, those qualities will begin to manifest more and more spontaneously, OR if one is unsure, a teacher will sort of indicate which yidam practice to follow. There can of course be more than one over time. It depends. 

 

This explains quite well what yidam practice is in Tantrayana

http://www.khenpo.eu/yidam.pdf

[gatito]

Well, what I said is my experience and understanding from practice.

 

I see yidam practice as completely different to trying to merge with another human being.  In fact, and I may have misunderstood what is intended I find the whole idea rather creepy.

 

Yes, creepy resonates with me too...

 

"By the pricking of my thumbs..."

[Jonesboy]

I like this :http://www.dharmadownload.net/pages/english/Natsok/0014_Leksheyling_teaching/leksheyling_teachings_0012.htm

 

Venerable Chöje Lama Phuntsok

 

 

 

Yidam Deities in Vajrayana

 

 

 

Generally speaking, there are three vehicles of practice in Buddhism: Hinayana, Mahayana, and Vajrayana. Today I wish to speak about Vajrayana.

 

 

 

Meditating a Yidam deity is central in Vajrayana. It is crucial for Vajrayana practitioners to know that Yidam deities are not external to one’s own mind, rather they are images that help us work with our own mind. Yidams are the unblemished reflection of the primordial and innate true nature of our mind that manifests in specific forms and colors. The purpose and goal of our practice is to attain perfect Buddhahood, which manifests in three aspects or forms at fruition – the Dharmakaya, Sambhogakaya, and Nirmanakaya. It is important to know that the three kayas are indivisible.

 

 

 

Describing the three kayas briefly: Dharmakaya is the true nature or essence of Buddhahood that appears as the Sambhogakaya; the two kayas are not separate from one another. The Dharmakaya, that has no form and is therefore intangible, is the vast state or fundamental ground of the mind’s true nature that is free from inherent existence and adventitious stains; it cannot be fathomed and cannot be described in words. The unblemished, vast ground of one’s mind that is free from discursive thoughts, the Dharmakaya, is replete with great clarity and creativity and continuously manifests in a perceptible form, which, from the ultimate state of Buddhahood, is the Sambhogakaya, “the body of complete enjoyment.” Manifestations of the Sambhogakaya are referred to as Yidam deities. A Vajrayana practitioner turns his or her attention towards a depiction of one of the many Yidams that represent the ultimate state of enlightenment.

 

 

 

The great variety of Yidam deities have the same essence and are images of the many manifestations of enlightenment, for example, as Noble Chenrezig, Arya Tara, Bodhisattva Manjushri or the wrathful appearances such as Vajravarahi and Chakrasamvara. It’s important to distinguish between how things are and how things appear and to know that the essence of the manifold appearances of enlightenment is one and the same, namely the intangible Dharmakaya. Things appear in a limitless number of forms – thick, thin, flat, square, round, and so forth. They appear in many colors and in their combination – white, blue, yellow, red, and green. And so, enlightenment manifests in a great variety of forms and ways.

 

 

 

When we perceive and apprehend an appearance that accords with our propensities and inclinations – our wants and needs -, then we are happy about the appearance. When we apprehend an appearance that doesn’t accord with our personal inclinations, then we are less pleased with it. The manifestation of Yidams, which are an expression of enlightenment, are free from the necessity of appearing in a specific form or in a certain color, rather every Yidam is a reflection of our personal wants and needs. Being an image of people’s various capabilities and inclinations, some Yidams appear white in color, like Noble Chenrezig, others are blue, yellow, red, or green and have different forms. In truth, Yidams are the display of the immense compassion of the Buddhas.

 

 

 

Is the Yidam deity we meditate a truly existent, permanent entity? It is important to know that this is not the case. All Yidams arise in dependence in that they are created by our own mind. If one meditates a Yidam deity that one creates and cultivates with one’s mind intensively for a long period of time and accomplishes the aim of the practice, then one will have realized the actual and true manifestation of the Sambhogakaya.

 

 

 

A beginning practitioner works at creating an image of a Yidam like Noble Chenrezig by imagining his color and all details of his form as clearly as possible. It’s impossible for a beginner to see the image with opened eyes, so, knowing that one is engaging in the methods of practice by creating the image of a Yidam, one closes one’s eyes lightly and practices seeing the inner image until one sees it clearly. If one practices diligently, then the Yidam one meditates will eventually directly manifest. A practitioner of the Buddhadharma strives to attain Buddhadhood, complete and perfect enlightenment that manifests as the three kayas at fruition.

 

 

 

Buddhahood is attained through the gradual process of transforming oneself into the body of perfect enlightenment by overcoming and finally eradicating one’s destructive emotions that are veils concealing one’s true nature. One’s body, speech, and mind manifest as primordial purity when Buddhahood has been attained. When one has attained Buddhaood, one’s body will have been transformed into the Nirmanakaya, one’s speech into the Sambhogakaya, and one’s mind into the Dharmakaya. The three terms designate the goal that is eventually achieved through practice. Complete purification of one’s impurities that conceal one’s true nature is called Dharmakaya, Sambhogakaya, and Nirmanakaya; they are called mind, speech, and body for ordinary beings who have not vanquished their impurities and who have not attained fruition. And all along, the essence of the pure kayas and the essence of the impure aspects of ordinary living beings are and always will be the same.

 

 

 

The main purpose of practice is to transform one’s impure perception of appearances and apprehension of experiences that determine one’s life into pure and untainted perceptions and apprehensions. Therefore, in order to cleanse one’s impure way of perceiving and apprehending things, one repeatedly meditates the immaculate appearance of a Yidam deity. Practice consists of focusing one’s attention on a pure image of enlightenment, a Yidam, until one’s perception of the purity of all appearances becomes clear and brilliant and determines one’s life. It isn’t possible to attain this goal right away, and that is why beginners fabricate thoughts about a Yidam while cultivating it during meditation practice.

 

 

 

Beginners close their eyes and imagine the form, color, and ornaments of a specific Yidam, i.e., they simultaneously practice creating the pure physical, verbal, and mental aspects of the Yidam. The physical aspect of practice is visualizing the body of the Yidam as clearly as possible. The verbal aspect is reciting the mantra of the deity. And the mental aspect is concentrating one’s attention one-pointedly on the image and mantra of the Yidam without becoming distracted. Of course, it isn’t possible to perfect all three aspects of a Yidam such as Noble Chenrezig all at once and from the start, so one begins slowly and step by step by concentrating on the eyes, then on the head of the deity, continuing with its shoulders and entire body. One practices again and again, and, like all things in life, practice makes perfect. Through repeated and regular practice over a longer period of time the entire image of the Yidam will clearly appear in one’s mind.

 

 

 

Practitioners can have doubts and wonder whether the Yidam exists or not and whether the practice is beneficial or not. There is no reason to have doubts if one is aware of the fact that the image of the Yidam is not born outside oneself, since one knows that one is creating it with one’s imagination and with one’s eyes closed. If one continues practicing, then eventually one will see the image of the pure deity as the manifestation of one’s own perception with opened eyes. It’s important to be assured that a practitioner doesn’t walk around seeing blue or white images holding flowers in their hands, rather fruition means that a successful practitioner sees phenomena free from any personal, conceptual and emotional blemishes.

 

 

 

Perception of the true nature of all appearances and experiences has three aspects – clarity, unchanging, and perfect purity. This means to say that by practicing meditation diligently, a practitioner eventually perceives the essence of phenomena clearly and brilliantly. Furthermore, he or she sees that the essence of phenomena doesn’t fluctuate by coming and going, but is changeless, and that it is perfectly pure, which means to say that it isn’t blemished by impeding veils of disturbing emotions and thoughts.

 

 

 

We are followers of Vajrayana, and the heart of the Vajrayana path is meditating a Yidam deity. As said, it’s important not to have any illusions and to know that it isn’t easy to clearly perceive an enlightened Yidam. Traditionally, Yidam meditation practices were carried out in a three-year retreat, but if one practices diligently and becomes accustomed to generating and visualizing a deity, then eventually the visualization will arise clearly and distinctly.

 

 

 

Red Chenrezig is the main practice of Kagyüpa three-year retreatants. If a practitioner isn’t distracted and naturally and easefully abides in one-pointed concentration on Red Chenrezig for a while, then it can happen that he or she sees the entire room bathed in a vibrant, red color. It can also happen that retreatants lose their feeling for time, i.e., they lose their feeling for morning, noon, and night, even while taking their meals. This is a sign that a practitioner’s perception has become lucid, constant, and pure, i.e., he or she has become unaffected by time. These two examples are based upon my own experience. Another experience I had is that when the three aspects described above manifest, then one reaches a point at which every appearance is seen in the same way.

 

 

 

Meditating a Yidam is extremely helpful when it comes to dealing with daily samsaric appearances and experiences that we continuously face. Cultivating and identifying with the pure appearance of a Yidam deity again and again and over a longer period of time alleviates the impact that impure and painful experiences otherwise have. Everyone has problems and they vary from one person to the other. If a practitioner becomes accustomed to a pure Yidam that is not made of matter, then the force and strength of problems that everyone encounters and that everybody has weaken and diminish and as a result it’s easier dealing with them.

 

 

 

There are three prerequisites for Yidam practice to be beneficial: the person who meditates, the object of meditation, and the way the visualization is practiced. All three factors need to be united. It is very important to remember that the image of a Yidam that one produces and cultivates in one’s meditation does not arise and exist outside one’s own mind. It would be a grave illusion to think that the Yidam one produces during meditation practice is an external entity that truly exists and is other than oneself. A Yidam is a beneficial and wholesome projection of one’s own mind that one works with.

 

 

 

There are various ways of generating a Yidam deity in the different traditions. For example, there is the tradition of visualizing a Yidam in front of oneself in space and there is the tradition of visualizing oneself as a Yidam. A practitioner visualizes Red Chenrezig both in space as well as himself or herself in the form of the deity during a three-year retreat. One visualizes one’s ordinary body in the form of a Yidam, because, as it is, one is extremely attached to one’s body, speech, and mind due to thinking that they truly exist and stand for a self one believes in and clings to. The purpose of visualizing oneself as a Yidam is to diminish and slowly overcome attachment to the self that one believes in and clings to.

 

 

 

Meditating again and again that one’s body, speech, and mind are not different than the pure body, speech, and mind of a Yidam and that they are indivisible decreases and eventually eradicates one’s attachment to the ordinary idea one has of oneself that one clings to and that one is convinced really exists. It happens naturally and isn’t hard identifying with one’s ordinary body, speech, and mind and calling it “me,” and it isn’t easy giving up clinging to the impure body, speech, and mind one identifies with so strongly and points to as “I.” One needs to exert energy and practice, seeing one isn’t accustomed to experiencing the true and pure nature of one’s being. The aim of Vajrayana is to progressively replace one’s ordinary, gross perception with a pure perception of what is true.

 

 

 

Hinayana practitioners also learn to vanquish attachment to a self by intensively contemplating the impure substances that make up everyone’s body. Vajrayana practitioners, in contrast, do not give up clinging to a self by shunning appearances, rather they learn to purify their delusive relationship with appearances and experiences and then can give up their attachment and clinging to what they call “self and others.” Mahayana practitioners realize that all appearances - including their own body, tiniest atoms, and all constituents - are empty of inherent existence and only exist in dependence on other things. By realizing the empty nature of all sensory perceptions and apprehensions, they purify their impure cognition of reality and in the process give up clinging to a self and others.

 

 

 

Lord Buddha presented many methods of practice so that we can purify our delusive apprehensions of the world and sentient beings. Vajrayana practitioners engage in the result of the path while practicing, whereas followers of Sutrayana focus their attention on the cause that leads to the result. We saw that Buddhahood denotes realization of the indivisibility of the three kayas. Vajrayana practitioners identify with all three ultimate dimensions of reality, the result, by meditating and cultivating a Yidam while on the path to enlightenment, which means to say that they take the result as the path.

 

 

 

Attainment of the result, Buddhahood, doesn’t mean arriving at another location or being transposed, rather it means having gradually transformed one’s subtle channels (nadi in Sanskrit), winds (prana), and vital essences (bindu). At Buddhahood, the subtle channels that support one’s body are completely purified and are the Nirmanakaya; the subtle winds that support one’s speech are purified and are the Sambhogakaya; and the vital essences that support one’s mind are purified to the extent that one’s ordinary, conceptual mind that creates dualistic thoughts is purified and transformed into pristine awareness, which is the true nature of one’s mind, the Dharmakaya.

 

 

 

There are four classes of tantra in Vajrayana: action tantra (kriya tantra in Sanskrit), conduct tantra (charya tantra), yoga tantra (yoga tantra), and hightest yoga tantra (anuttarayoga tantra). Anuttarayoga tantra is the profoundest level of practice that is carried out in the frame of the Six Yogas of Naropa, at which stage the subtle channels, winds, and vital essences are central. Practitioners of Anuttarayoga don’t visualize Yidam deities anymore, but directly employ the pure aspects of body, speech, and mind, i.e., the unblemished manifestation of the self-perfected state. At fruition, our ordinary body, speech, and mind are transformed into their innate purity, in which case our mind is free of all contrivances and abides in simplicity.

 

 

 

Generally speaking, the subtle channels, winds, and vital essences are very powerful. When blockages in the channels are unravelled, i.e., the knots untied, and the winds can flow through them smoothly, then a practitioner doesn’t become sick anymore. Sicknesses arise due to blockages and disturbances in one’s subtle body. These blockages and disturbances and their interplay bring on sicknesses and diseases, which one experiences with one’s mind with sadness and woe. This process is referred to as suffering. If through practice one frees one’s subtle channels, winds, and vital essences of knots and disturbances, then one will be healthy and will experience happiness and bliss. If one can unite one’s subtle body, speech, and mind with the purity of a Yidam’s body, speech, and mind, then one’s channels, winds, and vital essences will have become purified and free. As a result, one will experience less sicknesses and suffering and, instead, one will experience happiness and joy. We saw that meditating a Yidam is central to Vajrayana, just as it is central to Mahayoga, and we should know that Yidams are directly related to oneself and accomplished when one has perfectly purified one’s subtle channels, winds, and vital essences. And so, it is evident that Yidams don’t exist outside or are separate from us, but are images of our own purity.

 

 

 

It’s important to distinguish between a designated Yidam and an actual Yidam. When speaking of Noble Chenrezig, for instance, we are referring to a designated deity. The actual and true deity is one’s own purified body, speech, and mind. Impure appearances are impure perceptions and apprehensions. When one’s impure perceptions and apprehensions have been purified and therefore overcome, then one’s ordinary body, ordinary speech, and ordinary mind will have been transformed into a vajra body, vajra speech, and vajra mind, which are the three aspects of enlightenment (the Nirmanakaya, Sambhogakaya, and Dharmakaya). At the moment, one isn’t able to connect or experience the actual Yidam. So one identifies with a designated Yidam that one produces with one’s thoughts in order to eventually experience and realize the actual Yidam. A practitioner begins by visualizing and identifying as best as he or she possibly can with a completely pure Yidam. Calm abiding or insight meditation are not topics of Yidam practice, which deals with the practice of meditating a deity.

 

 

 

There are innumerable practices. Since followers and practitioners have a huge amount of varying propensities and inclinations, there are a great number of Yidams in Vajrayana, starting with their various colors and forms. The great number of Yidam deities in Vajrayana can be compared to a menu in a big restaurant – every guest is free to choose the meal they prefer having. Vajrayana is like that too, seeing one’s practice is enhanced if the Yidam one creates accords with and satisfies one’s preferences and needs. There are practitioners who prefer meditating Noble Chenrezig, others feel more comfortable meditating Arya Tara; others want to meditate Sangye Menla, who is Medicine Buddha. Yet other practitioners want to meditate Buddha Amitabha. These deities appear in different forms, but, irrelevant of the outer form, every practice is beneficial and leads to the same result. There are many disciples who prefer meditating wrathful Yidams, such as Vajravarahi or Chakrasamvara or Kalachakra or Mahakala, and these practices bring the same result as meditating a peaceful deity. There are disciples who fear practicing Mahakala, for example, whereas other disciples really like meditating Mahakala, and this is what is meant when speaking about individual propensities and inclinations. In any case, Vajrayana practice consists of identifying with a Yidam, which is an extraordinary method when compared to practices taught in other vehicles.

 

 

 

Again, it’s important to differentiate between a Yidam designated and created by one’s mind with one’s thoughts and the actual and true Yidam. Hinayana and Mahayana followers often have great doubts when they see all the Vajrayana deities and think, “What a lot of constructs that lead away from the absolute truth.” So it’s important to differentiate and understand the meaning and purpose of Yidam practice. Due to the exceptional methods, Vajrayana is also called “Secret Mantrayana.”

 

 

 

I have spoken briefly about the principle and foundation of Vajrayana practice here. Thank you very much.

[Bindi]

I'm not sure I follow... why is connecting with a deity ok but another person not?   

 

Given the 'not-twoness' of everything?

 

Have you ever done healing?

 

I find those that do healing, or even magic or psychic folks all do this on some level.

 

It is all quite natural on some level... unless it is not. 

 

 

 

The Daskalos information T_I posted about healing may be relevant here.

 

Is Daskalos merging, when he isolates the 'etheric double' and changes things energetically on that level? This is a question, not a statement. He does interact with the person's energy body, certainly.

 

In my personal experience, i direct energy that comes through me from my connection to 'spirit' to the place where healing is needed, and this energy allows the physical or subtle body to do what is needed to heal, with no conscious intention on my part. So i 'channel' energy i guess, but i wouldn't consider this to be merging.

 

edit: This for me is an example of Jesus sending energy in healing, but not an example of merging - 

 

The Healing Touch of Jesus

 

Mark 5:27-31

27after hearing about Jesus, she came up in the crowd behind Him and touched His cloak.28For she thought, "If I just touch His garments, I will get well."29Immediately the flow of her blood was dried up; and she felt in her body that she was healed of her affliction. 30Immediately Jesus, perceiving in Himself that the power proceeding from Him had gone forth, turned around in the crowd and said, "Who touched My garments?"31And His disciples said to Him, "You see the crowd pressing in on You, and You say, 'Who touched Me?'

 

 

The whole healing topic as an example of merging i think needs to be examined more.

 

Is energy passed on in hands on modalities, and is merging then seen as a necessary basis of long distance healing?

 

I've never been motivated to attempt anything long distance, so i have very little idea about the nature of it.

 

And is either form, hands on or merging, more effective for the same healer?

Edited December 14, 2015 by Bindi

[dwai]

wine is generally stronger than beer, worse is mixing the two! (not more than a few drinks a month for me also Dwai, and I try to look away from the zombie movies to)

Yeah the zombie movies, MMA fights (what's the difference right?) etc are all pretty debilitating energetically speaking.

[Apech]

I'm not sure I follow... why is connecting with a deity ok but another person not?   

 

Given the 'not-twoness' of everything?

 

Have you ever done healing?

 

I find those that do healing, or even magic or psychic folks all do this on some level.

 

It is all quite natural on some level... unless it is not. 

 

 

Healing is something else entirely - more to do with manipulating resonant energies - as I was told once with great authority 'the patient really heals themselves.'

 

The yidam is an aspect of your own true nature (dharmakaya or buddha-nature) - another person is not.  

[Jetsun]

There are esoteric healing methods where you go into another persons system and energy field and in a sense merge with them temporarily. The interesting question is how that is possible at all.

 

But to do so doesn't necessarily take a really high level of spiritual development, yet for it it to be a completely healthy procedure it is better if the healer isn't coming from a place of lack or woundedness themselves (which a lot of people are, including Gurus) otherwise it can just be a perpetuation of dysfunctional interpersonal dynamics (which was basically why I brought up this issue in the first place, to consider that as a possibility).

 

The Tibetans do a lot of out of practises which can bring them out of their usual sense of self, but they also do a lot of grounding to practices to bring them back down, such as all the deep guttural chanting and things like Lung Jam and breathing exercises to bring the energy down and most of them eat a lot of meat to ground their energy. It isn't all about flying off out of body to merge with others, most of them are rooted like mountains in their own bodies.

[dawei]

Is energy passed on in hands on modalities, and is merging then seen as a necessary basis of long distance healing?

 

That depends on the method.

 

And is either form, hands on or merging, more effective for the same healer?

 

That depends on the method. 

 

I'm just surprised at the hang up on a word, particularly if someone has never done it.

[dawei]

Healing is something else entirely - more to do with manipulating resonant energies - as I was told once with great authority 'the patient really heals themselves.'

 

If you were to merge with someone, then you can just focus on your own arm... and not create the separation which doesn't exist anyways.   When merged, you can feel where there issue is too.  At least some can.   When I studied Medical Qigong, it was done as a focus onto/into the other person.    Is there really any difference?  I find at times one or the other is more effective but that is just me.  

 

 

 

The yidam is an aspect of your own true nature (dharmakaya or buddha-nature) - another person is not.  

 

If there is truly no separation between everything then why not?

 

Can there be an aspect of my own true nature but there is no aspect of another's true nature?

 

And how are those natures really different?  

 

(This is generally rhetorical but likely we just see it differently)

[Apech]

If you were to merge with someone, then you can just focus on your own arm... and not create the separation which doesn't exist anyways.   When merged, you can feel where there issue is too.  At least some can.   When I studied Medical Qigong, it was done as a focus onto/into the other person.    Is there really any difference?  I find at times one or the other is more effective but that is just me.  

 

 

 

 

If there is truly no separation between everything then why not?

 

Can there be an aspect of my own true nature but there is no aspect of another's true nature?

 

And how are those natures really different?  

 

(This is generally rhetorical but likely we just see it differently)

 

 

What do you mean that there's no separation between everything? Of course there is.  My arm is here attached to my shoulder (for the time being  and a little longer I hope) and yours is somewhere else.  And when you use techniques of feeling someone's energy for healing - that's called communication not merging surely - even if you you do this by identifying with the other person in order to feel the blockages or whatever.

[Bindi]

That depends on the method.

 

 

That depends on the method. 

 

I'm just surprised at the hang up on a word, particularly if someone has never done it.

 

When you say

 

 

"I find those that do healing... all do this [merge] on some level"

 

 

I disagree, because this has not been my experience of healing. My experience simply does not involve merging.  

 

Energy flowing through a conduit versus merging makes a world of difference to me in the context of healing. 

 

I have never done long distance healing, which was neither specified nor assumed in your statement, and I wasn't answering to long distance healing. But I seriously doubt all long distance healing involves merging. Developing a spiritual body to travel in space need not require that body to merge for energy to pass into another person, the spiritual body should be able to heal in exactly the same way as when the healer is in the physical body, which doesn't necessarily involve merging.

 

 

[johndoe2012]

Nope, long distance healing does not require merging.

 

The energy can be channeled through what some call the divine web, the web that connects all us.

[Tibetan_Ice]

Your question assumes the dualistic doctrine of the New Testament is incorrect.I personally don’t try to understand non-duality, nor do I seek non-duality, as I tend to keep my eyes fixed on the dualistic path that I am travelling. Whether non-dualism lies at the end of this road or not I can’t say right now, so whether the dualistic teaching of the Bible needed correcting or not I don’t know, though I could probably come up with an opinion.Is non-dualism correct, or merely fashionable? Is there any merit in dualistic thought, or is it hopelessly ignorant?

 

Hi Bindi,

You are very wise.

This is what Daskalos says about duality.. From Swimming With The Whale:

 

 

However, a Researcher of Truth seeks to come as close to the Absolute Truth as possible, because as a personality living in the three Worlds of Existence, the Absolute Truth cannot be understood before fully examining the relative truth. That is all right, because in the Words of Existence the perceptible relative truth is a result of the Absolute Truth. We will never stop our ascent up the ladder of relative truth. We are continually moving from the relative truth towards the Absolute Truth.

 

...

 

Daskalos told me once that when he had a difficult problem he was trying to sort out, he preferred to leave his material body in Exosomatosis to solve it. Of course we are not all able to make an out of body experience when dealing with our problems. We all can make an effort to climb to a higher rung on the ladder of relative truth and see the problem from a higher perspective.

 

The method needed to make our way up the ladder of relative truth is the method of Comparison. So we compare relative things to conclude the relative truth of them compared to other relative things. Relative truth belongs to the worlds of duality. The only way to understand relative truth is by using the method of comparison. In these dualistic worlds, we must compare two points, two conditions, two teachings, two people, or two events in order to come to a solid understanding of the relative truth of them. We learn by comparison and we teach by comparison. For example, the average person is living, which is a reality, but while living they are dreaming all the time and a dream is not a reality. Yet dreaming can be transformed in to reasonable thinking, which is a reality. Now, as we seek to know the relative truth, we have two points of comparison –dreaming and clear thinking. As we progress in this study of the relative truth we will advance to being able to compare three, four or more points.

 

...

 

Up to this point, our experiences of the light of truth have been necessarily dualistic. In each of the previous phases, our approach to truth has had a subject and object orientation. We are the subject, and truth has been the object of our search. This is a dualistic condition. However, Absolute Truth is not dualistic. When we begin to experience the higher states of Truth, we soon realize that the seeker is actually what is being sought and that the light of truth sought for is, was, and will always be the seeker’s Divine Nature. However, with virtually all our attention focused through our five senses on the outer world and not the inner, we miss this fundamental fact.

 

 

Good for you for not jumping into the deep end first and drowning. Without a close examination of duality, there is no foundation on which to build.

 

[dawei]

The interesting question is how that is possible at all.

 

Nope, long distance healing does not require merging.

 

The energy can be channeled through what some call the divine web, the web that connects all us.

 

I view the 'connects all us' as how it is possible.  When our space overlaps or is shared it is because our sense of space has merged.   This is a very subtle level of 'merge' but I include it as it is a moment of no separation.

 

I accept that others might not call this even a subtle merge.

[Tibetan_Ice]

I like this :http://www.dharmadownload.net/pages/english/Natsok/0014_Leksheyling_teaching/leksheyling_teachings_0012.htm

 

Jonesboy,

What exactly are you implying by quoting this version of Vajrayana?

 

Do you think that the yidam is actually invoking the "external" deity? Is that what you and Jeff believe?

Do you believe that visualizing Jesus results in the real Tara or Jesus coming and visiting you or anyone you transmit this visualization to?

 

The yidam is just that, a visualization. Something constructed by your mind. If you think that you can visualize Heruka, Buddha, Vajrayogini or any other deity and that they come to your beckoned call, think again.

 

Here is an excerpt from Secrets of the Vajra World - Reginald Ray

 

The yidams are known as lha (deva in Sanskrit), meaning “deity.” This raises an important question: to what extent is the yidam an external deity like the deities of other religions? This is a particularly critical question in view of the avowed “nontheism” of Buddhism in Tibet as elsewhere. In one way, the yidam is very like our usual understanding of deity in the sense that it manifests to us as an external being coming from the “other world” who embodies reality itself. But in another, more basic sense, the yidam is clearly not a purely external being because, seen on a deeper level, it is a configuration of our own awareness.

 

So if you and Jeff can prove to me that you are in true reality calling the external deity, the being that is not you, and that you can make them perform your circus tricks, good luck with that. I don't believe you at all.

 

What you are doing is misrepresenting your abilities to the public, it is a form of delusion. What you are doing is creating a thought form on the astral plane and then mistaking that personal thought form for the "real thing".

 

That is not to say that visualization is not a good thing.

 

According to Daskalos from Swimming With The Whale:

 

Chapter Seventeen LIFE IN THE HIGHER WORLDS The material world is Mind matter. Mind solid is matter. In the Psychical World we have Mind substance. The substance of the Mind can be formulated much more easily by thought of a man or an Archangel than the material we have on the material plane. Of course, we can formulate matter. We can take stones, Earth, water, and create (according to our mind) our constructions. But, it is not very easy to do so using the mind, the thought, the hands, or the machinery to make what we want. In the Psychical planes everything is much easier. Thought creates!

 

You'll find out and you will see when you develop your self-consciousness in the Psychical Body, that the Psychical Worlds are more real than the material world, because you can use concentration and observation there in a much better way than you do through the material brain. So, in the Psychical Worlds we have the environment created by the Holly Archangels, which is very, very lovely. Even the places we call hells. What are hells? They are very similar to the hells we have on the material plane. Instead of having a very lovely landscape men poison it. It is the same with a man being closed up in his thoughts, in a hell of his own. ~ Daskalos

 

...

 

So place is the condition you think you are living in. Everything there is created by your thought. Now maybe you can see why we stress the importance of visualization. When you achieve good skills of being able to visualize clearly and steadily, you do not realize it yet, but it is like you are becoming wealthy. In the worlds beyond, visualization means having. So it is best to learn it now before crossing over. Virtually everyone on Earth would have preferred to be born into a very wealthy family. If you pass over to the higher worlds with a developed skill of visualization skill, it is like being born wealthy there.

 

Being able to visualize means you are mastering the light. You need practice over time. Truly the benefit of being able to visualize well is greater than getting any amount of money. Material wealth does not mean a lot because you have no need of currency when you pass over. But the skill of visualization travels with you in to all the Worlds of existence. It becomes yours; once you get it, no person or thing can take it away like can happen with material things. So it is very important for our life on Earth and in the worlds beyond that we learn to visualize.

 

To develop the skill of visualization it is fundamental that you are able concentrate your mind well. Then you need to learn the right meditations, which develop good visualization skills. With meditation and visualization you enter into the reality of things and not just your imagination or dreams. With the skill of visualization we are able to use the Mind in a higher way, as Creative Thought, which is very powerful. Thought is more powerful in the worlds beyond and visualization is the way we can harness the power of thought. It is important that we learn how to visualize the colored lights, which are specific frequencies of energies. So visualization gives us a means of using these energies to help ourselves and other people.

 

Learning visualizations of light, colors and forms also leads you towards Self-Realization. This is because, we first do it sub-consciously, then Self-Consciously and one day Super-Consciously. In the beginning you sub-consciously start to wonder who I am that can do these visualizations and in time that line of investigation leads to Self-Realization. Self-Realization means to find your Self not just as a personality but as the Soul-Self and then as the Spirit-Soul Self.

 

 

Not only is the power of visualization necessary in Daskalos' method of healing, he stresses the importance of visualization throughout the entire book.

 

With such a great emphasis on visualization, it is easy to see that the higher Buddhist teachings have built visualization practices right into yidam practice, guru yoga, concentrative meditations, Visudhimagga practices etc.. for a reason.

 

However, no matter how good a visualization is, it should not be misconstrued as merging into or calling a being that is separate, external from yourself. For, that is a form of delusion.

Edited December 16, 2015 by Tibetan_Ice

[Jonesboy]

Edited December 16, 2015 by Jonesboy

[Jeff]

Jonesboy,

What exactly are you implying by quoting this version of Vajrayana?

Do you think that the yidam is actually invoking the "external" deity? Is that what you and Jeff believe?

Do you believe that visualizing Jesus results in the real Tara or Jesus coming and visiting you or anyone you transmit this visualization to?

The yidam is just that, a visualization. Something constructed by your mind. If you think that you can visualize Heruka, Buddha, Vajrayogini or any other deity and that they come to your beckoned call, think again.

Here is an excerpt from Secrets of the Vajra World - Reginald Ray

So if you and Jeff can prove to me that you are in true reality calling the external deity, the being that is not you, and that you can make them perform your circus tricks, good luck with that. I don't believe you at all.

What you are doing is misrepresenting your abilities to the public, it is a form of delusion. What you are doing is creating a thought form on the astral plane and then mistaking that personal thought form for the "real thing".

That is not to say that visualization is not a good thing.

According to Daskalos from Swimming With The Whale:

Not only is the power of visualization necessary in Daskalos' method of healing, he stresses the importance of visualization throughout the entire book.

With such a great emphasis on visualization, it is easy to see that the higher Buddhist teachings have built visualization practices right into yidam practice, guru yoga, concentrative meditations, Visudhimagga practices etc.. for a reason.

However, no matter how good a visualization is, it should not be misconstrued as merging into or calling a being that is separate, external from yourself. For, that is a form of delusion.

 

Hi TI,

 

This is getting increasingly silly. If you have questions for me, please direct them to me rather than ask Tom to speak or answer on topics for me. You may be a huge fan of Daskalos, but as I have repeatedly stated, what you and he are describing are vastly different than was Jesus describes as "light" in the bible.

 

His statement of "Being able to visualize means you are mastering the light." is a perfect example of how much we seem to disagree. The light (of God) is not something that you make up or imagine in your mind. The light (of God) is beyond local mind. What Daskalos is describing is simple mental energy and I am sure every member of this forum can already visualize as he describes.

 

One realizes by stopping the imagining, by letting go, by residing...

 

Since you don't seem to like any quotes from the gospels on it, here are my words on the simple path...

 

This body of ours is fleeting,

Like a leaf blowing free in a strong wind.

This mind of ours is empty and clear,

Like the depth of open space.

 

Relax in that natural state,

Free of any attempted support.

When mind is without any fabrication,

That is the primordial light.

 

Becoming familiar with this,

Merging your mind with it—

That is Christhood.

 

Best regards,

Jeff

[Tibetan_Ice]

[Tibetan_Ice]

Hi TI,This is getting increasingly silly. If you have questions for me, please direct them to me rather than ask Tom to speak or answer on topics for me. You may be a huge fan of Daskalos, but as I have repeatedly stated, what you and he are describing are vastly different than was Jesus describes as "light" in the bible.His statement of "Being able to visualize means you are mastering the light." is a perfect example of how much we seem to disagree. The light (of God) is not something that you make up or imagine in your mind. The light (of God) is beyond local mind. What Daskalos is describing is simple mental energy and I am sure every member of this forum can already visualize as he describes.One realizes by stopping the imagining, by letting go, by residing... Since you don't seem to like any quotes from the gospels on it, here are my words on the simple path...This body of ours is fleeting,Like a leaf blowing free in a strong wind.This mind of ours is empty and clear,Like the depth of open space.Relax in that natural state,Free of any attempted support.When mind is without any fabrication,That is the primordial light.Becoming familiar with this,Merging your mind with it—That is Christhood.Best regards,Jeff

Don't give me that bullshit. You never answer my questions.

Being able to master the light is mastering astral psychical light. He does not say that that is God's light.

Nice poem. Kind of a mishmash of teachings though. Mixing the term primordial light with Christhood.

And how do you relax and let go when you are trying to merge with it? Contradiction of terms and efforts.

 

This is how Daskalos describes the highest attainment. Awareness, not light.

 

Seventh Level of Consciousness:

 

Self-Super-Consciousness

 

Beyond the level of Self-Consciousness there is the Self Super-Consciousness.

 

Self-Super-Consciousness means total awareness within the Worlds of Existence (past and present) as well as total awareness in the realms of Beingness. Self-Super-Consciousness goes beyond the limiting concepts of time, space or place of the three Worlds of Existence. Super-Consciousness is beyond any person’s ability to describe in words yet it is the intrinsic characteristic of our Spirit-Soul-Self and the ultimate state of consciousness of every Spirit Being.

 

Super-Consciousness is also called Christ Consciousness and is the highest state of consciousness as it is based on true archetypal ideas. Whereas; the various states of ordinary consciousness are constructed with the relative ideas held in one’s mind. The self-consciousness of humanity has a wide range; from deep ignorance with very little light of knowledge, all the way up to the most luminous states of knowledge and wisdom. Self-Super-Consciousness is Total Awareness in both existence and in the state of Beingness.

 

In Christianity, this is known as “Theosis” and in eastern schools it is known as God Consciousness. It is full At-One-Ment with God the Absolute Infinite Beingness. It is the long awaited return of the Prodigal Son to his loving father. What lies beyond this is so magnificent that no human being can adequately describe it.

 

Edited December 16, 2015 by Tibetan_Ice

[Apech]

I feel the elephant in the room here may be the actual practice that Jeff, Jonesboy and others are referring to in making their comparisons to both Buddhist tantric yidam practice and Christian apocryphal mysticism.

 

I they could explain in precise terms what it is they do to 'merge' or whatever then it would give the rest of us a chance to comment - rather than dancing around the loose terminology.

[Jonesboy]

Oh please. Do you even understand what is written there?

What was written there is the same that I quoted from Reginald Ray's book.

 

From that same book you quoted :

 

 

You don't seem to understand what is written there.

It is basically the same thing that I quoted from Secrets of the Vajra. The yidam deity is a mind construct, that when you realize its essence, you realize the emptiness of mind. You realize it's impermanence, lack of intrinsic nature, lack of self. It is a start to realizing the three kayas.

 

And again, you claim you don't visualize...

Let's have look at what follows your quote from Padmasambhava:

 

Visualize, instructions for visualizing, more visualizing... Gee, you claim you don't visualize and the you try to justify your claim from a section of text that is the penultimate instructions on visualization.

 

And even if you wanted to skip the visualization process, as Padmasambhava claims, he still says that it is still only in your own mind:

 

 

Notice, it is not in "everyone's one mind", nor is it in "someone else's mind", he said "your own mind". If there was only one mind, then when Buddha became enlightened, we all would have become enlightened.

 

Not much point in talking to you.. Anybody can point to advanced teachings and say "see, that is what I do". It is only a rare few who have the right to say that. Rare. Very rare.

One of the rare few just stood up and said hi.

 

Hi.

 

I really don't get where you are going with your own mind stuff. Are you saying it is impossible to touch another's mind?

 

This is getting old.

 

Same attacks just a different thread.

Edited December 16, 2015 by Jonesboy

[Jeff]

Don't give me that bullshit. You never answer my questions.

Being able to master the light is mastering astral psychical light. He does not say that that is God's light.

Nice poem. Kind of a mishmash of teachings though. Mixing the term primordial light with Christhood.

And how do you relax and let go when you are trying to merge with it? Contradiction of terms and efforts.

This is how Daskalos describes the highest attainment. Awareness, not light.

 

TI,

 

I have repeatedly answered your questions, both in the words of Jesus in the gospels and my own. We just seem to disagree, it is as simple as that. The instructions that I wrote in the previous post is the simplest form of what I teach and directly show.

 

The more detailed version of the teachings can be found in the words of the gospel of Thomas and Jesus in the gospel.

 

Best wishes,

Jeff

[Jeff]

I feel the elephant in the room here may be the actual practice that Jeff, Jonesboy and others are referring to in making their comparisons to both Buddhist tantric yidam practice and Christian apocryphal mysticism.

 

I they could explain in precise terms what it is they do to 'merge' or whatever then it would give the rest of us a chance to comment - rather than dancing around the loose terminology.

 

There is no need to compare to the Buddhist tantric Yidam practice. The practices may be similar in description, but contain some fundamental differences. I think part of the challenge has been with the word "merge" itself and the concept of more "oneness" with all has been lost.

[Bindi]

There is no need to compare to the Buddhist tantric Yidam practice. The practices may be similar in description, but contain some fundamental differences. I think part of the challenge has been with the word "merge" itself and the concept of more "oneness" with all has been lost.

 

Jeff, you seem to change your story depending on which way the wind is blowing. Today, there's "no need to compare to the Buddhist tantric Yidam practice."

 

Yet in August, Buddhist tantric Yidam practice was a valuable part of your 'teaching'.

 

 

Posted 23 August 

 

... Energetic/tantric consort practice happens at the levels of the capacity of the partners, so picking the appropriate partner is important… Merging with various Buddhas/Gods (buddhis Yidam practices), combined with consort practices (or Dakini) practices will make it even faster.

 

Happy to help or "introduce" you to some partner beings some time.

 

… The consort/dakini practice creates a joint purification loop between the two parties. The loop (and energy) flows through all levels/layers that the two can support. Issues, fears, and obstructions are "hit" by the flowing energies. If they are released, the obstruction energy structures are cleared and leads to the resulting expansion.

 

Either separately or jointly with above on can do Yidam/merging practices with divine beings. This is more like shining a bright light on the obstructions. In my experience, combining the two can be extremely effective.

 

…The practices that I have described above are part of the teachings of Jesus. In Christianity, the joint purification loop that I have described is called communion. The body and blood are the two components. The body symbolizes form (earthly reception), the blood symbolizes spirit (divine transmission).

 

http://community.livingunbound.net/index.php?/topic/479-this-is-unbelievable/&page=2