Beyond the spiritual heart

[MooNiNite]

i usually compare the blurry sphere of light with the current chakra that is being worked on. 

[Jeff]

What do you mean by lineage refinements?

 

There are many, but true communion is a good example. If you are interested, I have discussed some examples in many of the Christian mysticism type threads on the forum. Or maybe more broadly search on the word Jesus where I am the author to find some of the posts.

[allinone]

Back to the OP.

The description there is not final. There is more and more precise states, describing the same processes and more. He didn't mentioned that you can start again.

[allinone]

If i remember correctly there is 9 different yanas. All present a knowledge as special way to see how law works. 9th is that other ways are not wrong. Saying others are wrong is evil and leads to hell. 

[dwai]

His personal relationship with the Father was new within Judaism, yes, and i would agree that his understanding went well beyond Jewish tradition. His understanding was quite unique. But this doesn't mean that he didn't identify himself as a Jew.

 

All i am debating here Jeff, are these sentences in Jonesboy's quote 'Why a Hindu Accepts Christ

and Rejects Churchianity' By Swami Abhedananda

 

 

I am with you on this Bindi. I don't understand the need to extrapolate everything to Non-dualism. Some traditions are dualistic and it's okay, because that's their view. 

 

In Vedanta too, there is a popular and bona fide school called Dvaita Vedanta (dualistic interpretation of Vedanta). In this, there is no final realization that the Self/Atman is Brahman. There is the self and there is Brahman/God. The role of the self is to devote itself to the works of the Brahman and follow a righteous path (i'm boiling it down for sake of lucidity here).

 

When I was learning Siddhar Yoga, a young jewish lady came to learn it from my teacher. She said she taught "jewish yoga" to kids. And she would freeze and become angry everytime we talked about the Self being non-different from Brahman (here it was Shiva). It would create great conflict and cognitive dissonance in her. So much so that she seemed to have a psychological problem from it, where she would start pulling on her hair (literally) (my extrapolation here).

 

Why try to force a view onto others? It's okay if people want to be dualistic. If they feel comfort and solace in devotion and practice, under the premise that God is separate from the individual soul. 

 

I used to raise the hackles of many dualists (Gaudiya Vaishnavites such as the ISKCON folks) whenever we discussed Atman/Brahman. Problem is, most people discuss at the level of intellect. Not at the level of direct experience. And hence, conflict and arguments. 

[3bob]

your right Dwai, there can be no forcing of view... even if the Upanishads strongly point to non-dualism.

 

Btw Bindi, I'd say that the meaning of "Spirit" as the term is often used  - does not really care what form it can work through - and will take any course it can to do so being that such is its nature; not unlike the idea of water mentioned in Taoism where water takes its course. 

Edited December 4, 2015 by 3bob

[Bindi]

I am with you on this Bindi. I don't understand the need to extrapolate everything to Non-dualism. Some traditions are dualistic and it's okay, because that's their view. 

 

In Vedanta too, there is a popular and bona fide school called Dvaita Vedanta (dualistic interpretation of Vedanta). In this, there is no final realization that the Self/Atman is Brahman. There is the self and there is Brahman/God. The role of the self is to devote itself to the works of the Brahman and follow a righteous path (i'm boiling it down for sake of lucidity here).

 

When I was learning Siddhar Yoga, a young jewish lady came to learn it from my teacher. She said she taught "jewish yoga" to kids. And she would freeze and become angry everytime we talked about the Self being non-different from Brahman (here it was Shiva). It would create great conflict and cognitive dissonance in her. So much so that she seemed to have a psychological problem from it, where she would start pulling on her hair (literally) (my extrapolation here).

 

Why try to force a view onto others? It's okay if people want to be dualistic. If they feel comfort and solace in devotion and practice, under the premise that God is separate from the individual soul. 

 

I used to raise the hackles of many dualists (Gaudiya Vaishnavites such as the ISKCON folks) whenever we discussed Atman/Brahman. Problem is, most people discuss at the level of intellect. Not at the level of direct experience. And hence, conflict and arguments. 

I think the issue for me is lack of direct experience of non-duality. I am open to it being the final outcome or not, but i currently experience duality, and i'm comfortable learning at this level as for me balancing the polarities on this level is the way forwards, to whatever state that may lead.

[Bindi]

your right Dwai, there can be no forcing of view... even if the Upanishads strongly point to non-dualism.

 

Btw Bindi, I'd say that the meaning of "Spirit" as the term is often used  - does not really care what form it can work through - and will take any course it can to do so being that such is its nature; not unlike the idea of water mentioned in Taoism where water takes its course. 

 

I think it's interesting that you say "strongly point to non-dualism". Is it really not absolutely clear? 

 

And earlier, did you mean that Jesus had developed a golden body?

[3bob]

what is "absolutely clear" to one person may be a lot different to another...(as Dwai pointed out above)  whether in the Bible or in the Vedic teachings and or in others, also in everyday life... 

 

Jesus has a brilliant golden aspect of body and light, so yes

Edited December 5, 2015 by 3bob

[4bsolute]

I have been wondering for many months about the precedence of the ‘inner heart’ or ‘spiritual heart’ in various philosophies, and came across this article today which gives me a possible answer to my question, ‘is there a spiritual location beyond the spiritual heart.’ According to Muktananda, there is, and it is located in the crown…

 

 

Swami Muktananda regarded the stable visualization of the "blue pearl" to be the primary evidence of supreme realization.

 

No, just follow Sri Ramana Maharshi's teachings if you see you need any and dont switch and swap around for others. There is no need for it. Your mind does not need more input, it does need less and less input. The more you accumulate, the more you are going to get AWAY from this primordial state, relatively speaking

 

The Spiritual Heart has no location. It is neither up the crown, nor in the physical heart. Heart was given as a term of center. To make it easy for the human mind to understand from a very outside perspective, that it is (goint towards) the center. And it has the benefit to go into the chest location, heart chakra and concentrate there, for the love and warmth it radiates.

 

This is very helpful and very cleansing for the mind on it's path to the Self.

 

All thoughts have their root in the heart, that is the other, main reason why this outflow of pure consciousness was named Spiritual Heart and vaguely layed out to be in the chest / heart area

 

The Spiritual Heart is just another term for the Self, has no location.

 

What is needed is simply the removal of all conditions, in meditation. That is why accumulating more concepts and ideas while having the eyes open other than just continuously asking the question and feeling within "Who am I?" following the I ... I ... I ... to it's root in the chest, is keeping one further and further away from that realisation.

 

http://selfdefinition.org/ramana/Ramana%20Maharshi%20-%20Be%20As%20You%20Are--The%20Teachings%20of%20Sri%20Ramana%20Maharshi--Godman.pdf there are all answers for your mind. After that you do not need more information. That was it.

 

Everything else is dropping away from all conditions and feeling more into this moment

 

You can really say it is more a feeling of realising the Self. Thoughts are offline so there is nothing else than a sensing, a feeling that grows and grows into this one moment right here and right now

 

PS: "Beyond" the spiritual heart does not exit. Spiritual Heart / Self, is all (what you call beyond). There is no beyond beyond. And this beyond is here, it is not in a far off plane of existance made up by the mind, it is HERE, right where you are located in apparent time and space.

Edited December 5, 2015 by 4bsolute

[Bindi]

what is "absolutely clear" to one person may be a lot different to another...(as Dwai pointed out above)  whether in the Bible or in the Vedic teachings and or in others, also in everyday life... 

 

Jesus has a brilliant golden aspect of body and light, so yes

 

It strikes me that according to this sentence below and this author at least, nirvikalpa samâdhi, a non-dual state, is not an end in itself but this state is used for another purpose, to slowly build the golden body (a dualistic achievement?)

 

Each time he goes into nirvikalpa samâdhi he intensifies a little the spinning movement of this [crown] chakra, unfolding it a little more, and as this occurs, the golden body begins to build.

 

From Merging With Shiva

http://www.himalayan...rging-with-siva

Edited December 5, 2015 by Bindi

[3bob]

The Self is not built...

 

when a private knows what a general knows then he/she to will be a

general, in the spiritual ranks "a lording over on another" does not take place but there is still rank...

Edited December 5, 2015 by 3bob

[Jeff]

The Self is not built...

 

when a private knows what a general knows then he to will be a

general, in the spiritual ranks "a lording over on another" does not take place but there is still rank...

 

Kind of like nesting dolls...

[Bindi]

The Self is not built...

 

when a private knows what a general knows then he/she to will be a

general, in the spiritual ranks "a lording over on another" does not take place but there is still rank...

 

 

 

 

 

 

A major problem with meditation instruction in the West is that most teachers are not using the idea of recreating conception within the body, called the Spiritual or Golden Embryo in Chinese internal alchemy (nei dan).

 

Tsung-mi, a patriarch of the Hua-yen School of Chinese Buddhism speaks of nourishing the spirit (shen) and allowing the sacred embryo to grow.

 

The starting point of your body, the initial point of conception – your Buddha nature – contains all the information that's necessary to create an enlightened, golden, embryonic version of yourself.

 

The Uttara Tantra tells the same story over and over. A human being is like a poor starving person living in a little hovel that doesn't know that there's a golden treasure buried under his floor. Or it's like a pure gold statue that's wrapped in dirty cloths whose owner doesn't know that they just need to remove the dirty cloths for the brilliance of the statue to shine forth.

 

 http://www.integralworld.net/powers1.html

[Tibetan_Ice]

Thogal, a Dzogchen practice is one method of building the Golden body.

 

 

When the state of full Self-realization has been accomplished, the yogi or yogini is ready for the next and last Dzogchen practice, the practice of Tögal. This final practice enables the master yogi or yogini to dissolve his or her physical body into the essence of the elements at the time of death. The master disappears into a body of light becoming the wisdom body, the term is called ‘Ja’-lus or Rainbow body in Tibetan. This level of attainment is also the central aim of Indian Buddhist tantricism known as Vajrayana that the Taoists call the golden body. Another term frequently used is Soruba Samadhi or Gnana Deham as Vallalar used to called it. It is a golden body , a state of God-realization in which Divinity descends and transforms the spiritual, intellectual, mental, vital and physical bodies. It is considered physical immortality or the highest perfection.

 

The practice Tögal occurs in a deep state of contemplation union and is a practice of becoming the essence of all that is. In essence this practice shifts identity to the Cosmic-Awareness. In duality there is always an observer versus the rest. Even in deep meditation there always seems to be an observer left who can realize or recognise things. However if the Trekchö practice has done its job in cleaning and clearing all the blockages, karma and thoughts, the meditation might enter into a state called nirvikalpa samadhi - but in that state all is emptiness and the body is non functional. In Tögal there is a way around this by going into the non-breathing state but remaining fully functional and by doing this you automatically dive into the source of the observer and root it out completely. What remains is the essence of all that is without an observer. Vallalar called this practice Gathi and that was the starting point of the formation of the Rainbow body.

 

 

From http://soonyata.home.xs4all.nl/sorubasamadhi.htm

 

That link also contains a mix of of excellent pictures of rainbow body adepts.

 

This is from Merging With Shiva:

 

Sunday

 

LESSON 336 Birth of the Golden Body

 

The golden body, svar∫aßarîra, is a body made of golden light. After many experiences of Paraßiva, it gradually descends from the seven chakras above the sahasrâra into the âjñâ chakra, which then becomes the soul’s mûlâ- dhâra, then down into the vißuddha chakra, which then becomes its mûlâdhâra, and then down into the anâhata, which then becomes its mûlâdhâra.

 

All seven chakras above the sahasrâra slowly come down and down and down until the entire astral body is psychically seen, by mystics who have this sight, as a golden body. The astral body slowly, slowly, slowly dissolves into the golden body. That is what I have seen happen. That is what our paramparâ and our sampradâya know from experience. Experience is the only true knowing—a knowing that can be verified in books, through others who have the same knowing, but a knowing that no others know who have not had the same experience. To them it is only a concept, a nice one maybe, but just a concept or written off as an opinion.

 

When the golden body fully enters the physical, having taken over the astral, the knowing that is known comes unbidden. It is beyond reason but does not conflict with it. It is a living scripture but does not conflict with those written by seers of the past who have seen and their records have become scripture. So great is the Sanâtana Dharma that it defies all who doubt it, all who disdain it, all who disregard it, all who degrade it, with personal realization of its Truth.

 

This golden body, which begins to build into a golden body after the experience of nirvikalpa samâdhi, is connected to the sahasrâra chakra. In other words, the sahasrâra chakra is the home base in the physical body for the golden body. There are twelve basic unfoldments to this chakra as the golden body grows. When the realized sannyâsin travels in high states of contemplation, he moves freely in his golden body and can help and serve mankind. Over time, he gains a conscious control of the sahasrâra chakra as a force center which propels him into inner space.

 

It is this golden body, as it refines and refines and refines itself within the Íivaloka after moksha, that finally merges with Íiva like a cup of water being poured into the ocean. That same water can never be found and put back into the cup. This truly is svar∫aßarîra vißva- grâsa, the final, final, final merging with Siva.

 

 

Edited December 6, 2015 by Tibetan_Ice

[Mandrake]

Thogal, a Dzogchen practice is one method of building the Golden body.

 

 

From http://soonyata.home.xs4all.nl/sorubasamadhi.htm

 

That link also contains a mix of of excellent pictures of rainbow body adepts.

 

This is from Merging With Shiva:

 

 

I wouldn't trust that page very much.

 

 

M

[Bindi]

Thogal, a Dzogchen practice is one method of building the Golden body.

 

 

From http://soonyata.home.xs4all.nl/sorubasamadhi.htm

 

That link also contains a mix of of excellent pictures of rainbow body adepts.

 

This is from Merging With Shiva:

 

 

Though there are clear similarities, especially that both the rainbow body and golden body are formed after self-realisation, I think there are essential differences.

 

Admittedly I don't have much knowledge of the rainbow body, but I am confident that "This final practice enables the master yogi or yogini to dissolve his or her physical body into the essence of the elements at the time of death." (from your quote)

 

Whereas information about the golden body suggests that the change is while the adept is alive and capable of using the golden body for the benefit of humanity - "adepts are able to create both spiritual and physical change in their bodies" while still alive. (from Barclay Powers article)

 

I don't have much knowledge of Buddhist practices, so I have no idea about the truth of this, but Barclay Powers equates the Golden Embryo in Chinese internal alchemy (nei dan) with the Reality Body or Truth Body (dharmakaya) in Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism.

 

[3bob]

so who (or which of us) wins the contest and prize for pulling the best quote out of the air?

 

or making the best speculative argument,

 

or for getting ahead of the game?

Edited December 6, 2015 by 3bob

[ilumairen]

nonduality doesn't exist.

 

In your experience, or anything I label my experience, or in all the words shared here that try to point to that as experience.

[3bob]

that's a good observation Des.

[Jonesboy]

 

Though there are clear similarities, especially that both the rainbow body and golden body are formed after self-realisation, I think there are essential differences.

 

Admittedly I don't have much knowledge of the rainbow body, but I am confident that "This final practice enables the master yogi or yogini to dissolve his or her physical body into the essence of the elements at the time of death." (from your quote)

 

Whereas information about the golden body suggests that the change is while the adept is alive and capable of using the golden body for the benefit of humanity - "adepts are able to create both spiritual and physical change in their bodies" while still alive. (from Barclay Powers article)

 

I don't have much knowledge of Buddhist practices, so I have no idea about the truth of this, but Barclay Powers equates the Golden Embryo in Chinese internal alchemy (nei dan) with the Reality Body or Truth Body (dharmakaya) in Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism.

 

I would really double check the resources that says the astral golden body is the same as any of those. You can find a few of them at the spirituality forum.

 

They don't talk about silence or residing or oneness. They talk about there golden bodies and astral travel. Duality.

 

They will help you build yours too.

[Tibetan_Ice]

 

Though there are clear similarities, especially that both the rainbow body and golden body are formed after self-realisation, I think there are essential differences.

 

Admittedly I don't have much knowledge of the rainbow body, but I am confident that "This final practice enables the master yogi or yogini to dissolve his or her physical body into the essence of the elements at the time of death." (from your quote)

 

Whereas information about the golden body suggests that the change is while the adept is alive and capable of using the golden body for the benefit of humanity - "adepts are able to create both spiritual and physical change in their bodies" while still alive. (from Barclay Powers article)

 

I don't have much knowledge of Buddhist practices, so I have no idea about the truth of this, but Barclay Powers equates the Golden Embryo in Chinese internal alchemy (nei dan) with the Reality Body or Truth Body (dharmakaya) in Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism.

 

Hi Bindi, in Dzogchen, there are three kinds of rainbow bodies, two are realized upon death but the third, the Great rainbow body, enables the adept to dematerialize at will before death occurs.

 

https://www.facebook.com/notes/dzogchen-khenpo-choga-rinpoche/auspicious-news-my-teacher-lama-karma-attains-rainbow-body/10151794778007773

[3bob]

Umm, the following paraphrase and principle applies across all True paths although the terms may be different from the following: "seek God and all things will be added unto you"... including all of this rainbow mind candy talk which is what it turns into when it's sought ass backwards. (so to speak)

Edited December 6, 2015 by 3bob

[Tibetan_Ice]

http://www.spiritoftao.com/kunlunreg-system/kunlun-system-golden-dragon-body

[Tibetan_Ice]

I wouldn't trust that page very much.

 

 

M

Don't trust anything very much. It is all arising, remaining and passing...