Beyond the spiritual heart

[3bob]

Yes, the endless round about ways of wondering about Bible verses... One might ask if Jesus meant the "Christ" thus more than just the soul of an individual in your question Dawei.  Besides the human and inner life of Jesus would have all been fake (namely the trials and temptations) if He had not had the power of choice in the Garden of Gethsemane and in many other times and places given as examples of Jesus the soul. (whereas I'd say "Christ" itself is like a force or principle that does not have a choice to be otherwise)

 

The redemption of soul is pure and divine, "Forgive them Father they know not what they do"

Edited December 3, 2015 by 3bob

[Jetsun]

So we disagree.

 

RM's enquiry method is an intellectual. Developing the spirit goes beyond the intellect.

 

Sitting is good. But takes a long time. And can be varied if you are working with a guru. Not all gurus have the same spiritual development.

 

Chi development (in an upward trajectory) is, as I posted to a reply to gatito in another thread today, a good way to delve into the 'mystery' of the universe.

 

I don't think Ramana's enquiry is meant to be intellectual even though many take it that way, the question is asked by the mind but the sense of I is meant to be tracked as a sense, a sense in the body or you could even say energetically, ultimately it is tracked to the inner spiritual heart, beyond that it breaks down. But his method isn't about developing the spirit but about seeing through the mistaken identity or mistaken sense of individuality. Yet it's true many thousands have tried to practice his path without the Guru present without success.

 

But in terms of being in the results game in my own experience over the last few years I have seen that the combination of meditation and enquiry along with the bridging of an awake teacher in retreats can be a potent combination, many hundreds of people are having experiences of non-duality and awakening out of their sense of individuality this way, I have seen it myself. 

[Jonesboy]

 

It is the unlimited chi/energy that can break through the limited mind.

 

What about the idea of realizing they are one and the same?

[Jetsun]

Even if it is tracked as a sense, senses are limited. Spirit is not.

 

 

I have highlighted your statement and assert that it is written backwards.

 

In truth, the cultivation path is to see "through the mistaken identity or mistaken sense of individuality" by "developing the spirit"! 

 

It is the unlimited chi/energy that can break through the limited mind.

 

If RM's practice is not about developing the spirit, I can only suggest that it is a limited practice. If you find his practice (or similar practices) helpful, OK.

 

But the point is that if you track the sense of identity you find the source, not just the source of identity but the source of energy and spirit, any sense of limitation including the sense of limited senses breaks down. There is no need to break through the limited mind, you can just see the truth of it and everything returns to order. For some all it can take is a few moments of genuine stillness for the truth of it to be revealed and for the core sense of a separate self to break down.

 

But if the spirit is unlimited how can it be developed? and if it is a personal individual spirit which is being developed then it is a spirit which still exists in separation consciousness and therefore must be under the influence of subtle levels of egoity and therefore not in complete freedom or complete awakeness. To allow in the energy of the unlimited spirit is more about emptying than refining in my experience. 

[Bindi]

for me dualistic teachings will not attain the "highest realization" you have been speaking of, since by nature they are dualistic and limited in that way, thus if you believe a dualistic way will get you to or is of the highest realization that is fine and there is no need for those of such beliefs to continue on with speculations regarding various eastern teachings, chakra's, blue seeds and all the rest...

 

The path towards the blue pearl (through nadi's and within chakras) is through the causal and supra causal states, neither of which are non-dual states.

 

And I would propose that "the point of pure Consciousness within each individual that is the core of our true identity" (the siddhayoga definition of the blue pearl) is not non-duality, but a 'refined' experience of duality.

[Jetsun]

Spirit is unlimited once you refine your chi. In actuality, spirit is potentially unlimited. It takes time and energy to work towards chi freedom. Individually, one works to become an unlimited spirit by expanding their chi body through chi refinement. It would not be inaccurate to say that at the same time that one is a unique spirit (separate from other unique spirits), one is also connected to everything else in the universe.

 

I realize I am using Taoist terms in a non-taoist thread. I will refrain from saying more at this time. And allow the discussion to return to the OP's topics.

 

Ok I will try not to derail this thread further either, but I understand the approach of many Taoist schools, that you build up energy bodies and refine it to a higher vibration so that it can overcome the mind, but that isn't the way it always has to go. Take for example the case of Adyashanti, he had his main spiritual breakthrough in his early 20's through combining Zen meditation and enquiry, but after the awakening his energetic bodies started to develop as the pure spirit of the universe poured into and through his body, he had many difficult energetic periods after that. But the key point is that it occurred as a result of the awakening rather than being the cause of it, he didn't do anything intentionally to develop or refine his energy body, the development occurred naturally afterwards as a product of seeing through the false identity and awakening as awareness.

[Bindi]

 

...

I realize I am using Taoist terms in a non-taoist thread. I will refrain from saying more at this time. And allow the discussion to return to the OP's topics.

Ok I will try not to derail this thread further either...

 

 

This thread was put into general discussion on purpose, I wish to reply to an earlier Christian post myself - please feel free to discuss from any POV 

[Bindi]

The teachings of Jesus are very much about a new "covenant"(understanding/realization). He often uses the new wine and wineskin example.  A more specific reference to the point below...

 

2 Corinthians - 3:12-18

12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:

13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

 

I don’t believe that Jesus ever suggested he had brought a new covenant that erased Judaism. "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. (Matthew 5:17)

 

I think Jesus brought a profound personal spirituality to Judaism, and that he tried to inject this personal spirituality into his religion. When he directly said or did anything that seemed to contradict Hebrew law, such as not fasting, or healing on the Sabbath, he wasn’t deliberately overturning the law, but he did have to justify his approach by reinterpreting the law to his followers and accusers, to allow for his compelling spiritual imperative. But Jesus would have believed that he was himself fulfilling Jewish law by following the spirit of the law, though clearly not always the plain letter of the law.

 

Jesus wouldn’t have seen himself as anything other than a devout Jew. The apostles would never have seen themselves as anything other than Jewish. The earliest followers of Jesus would have been Messianic Jews essentially.

 

Dispute about the place of Judaism within Christianity began after the death of Jesus, in the early Christian churches.

 

Passages written about Jesus, after his death, are more likely to have undergone ‘churchification’, and may well discount Judaism.

[3bob]

was cooking something up to say but I'm pooped after work so I'll have a Bud light for now.

Edited December 4, 2015 by 3bob

[Bearded Dragon]

Perhaps in different traditions the spiritual heart has no location, maybe it depends on what tradition you're coming from.

 

Nothing depends on tradition. It is as it is.

 

I think what you're referring to is sometimes called the heart-mind. It seems to be the last stop before the end of the line, so to speak. In terms of actually tracing things back I guess your intent can't be followed further than that.

 

What I was referring to was the heart of it all, or the center of it all. When you follow things back towards the source you find a lot of points that you're aware of, then you're aware that you're aware, then you're aware that you're aware of awareness, etc, then you realise that which you're trying to find actually can't be seen directly because if you see it then there is something ELSE that precedes it in order to be able to see. In other words you realise there is no point where it exists, because it's outside of the comprehension of the thinking mind.

 

The main point that I want to get across is this....

 

*I'm aware that I'm typing

*I'm aware that I'm aware of me typing

*I'm aware that I'm aware of me being aware of me typing

*I'm aware that I'm aware of me being aware of being aware of me typing

 

This is an infinite traceback. If you keep looking you'll just get stuck in this endless loop of searching. Real spiritual seeking is when you have the balls to give up on seeking.

[3bob]

who would forcefully deny another of learning the hard way if that is what it takes?

[Bindi]

Nothing depends on tradition. It is as it is.

 

... If you keep looking you'll just get stuck in this endless loop of searching. Real spiritual seeking is when you have the balls to give up on seeking.

 

Within the yoga system that I am coming to ascribe to, which I believe describes the subtle body and its energies accurately, to stop seeking would be to fall short, as this system is linear and progressive.

 

Never allow yourself to be complacent in your spiritual attainments. Always continue to strive. Even rishis, swâmîs and yogîs who have totally realized Paraßiva [absolute reality] continue to work on themselves from within themselves.

 

My original post was attempting to explore the realisation of the self in the crown chakra, beyond ‘the inner heart’. But there is further development beyond this point.

 

 

[After self-realisation] the golden body, svar∫aßarîra, is born through the merging of the forces of the pituitary and the pineal gland, setting the [crown chakra] into a constant spinning motion. This constant spinning motion generates the force which propels the yoga adept back into [a state of absolute nothingness]. Each time he goes into [this state of absolute nothingness] he intensifies a little the spinning movement of [the crown] chakra, unfolding it a little more, and as this occurs, the golden body begins to build.

 

http://www.himalayan...rging-with-siva

 

I believe Daoism refers to something similar with the formation and development of a golden body after the 3 Dan Tians have been filled. I recall reading this in a Daoist context - “when you see the golden man you are close”, but I couldn’t find where I read it again.

[3bob]

 

The path towards the blue pearl (through nadi's and within chakras) is through the causal and supra causal states, neither of which are non-dual states.

 

And I would propose that "the point of pure Consciousness within each individual that is the core of our true identity" (the siddhayoga definition of the blue pearl) is not non-duality, but a 'refined' experience of duality.

 

Bindi,  There is the teaching that the true identity is beyond categories - and which is sometimes alluded to as "the Soul of the soul".  Being beyond categories is to be beyond all individual based designs and motives - even the most extremely refined of such.

 

Om Shanti

Edited December 4, 2015 by 3bob

[allinone]

Nothing depends on tradition. It is as it is.

 

I think what you're referring to is sometimes called the heart-mind. It seems to be the last stop before the end of the line, so to speak. In terms of actually tracing things back I guess your intent can't be followed further than that.

 

What I was referring to was the heart of it all, or the center of it all. When you follow things back towards the source you find a lot of points that you're aware of, then you're aware that you're aware, then you're aware that you're aware of awareness, etc, then you realise that which you're trying to find actually can't be seen directly because if you see it then there is something ELSE that precedes it in order to be able to see. In other words you realise there is no point where it exists, because it's outside of the comprehension of the thinking mind.

 

The main point that I want to get across is this....

 

*I'm aware that I'm typing

*I'm aware that I'm aware of me typing

*I'm aware that I'm aware of me being aware of me typing

*I'm aware that I'm aware of me being aware of being aware of me typing

 

This is an infinite traceback. If you keep looking you'll just get stuck in this endless loop of searching. Real spiritual seeking is when you have the balls to give up on seeking.

 

you can also say and know that you weren't aware of being you typing. 

[allinone]

when you come aware then that awareness is going to disappear, it is not eternal.

[allinone]

Bindi,  There is the teaching that the true identity is beyond categories, being beyond categories is to be beyond all individual based designs and motives - even the most extremely refined of such,  sometimes alluded to as the "Soul of the soul".

 

Om Shanti

nonduality doesn't exist.

[3bob]

Jesus is a golden being. But the Ocean has no color unless clear is a color that becomes white

Edited December 4, 2015 by 3bob

[Jeff]

I don’t believe that Jesus ever suggested he had brought a new covenant that erased Judaism. "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. (Matthew 5:17)

I think Jesus brought a profound personal spirituality to Judaism, and that he tried to inject this personal spirituality into his religion. When he directly said or did anything that seemed to contradict Hebrew law, such as not fasting, or healing on the Sabbath, he wasn’t deliberately overturning the law, but he did have to justify his approach by reinterpreting the law to his followers and accusers, to allow for his compelling spiritual imperative. But Jesus would have believed that he was himself fulfilling Jewish law by following the spirit of the law, though clearly not always the plain letter of the law.

Jesus wouldn’t have seen himself as anything other than a devout Jew. The apostles would never have seen themselves as anything other than Jewish. The earliest followers of Jesus would have been Messianic Jews essentially.

Dispute about the place of Judaism within Christianity began after the death of Jesus, in the early Christian churches.

Passages written about Jesus, after his death, are more likely to have undergone ‘churchification’, and may well discount Judaism.

 

Jesus was very clear in his statements. He moved well beyond any previous understanding and tradition. His "one with the Father" and his description of the Holy Father was vastly different than as described in the Torah. But, God did not change, only the realization and understanding of one who had the clarity to know. The gospels and the old testement are two completely different books.

[Nikolai1]

It is clear that Jesus, despite his radical new truth, saw no real need to depart from the Mosaic Law, or even Caesar's law. 

 

It was his immediate successors (though not Paul)  who were unable to reconcile the new with the old.  It was either / or to them...and this shows their failure of understanding.  The same failure that we see Jesus lamenting in the Gospels.

[Bindi]

Jesus was very clear in his statements. He moved well beyond any previous understanding and tradition. His "one with the Father" and his description of the Holy Father was vastly different than as described in the Torah. But, God did not change, only the realization and understanding of one who had the clarity to know. The gospels and the old testement are two completely different books.

His personal relationship with the Father was new within Judaism, yes, and i would agree that his understanding went well beyond Jewish tradition. His understanding was quite unique. But this doesn't mean that he didn't identify himself as a Jew.

 

All i am debating here Jeff, are these sentences in Jonesboy's quote 'Why a Hindu Accepts Christ

and Rejects Churchianity' By Swami Abhedananda

 

 

The religion of Christ or true Christianity had no dogma, no creed, no system, and no theology. It was a religion of the heart, a religion without any ceremonial, without ritual, without priest-craft. It was not based upon any book, but upon the feelings of the heart, upon direct communion of the individual soul with the heavenly Father.

[Jeff]

His personal relationship with the Father was new within Judaism, yes, and i would agree that his understanding went well beyond Jewish tradition. His understanding was quite unique. But this doesn't mean that he didn't identify himself as a Jew.

All i am debating here Jeff, are these sentences in Jonesboy's quote 'Why a Hindu Accepts Christ

and Rejects Churchianity' By Swami Abhedananda

 

Then I would suggest that you debate that with him, as it is not my position.

 

Jesus taught a very clear path with many significant lineage refinements based on his "higher/clearer" realization.

[Nikolai1]

 Jesus taught a very clear path with many significant lineage refinements based on his "higher/clearer" realization.

What do you mean by lineage refinements?

[Bindi]

Then I would suggest that you debate that with him, as it is not my position. Jesus taught a very clear path with many significant lineage refinements based on his "higher/clearer" realization.

 

I'll try to lay it out for you Jeff.

 

Jonesboy said:

 

That is very true.

It was written hundreds of years after the resurrection of Jesus by the church.

Here is a great article:

Why a Hindu Accepts Christ

and Rejects Churchianity

By Swami Abhedananda

(A direct disciple of Sri Ramakrishna Paramhansa)

A Hindu distinguishes the religion of the churches from the religion of Jesus Christ. Speaking from the Hindu standpoint, the religion that the churches uphold and preach today, that has been built around the personality of Jesus the Christ, and which is popularly known as Christianity, should be called ‘Churchianity’, in contradistinction to that pure religion of the heart that was taught by Jesus the Christ and practised by his disciples. The religion of Christ or true Christianity had no dogma, no creed, no system, and no theology. It was a religion of the heart, a religion without any ceremonial, without ritual, without priest-craft. It was not based upon any book, but upon the feelings of the heart, upon direct communion of the individual soul with the heavenly Father. On the contrary, the religion of the church is based upon a book, believes in dogmas, professes a creed, has an organized system for preaching it, is backed up by theologies, performs rituals, practises ceremonials, and obeys the commands of a host of priests…

 

I said:

 

Jesus himself was thoroughly steeped in Judaism, with Judaic dogma, Judaic creed, Judaic system, and Judaic theology. The bible presumably erased much of the Judaism, and imposed church doctrine.

 

 

Matthew 5:18 KJV: For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

 

You Jeff, then responded to my post.

 

The teachings of Jesus are very much about a new "covenant"(understanding/realization). He often uses the new wine and wineskin example. A more specific reference to the point below...

Etc.

 

And I responded to yours, and so it went on.

 

So clearly you inserted yourself into this discussion, until i reminded you what it was we were disagreeing about, luckily, because apparently you had no idea.

 

But now that you have made it clear that you disagree with Jonesboy's article regarding Jesus's Judaism, i don't need to keep this futile argument going.

[Jonesboy]

It was an article on the view of the church Bindi.

 

It was not an article on the practices of Jesus.

 

I think you may have missed my and the entire point of the article.

 

The title kind of spells it out.

 

"Why a Hindu Accepts Christ

and Rejects Churchianity"

 

In our previous discussions you were talking about the church and Jesus. I shared an article on the hindu point of view of Jesus and the church.

 

You have been posting a lot on Yoga so I thought I would share.

 

All the best,

 

Tom

Edited December 4, 2015 by Jonesboy

[Jeff]

I'll try to lay it out for you Jeff.

Jonesboy said:

 

I said:

 

You Jeff, then responded to my post.

 

And I responded to yours, and so it went on.

So clearly you inserted yourself into this discussion, until i reminded you what it was we were disagreeing about, luckily, because apparently you had no idea.

But now that you have made it clear that you disagree with Jonesboy's article regarding Jesus's Judaism, i don't need to keep this futile argument going.

 

Sorry, I was not attempting to insert myself in your discussion with Jonesboy. Was just responding directly to you and your statement. I have not been really following all of this thread as you and I have already discussed the blue pearl concept in detail in another thread.