Beyond the spiritual heart

[3bob]

I wouldn't be a 100% sure about Swami Muktananda... there is some stuff on the web where some of his students had some revealing accounts about hin'

[Bindi]

I wouldn't be a 100% sure about Swami Muktananda... there is some stuff on the web where some of his students had some revealing accounts about hin'

 

So then the question that springs to my mind is is it possible to achieve very high levels of self-realisation and still be abusive in any way? 

 

Perhaps it is possible to reach high levels, but not an ultimate level, as abusive behaviour cannot exist at the highest level of attainment. 

[dawei]

So then the question that springs to my mind is is it possible to achieve very high levels of self-realisation and still be abusive in any way? 

 

Perhaps it is possible to reach high levels, but not an ultimate level, as abusive behaviour cannot exist at the highest level of attainment. 

 

Interesting point  

 

Seems this ties into the Zen story about (1) Mountains are Mountains; (2) then not Mountains; (3) then once again are Mountains.  

 

If one gets stuck in their own 'high level of self-realization' at the (2) second stage then their spiritual factor has lost the humanity factor... 

[dwai]

I have been wondering for many months about the precedence of the ‘inner heart’ or ‘spiritual heart’ in various philosophies, and came across this article today which gives me a possible answer to my question, ‘is there a spiritual location beyond the spiritual heart.’ According to Muktananda, there is, and it is located in the crown…

 

 

Swami Muktananda regarded the stable visualization of the "blue pearl" to be the primary evidence of supreme realization.

The Blue Pearl concept is interesting. My first full blown spiritual experience was an out of body type one. I witnessed a blue egg, an electric blue egg in darkness of space. It spun around and I kept seeing the Buddha and Krishna transposing into each other as the egg spun around. It spun faster and faster and then exploded. As it exploded, I saw the universe being created...stars and galaxies flying by me...

[dawei]

The Blue Pearl concept is interesting. My first full blown spiritual experience was an out of body type one. I witnessed a blue egg, an electric blue egg in darkness of space. It spun around and I kept seeing the Buddha and Krishna transposing into each other as the egg spun around. It spun faster and faster and then exploded. As it exploded, I saw the universe being created...stars and galaxies flying by me...

 

could that be any better teaser to... "and then" ?   tell more

 

[Bindi]

At the ultimate level it is indescribable, but it doesn't mean all the other levels are indescribable. The worry I think is about getting too rigid about a particular description or map, or getting fixated on a particular manifestation rather than keeping on going. The advantages of creating a good description or map is that it can help relate to peoples experiences and help with things like healing and working out the fundamentals about the way things manifest. 

 

But then who has ever actually gotten to this ultimate and indescribable level? I just don't think anyone has, certainly not recently, no matter what they may claim, and how indescribably they claim it. Maybe its not actually indescribable.The only person i feel safe suggesting is JC, and he seemed to be able to describe it pretty well, pretty down to earth, and not lost for words.

[Bindi]

Interesting point  

 

Seems this ties into the Zen story about (1) Mountains are Mountains; (2) then not Mountains; (3) then once again are Mountains.  

 

If one gets stuck in their own 'high level of self-realization' at the (2) second stage then their spiritual factor has lost the humanity factor... 

Seems like a good way to look at it. I do gather that the ego trap is there to the end, always waiting...

[Bindi]

The Blue Pearl concept is interesting. My first full blown spiritual experience was an out of body type one. I witnessed a blue egg, an electric blue egg in darkness of space. It spun around and I kept seeing the Buddha and Krishna transposing into each other as the egg spun around. It spun faster and faster and then exploded. As it exploded, I saw the universe being created...stars and galaxies flying by me...

Did it have an impact on your life, or at least on your spiritual direction?

[3bob]

the Bible is written as a dualistic teaching, some may be able to say their interpretation of it is not dualistic but for a very high percentage of us that have studied it - we can't really justify saying it's a non-dualistic teaching - thus that is it's limit as far as its accepted doctrine goes.  (with a heaven or hell forever scenario, along with some variations of purgatory. etc.)  This core of dualistic teaching runs throughout the New Testament  although with a forgiving and compassionate Jesus.  So one might ask why Jesus didn't correct this dualistic teaching in doctrine when He had a chance to with His Apostle's around 2000+ years ago if that is where He is ultimately coming from?  (in comparison to non-dualistic teachings which also existed during his human lifetime)

[Jonesboy]

 

the Bible is written as a dualistic teaching,

That is very true.

 

It was written hundreds of years after the resurrection of Jesus by the church.

 

Here is a great article:

 

 

Why a Hindu Accepts Christ

and Rejects Churchianity

 

By Swami Abhedananda

(A direct disciple of Sri Ramakrishna Paramhansa)

 

A Hindu distinguishes the religion of the churches from the religion of Jesus Christ. Speaking from the Hindu standpoint, the religion that the churches uphold and preach today, that has been built around the personality of Jesus the Christ, and which is popularly known as Christianity, should be called ‘Churchianity’, in contradistinction to that pure religion of the heart that was taught by Jesus the Christ and practised by his disciples. The religion of Christ or true Christianity had no dogma, no creed, no system, and no theology. It was a religion of the heart, a religion without any ceremonial, without ritual, without priest-craft. It was not based upon any book, but upon the feelings of the heart, upon direct communion of the individual soul with the heavenly Father. On the contrary, the religion of the church is based upon a book, believes in dogmas, professes a creed, has an organized system for preaching it, is backed up by theologies, performs rituals, practises ceremonials, and obeys the commands of a host of priests.

 

The popular history of churchianity begins from 325 years after Christ, the 20th year of the reign of Constantine the Great, when the famous Council was convened at the City of Nocea. Those who have read the life of this august Roman Emperor will remember how remarkable was the character of this so called pious supporter of the church dogmas. He put to death his own son and his wife Fausta on groundless suspicion, cut off his brother-in-law Licinius and the unoffending son of Licinius and massacred everyone of his rivals. Nevertheless the Greek Church has canonized him, and adores the memory of St. Constantine.

 

It was Constantine the Great who issued a decree in 321 A.D., for the general observance of Sunday, instead of the Jewish Sabbath. He hated the Jews and everything connected with the Jews, and said: "This day shall be regarded as a special occasion of prayer, because it is the Sun’s day, the day of our Lord". Since that time, the church has accepted that decree, ignoring the fact that this was the day for the worship of the sun among the pagans

 

It was Constantine the great who decided what should be the creed of the church and commanded the assembled bishops to receive the decrees of the Council of Nicea as the dictates of the Holy Spirit. Since that time the church has given authenticity to that creed, which is repeated almost every Sunday in all the orthodox churches in Christendom.

 

The horrifying accounts of fraud, political wire pulling, theological jugglery, ecclesiastical scandal-mongering, passions breaking forth into curses and anathemas, bloody massacres and inhuman assassinations in the ecumenical councils, show that these were the principal instruments in the building up of the creed of Churchianity. Readers of ecclesiastical history will remember that in one of the disputes following the great Council of Nicea, maidens were insulted and scourged, the holy temple was profaned, books were thrown into flames, and the church and baptistery were burned and monks were trodden under foot. Such were the deeds of the pious bishops and founders of Churchianity.

 

In the Council of Ephesus, which was held in 431 A.D., monks and bishops screamed: "Whoso speaks of two natures is a Nestorius, and let him be cut asunder". A bishop was kicked to death by another bishop in course of their arguments, and 137 corpses were left in a church to attest the convincing reasons by which the most ruffian side proved its orthodoxy.

 

 

For more of the article: http://www.hinduism.co.za/jesus.htm

Edited December 3, 2015 by Jonesboy

[Bindi]

 

the Bible is written as a dualistic teaching, some may be able to say their interpretation of it is not dualistic but for a very high percentage of us that have studied it - we can't really justify saying it's a non-dualistic teaching - thus that is it's limit as far as its accepted doctrine goes.  (with a heaven or hell forever scenario, along with some variations of purgatory. etc.)  This core of dualistic teaching runs throughout the New Testament  although with a forgiving and compassionate Jesus.  So one might ask why Jesus didn't correct this dualistic teaching in doctrine when He had a chance to with His Apostle's around 2000+ years ago if that is where He is ultimately coming from?  (in comparison to non-dualistic teachings which also existed during his human lifetime)

Your question assumes the dualistic doctrine of the New Testament is incorrect.

 

I personally don’t try to understand non-duality, nor do I seek non-duality, as I tend to keep my eyes fixed on the dualistic path that I am travelling. Whether non-dualism lies at the end of this road or not I can’t say right now, so whether the dualistic teaching of the Bible needed correcting or not I don’t know, though I could probably come up with an opinion.

 

Is non-dualism correct, or merely fashionable? Is there any merit in dualistic thought, or is it hopelessly ignorant?

[Nikolai1]

Bindi you are right not to place non-duality above duality. Both are the same.

To see one as higher is a grave error. It means we are still falling for one-sided interpretations of experience.

[Jeff]

Bindi you are right not to place non-duality above duality. Both are the same.

To see one as higher is a grave error. It means we are still falling for one-sided interpretations of experience.

 

Yes, as the Heart Sutra says... Emptiness = Form and Form = Emptiness. If one only pays attention to one side of the side of the equation, they will not find the "narrow gate".

[3bob]

for me dualistic teachings will not attain the "highest realization" you have been speaking of, since by nature they are dualistic and limited in that way, thus if you believe a dualistic way will get you to or is of the highest realization that is fine and there is no need for those of such beliefs to continue on with speculations regarding various eastern teachings, chakra's, blue seeds and all the rest...

Edited December 3, 2015 by 3bob

[3bob]

btw, non-duality doesn't reject the place of duality per-se, it just moves on from there...

[Bindi]

btw, non-duality doesn't reject the place of duality per-se, it just moves on from there...

 

I am travelling the path of duality, which is the only path i find available, and authentic experience of non-duality may happen at some point. Then my answer would be very different of course. 

[Jeff]

btw, non-duality doesn't reject the place of duality per-se, it just moves on from there...

 

"Moves on from there"... Does that not imply that there is somewhere to go?

 

Maybe some words of Jesus on the point...

 

Luke 17: 20-21

20 Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; 21 nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”

 

[Nikolai1]

Non-duality and duality aren't paths. They are interpretations of pure spiritual experience of the divine. To talk about meeting God or becoming one with God are the same. One doesn't build upon or enhance the other.

[Bindi]

That is very true.

 

It was written hundreds of years after the resurrection of Jesus by the church.

 

Here is a great article:

 

 

Why a Hindu Accepts Christ

and Rejects Churchianity

 

By Swami Abhedananda

(A direct disciple of Sri Ramakrishna Paramhansa)

 

A Hindu distinguishes the religion of the churches from the religion of Jesus Christ. Speaking from the Hindu standpoint, the religion that the churches uphold and preach today, that has been built around the personality of Jesus the Christ, and which is popularly known as Christianity, should be called ‘Churchianity’, in contradistinction to that pure religion of the heart that was taught by Jesus the Christ and practised by his disciples. The religion of Christ or true Christianity had no dogma, no creed, no system, and no theology. It was a religion of the heart, a religion without any ceremonial, without ritual, without priest-craft. It was not based upon any book, but upon the feelings of the heart, upon direct communion of the individual soul with the heavenly Father. On the contrary, the religion of the church is based upon a book, believes in dogmas, professes a creed, has an organized system for preaching it, is backed up by theologies, performs rituals, practises ceremonials, and obeys the commands of a host of priests.

 

The popular history of churchianity begins from 325 years after Christ, the 20th year of the reign of Constantine the Great, when the famous Council was convened at the City of Nocea. Those who have read the life of this august Roman Emperor will remember how remarkable was the character of this so called pious supporter of the church dogmas. He put to death his own son and his wife Fausta on groundless suspicion, cut off his brother-in-law Licinius and the unoffending son of Licinius and massacred everyone of his rivals. Nevertheless the Greek Church has canonized him, and adores the memory of St. Constantine.

 

It was Constantine the Great who issued a decree in 321 A.D., for the general observance of Sunday, instead of the Jewish Sabbath. He hated the Jews and everything connected with the Jews, and said: "This day shall be regarded as a special occasion of prayer, because it is the Sun’s day, the day of our Lord". Since that time, the church has accepted that decree, ignoring the fact that this was the day for the worship of the sun among the pagans

 

It was Constantine the great who decided what should be the creed of the church and commanded the assembled bishops to receive the decrees of the Council of Nicea as the dictates of the Holy Spirit. Since that time the church has given authenticity to that creed, which is repeated almost every Sunday in all the orthodox churches in Christendom.

 

The horrifying accounts of fraud, political wire pulling, theological jugglery, ecclesiastical scandal-mongering, passions breaking forth into curses and anathemas, bloody massacres and inhuman assassinations in the ecumenical councils, show that these were the principal instruments in the building up of the creed of Churchianity. Readers of ecclesiastical history will remember that in one of the disputes following the great Council of Nicea, maidens were insulted and scourged, the holy temple was profaned, books were thrown into flames, and the church and baptistery were burned and monks were trodden under foot. Such were the deeds of the pious bishops and founders of Churchianity.

 

In the Council of Ephesus, which was held in 431 A.D., monks and bishops screamed: "Whoso speaks of two natures is a Nestorius, and let him be cut asunder". A bishop was kicked to death by another bishop in course of their arguments, and 137 corpses were left in a church to attest the convincing reasons by which the most ruffian side proved its orthodoxy.

 

 

For more of the article: http://www.hinduism.co.za/jesus.htm

 

Jesus himself  was thoroughly steeped in Judaism, with Judaic dogma, Judaic creed, Judaic system, and Judaic theology. The bible presumably erased much of the Judaism, and imposed church doctrine. 

 

 

Matthew 5:18 KJV: For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

[Jetsun]

The only way to understand non-duality is to experience it. The only way to experience it is to refine, refine, refine your chi.

 

 

That's not the only way.

 

When Jesus said "be still and know that I am God" that is pointer to non-duality. Ramana Maharshi used to say his main teaching was in stillness, so stillness is a path. If you don't get stillness another path is enquiry, enquiry into who you really are, or you could enquire into what stillness really is. 

 

The thing about non-duality isn't that it is difficult or hard to obtain, it is that it is so simple everyone misses it. The Shangpa Kagyu Buddhist tradition says that we fail to recognise it because it is:

 

So close you can't see it 

So subtle your mind can't understand it

So simple you can't believe it

So good you can't accept it

[Jeff]

 

Jesus himself  was thoroughly steeped in Judaism, with Judaic dogma, Judaic creed, Judaic system, and Judaic theology. The bible presumably erased much of the Judaism, and imposed church doctrine. 

 

 

Matthew 5:18 KJV: For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

 

The teachings of Jesus are very much about a new "covenant"(understanding/realization). He often uses the new wine and wineskin example.  A more specific reference to the point below...

 

2 Corinthians - 3:12-18

12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:

13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

[Jonesboy]

 

Jesus himself  was thoroughly steeped in Judaism, with Judaic dogma, Judaic creed, Judaic system, and Judaic theology. The bible presumably erased much of the Judaism, and imposed church doctrine. 

 

 

Matthew 5:18 KJV: For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

I completely agree with you in regard to the church imposing their doctrine.

 

I think this shows what Jesus thought about the church.

 

88. Jesus said, "The messengers and the prophets will come to you and give you what belongs to you. You, in turn, give them what you have, and say to yourselves, 'When will they come and take what belongs to them?'

[3bob]

Bud, that "be still" quote was not from Jesus, it is from Psalm 46, long before Jesus was around and given by the "Father" aspect of God in Judaeo pre-Christianity to the writer of Psalms - thus not by the Son aspect in Christianity - along with the fact that Jesus never claimed to take the place of the "Father" during His time on earth!

Edited December 3, 2015 by dawei

[dawei]

Bud, that "be still" quote was not from Jesus, it is from Psalm 46, long before Jesus was around and given by the "Father" aspect of God in Judaeo pre-Christianity to the writer of Psalms - thus not by the Son aspect in Christianity - along with the fact that Jesus never claimed to take the place of the "Father" during His time on earth!

 

 

sorry 3Bob... I 'edited' instead of replied and lost your quote of Bud in your post... 

 

 

but I wanted to say regarding the pre-existence of Christ:

 

 

What about his time before his time on earth?

 

Jesus said, “And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began” (John 17:5) 

 

 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” (John 8:58)

 

Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? (John 6:62)

 

He said to them, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. (John 8:23)

 

the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest to us (1 John 1:2)

[dwai]

Did it have an impact on your life, or at least on your spiritual direction?

Yes it did. At the time when I had this experience, I was going through severe difficulty...struggling to finish school, my father passed away a few years earlier, my girlfriend (now wife) having surgery for cancer.  After this event, I somehow knew, that everything was going to be alright. And things did change for the better...

 

Since then, I've had several experiences that have not only re-ignited my devotion and passion for practice but also shown me the power of mantras, of belief and spiritual power.