Do we live in the matrix?

[Nungali]

When I worked in Bio dynamic Agriculture the organic people where careful not to let their natural sprays drift on to the neighbors  as they might not like it !  Conversely  we had  ( have ? ) a big court case going here about GM crossing into organic crops. A few of my Bio dynamic customers ( some very straight old style farmers) would come in the back way and ask me not to tell anyone else they used it  - worried about people mocking or subverting them  

 

 

Going back to primal societies and how they dealt with war : 

 

from 15.50 to  17.30    getting ready and  'planning' for war   ( they belived  a man from a strange group had taken one of their wives )   ..... l;ater, of course, it all goes horribly wrong . 

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8UCYFHnrUw

Edited December 9, 2015 by Nungali

[3bob]

so if we get to the bottom of it and root out who or what deserves blame - who or what will we then find?

Edited December 9, 2015 by 3bob

[Taomeow]

so if we get to the bottom of it and root out who or what deserves blame - who or what will we then find?

 

I think we might find several kinds of opposing consciousness carriers.  Some will be parasitic.  Some archonic, doing their ignoble work of replacing biology with technology, the free will embedded in nature's creations with the total control over a universal machine.  What Laozi called "the followers of death," anti-life.  And some, ruthless competitors.  Or maybe it's the same entity in its different aspects.  What did Native Americans encounter when the continent was "discovered" by the whites?  All of the above.  Those Europeans, however, encountered the same forces a bit earlier, and were already a product of their takeover.  As were parts of the American continent, it also already had "civilizations" -- those of course were the first to go when clashing with other "civilized" people, once the game is set up, it's what the pieces on the board do, they gobble each other up.  The hand that moves them, however, remains unaffected.         

[3bob]

that might be part-way to the bottom of it but I meant much deeper and long before the octopus of malice and fear fed and grew as far as it has planet wide, while at the same time the Children of the Earth Mother stand against it.  Where, who or what is at the beginning of what could be called corruption?  And if it has no root in Tao then how could such come to be?

[Nungali]

'Necessity alone is supreme .'

[Taomeow]

that might be part-way to the bottom of it but I meant much deeper and long before the octopus of malice and fear fed and grew as far as it has planet wide, while at the same time the Children of the Earth Mother stand against it.  Where, who or what is at the beginning of what could be called corruption?  And if it has no root in Tao then how could such come to be?

 

It does have its root in tao, per my investigation.  Tao is not a machine, it allows for stochastic happenings.  Classical Xuan Kong (spacetime, philosophical and abstract in addition to pragmatic and hands-on) feng shui assesses situations and events left to chance, probability, uncertainty at about 20% of everything happening in tao's overall all-encompassing domain.  That's a helluva lot, although not as much as Einstein allows for, yet a lot more than various orthodox paradigms allow for, which either ascribe omnipotence and omniscience to their one true god or else envision only one way out of our troubles -- nonexistence.

 

To me, this taoist idea is actually the only one that makes sense, that allows for the existence of uncalled-for adversity yet not for its reigning supreme. 

 

Incidentally, it also allows for the uncalled-for good fortune, undeserved salvation -- chance is chance, it does not concern itself with order, justice, or common sense.  If all was left to chance, it would be a hopelessly meaningless universe.  But no.  20%.  I believe we fell victim to something panning out that does occasionally, though not often, pan out.  For a million years, it didn't.  And then -- kaboom -- it did. 

 

Not everybody gets stricken by lightning, in fact the majority of creatures never do.  But does it matter for that one unfortunate one who does?  He or she is it.  The focal point of that probabilistic injustice without which justice can't balance itself.  On the same day, someone else will find the love of his/her life, a pot of gold, or "the meaning of it all."  Most will find it because they did something to deserve it.  But 10% will find it just because they got lucky.  And another 10% will be stricken by lightning, hit by a car, or lose their planet to archons.  This too shall pass, change, rearrange.  But it may take a long while...

 

I think we were hit with that 10% of tao's rotten tomatoes...  It doesn't end there though if we could just stop praising their flavor and gobbling them up.  80% of nonrandomness of tao is further broken down into 40% predetermined stuff (which now, in our case, includes the outcome of the fallout of that 10% bad luck) and 40% choice, free will, our own power to stir the events in the right direction. 

 

Maybe we will learn to use that someday.  Maybe not.  

 

That's how I see the bigger picture anyway.   

[3bob]

that was a heavy duty reply Taomeow that deserves heavy duty reflection - perhaps your post 56 could be the start of a different thread?  Btw, do you know of a schools doctrine or lineage holders text in print that is fairly close to what you have said? (without being to veiled for a novice to ponder)

[3bob]

Taomeow, It would seem that the random happenings or chance percent's that you mention would be spin-offs well after, "The Three"?  (which would seemingly apply to Xuan Kong or Feng shui type processes if I understand same correctly?), Thus I don't see how an anti-Tao could be rooted in Tao per-se although I do see how certain energies at certain levels once in play could be willfully manipulated or by chance devolve and become corrupted...  then one would also have to wonder about karma which in the end is supposedly 100% exacting although it can be super-ceded by a karmic payment by one who can do such.

Edited December 10, 2015 by 3bob

[Taomeow]

3bob, interesting thoughts.

 

20-80 are well in the domain of "the Three."  I haven't thought about it before, thank you for the pointer.  OK, let's see... 

 

The one-two-three are none other than one yin, one yang, and the newcomer, which is either one more yin or one more yang.  So we can have, e.g., yin-yang-yin, and there we have it -- a 33% yang/66% yin (rounding off the fractions) primary trigram, one we call Kan.  Or we get a yang-yin-yang primary trigram, 33% yin/66% yang, we call it Li.  And so on, to a total of 8 (because the yin and yang are also timing sensitive -- in graphic depictions of trigrams they assume a "lower" -- it means "earlier" -- or "middle," or "upper" -- "later"-- position.)  And then they mate.

 

Now if the yang-yin-yang trigram Li chooses to mate with a yang-yang-yang trigram we call Tian, what do we get?  We get offspring that has 5 parts yang and 1 part yin, to a total of 20% yin, 80% yang.  We call this baby, depending on the order in which that one yin appears among the five yang, Hexagram Kou, or Hexagram Lu, etc., up to 6 such babies can be (and are) born, off-kilter all of them.  There we go into the domain of the off-balance deeper and deeper.  64 deep.  

       

We are on difficult territory here.  Taoists don't like to think too much,

but when they do, they use the method the Great Treatise (Ta Chuan) defines as "the easy and the simple," after the methods used by heaven ("easy") and earth ("simple").  All the staggering complexity of the "ten thousand things" arises from multiple subsequent steps of change, each one easy and simple, incremental -- and their increasingly numerous connections, combinations, and repetitions. 

 

Now once you're looking at something as complex as "karma," you are dealing with many unknowns, all the easy and simple steps that have lead to a particular "karmic" combination are not available for scrutiny.  I do Chinese astrology.  I look at a bazi chart and see karma right there -- the imbalance, the "too much" and "not enough," the conflict, the good and bad luck, and what the person can and cannot do about it.  That's as far as I will tackle karma.  Could I find out exactly how it came to be?  Oh yes -- but I would need to know the exact time of birth from a previous incarnation, and the one before, and the one before, assuming it can be somehow known. 

 

The thing is, only the exact time of this-here life is a certainty.  Karma, reincarnations, how and why this works -- none of it can be revealed via the methods of heaven and earth, the easy and the simple.  So, tackling karma is not a taoist pursuit (except for the schools and sects that have incorporated a good deal of Buddhist ideas.)   It is something that happens in the mind of a believer.  Taoists don't reject its validity, but there's nowhere to go down that road.  So the free will available to us is applied elsewhere.  When I say that "tao has been destroyed" at a particular time in a particular place, I can prove it with simple math, no beliefs required.

 

Which is why I say we are on difficult territory.  Some things have to be believed in without proof...  beliefs are a yang force, whenever it's deficient, they work toward restoring the balance.  Not so in a situation where yang dominates...  Where yang dominates, beliefs are harmful.  All of them...   

Edited December 10, 2015 by Taomeow

[Taomeow]

that was a heavy duty reply Taomeow that deserves heavy duty reflection - perhaps your post 56 could be the start of a different thread?  Btw, do you know of a schools doctrine or lineage holders text in print that is fairly close to what you have said? (without being to veiled for a novice to ponder)

 

I'm not sure...  What I read is mostly related either to what I practice, or what I plan/hope to practice.  If you want a bird's view, I think Eva Wong's "The Shambala Guide to Taoism" is a decent place to start -- therein you can get many pointers toward subjects and sources that might look interesting to you toward a deeper immersion.

[3bob]

Taomeow, Thank you for your time, effort and the thought provoking information you've put into your reply's above!

 

A pointer I may have given was partly derived from my chance stumbling around

 

I can relate to some of this in a way with my experiences of spending a lot of time around the Pacific ocean many years ago, more specifically in it as a surfer who liked and went to the more secluded and less crowded beaches and breaks.  If one spends enough time out in the water watching the waves and all the intricacies of tides and shifting patterns of a particular area one can see some developments coming and going that are fairly predictable yet others that come about more unpredictably... for instance there are sets of waves with regular intervals and there are also what are called peak sets that combine to form waves out of the norm for that day, and occasionally there are big hairy rouge waves that catch almost everyone by surprise!  (meaning one gets blasted by them breaking on your head so to speak since almost no one is in the right position to avoid or catch them for a ride...  but if one is "lucky" and gets a sixth sense feeling at the right moment then they start paddling for a wave that by all  discernible factors  will never arrive yet rather suddenly it forms up and there they are in the right position at the right time to catch it. (or avoid it if it's to big for them to handle)

 

Aloha

Edited December 11, 2015 by 3bob

[thelerner]

that was a heavy duty reply Taomeow that deserves heavy duty reflection - perhaps your post 56 could be the start of a different thread? 

Do it.  Fate is an almost taboo subject in the West yet a science in Taoism.  One of you should create a new Topic based on her insights. 

 

Set it free from the Matrix 

[Taomeow]

3bob, that's pretty awesome.  The best (and very taoist) way to learn -- via directly participating, "embodying" what you observe rather than remaining an "objective observer" (i.e. someone on the outside looking in) -- and integrating what you've learned.  

 

I used to windsurf -- on a windy lake about a mile wide.  Didn't know anything about tao then, but this quickly taught me what I later recognized as, e.g., wuwei -- the sail catches the wind blowing in the direction you're going anyway, and your role is not to interfere...  Then the wind changes abruptly, and you turn the sail ever so slightly (or dramatically) to still go where you want to go.  Then the wind becomes erratic all of a sudden, turns into a local mini tornado and you are overpowered and fall, sometimes not even where you choose to fall (which is, away from the whole falling contraption) but just randomly, with the mast, sail, rope, the whole kaboodle entangling you under water.  No need to "do something about it!" -- carefully disengage, surface, climb back, pull up the sail...  oops...  same mini tornado, off you go, repeat performance.  Sometimes the wind would play this game with me until I got not so much tired -- for some reason going with the flow didn't tire me at all -- as  hungry, and then, miraculously, I would finally figure out how to maneuver to get back to shore.

[3bob]

Wind surfing looks great!  I've never tried it but I've watched people flying along at high speed!  (both in the ocean and in the Columbia River - a favorite area for it)

 

I can directly relate to your story of getting tangled up underwater being that one of my favorite surfing spots was more or less in kelp beds.  So if or when you wiped-out and got tangled up with kelp along with the waves white-water holding you under you sure as heck better not panic or get frantic!!  which in many cases would just entangle one further and use up the oxygen or breath you had left- so it's like you said - carefully disengage, find the surface and go at it again.  Also swimming in the ocean, body surfing, skin diving all of that is such an elemental blast!  (although certain precautions do need to be taken with activities involving the ocean, rivers or lakes, - not unlike when on land and hiking in Grizzly bear habitat in parts of the northwestern US and also Alaska with it's larger brown bear where people are not at the top of the food chain! )

Edited December 11, 2015 by 3bob

[futuredaze]

3bob, that's pretty awesome.  The best (and very taoist) way to learn -- via directly participating, "embodying" what you observe rather than remaining an "objective observer" (i.e. someone on the outside looking in) -- and integrating what you've learned. 

Reminds me of Kierkegaard's theory that truth is subjective.  Looking at things objectively, there is always some element of uncertainty and disattachment.  Once we go inward and gain more self-awareness, we can understand more of how we navigate and relate to "reality," and therefore begin to live independently and create our own meaning out of life that is subjectively true, for us.  We gain faith - but not a faith in a dogma or group, but faith in our self and our experience.  Truth, for kierkegaard, is not something that is fragmented or indifferent to our being.  No, truth is our connection to this world, totally based in our own independence and experience.

 

I think, in a way, this focusing on the ego that has come about with the "modern" age is somewhat of a matrix.  To get lost in ego is to get lost in something that cuts apart a person's own experience into small fragments in order to try to understand them intellectually, objectively.  That quickly becomes impossible, so people either live with some illusion-framework (whether positive or negative) or get disillusioned and live with existential anguish and confusion.  As they say, "the devil is in the details" -- possibly a better saying for the modern times is "the bullshit is in the details."  The ego loves the details.

 

However, if one lets go of trying to figure it all out, and instead just tries to understand them self a bit better, they will truly LIVE and have deep, powerful experiences of their senses and feelings.  To be stuck in obsessive thinking aka monkey mind aka the matrix, one never really LIVES they just CONCEPTUALIZE.  I think conceptualization CAN be helpful, but it must be built on the foundation of experience.  Too much concept without experience is limiting and keeps people in stagnation.  But then again, some people like having comfortable concepts that help them feel secure in a mysterious cosmos that is always changing. 

 

IMO

[Taomeow]

Futuredaze, thank you for your thoughts.  I largely agree.  I think "fragmentation of consciousness" is the devil -- not the same thing as "details" though, "details" are more in the domain of  "precision," and it's a benevolent force when (and only when) it is combined every step of the way with "fuzziness," imprecision, the foggy field of uncertainty where freedom, not ironclad order, can unfold its wings, like Zhuangzi's bird Peng arising from ocean foam and clouds and enveloping the sky.  Sharp precise yang that can focus on a detail only works well together with soft "general-feel," ''overall-picture" yin that is the only force able to give this detailed sharpness proper direction, harmonize it.  Taiji's "steel needle wrapped in soft cotton."  We live in an age that has stripped away the soft cotton and came to promote hardness, sharpness, rigid inflexible structures.  Which of course can only do one thing -- crumble.  The bigger they come, the harder they fall -- one and all.       

 

Reminds me of Kierkegaard's theory that truth is subjective.  Looking at things objectively, there is always some element of uncertainty and disattachment.  Once we go inward and gain more self-awareness, we can understand more of how we navigate and relate to "reality," and therefore begin to live independently and create our own meaning out of life that is subjectively true, for us.  We gain faith - but not a faith in a dogma or group, but faith in our self and our experience.  Truth, for kierkegaard, is not something that is fragmented or indifferent to our being.  No, truth is our connection to this world, totally based in our own independence and experience.

 

Yup.  Key word "connections."  The way I see it, the mind is not wrong or useless until it disconnects from the heart, the body, the soul, the world, nature, life, the process of living what you're thinking and thinking what you're living, not what someone else told you to think "about."  Our current matrix fosters such minds, barren, shattered, but also arrogant as hell -- it's easy to get arrogant when you have a hammer and no direct experience of anything but nails to interact with...  Such minds transform hearts, souls, bodies, the world, nature, life into a bunch of such nails to nail...  Idiots. 

[3bob]

details in the context of industrial equipment, ships, trains, chemical plants, power plants (like 3 mile island), etc. are extremely important!

 

When you read about a horrible oil spill in the ocean that adversely affects a large eco-system, a train derailment with dozens injured or worse,  deadly chemical compounds released near residential areas, a jet liner going down resulting in the deaths of hundreds of people, power black outs that cause havoc, etc... it is often because someone (or a combined group) forgot or were to lazy, cheap or careless about following details that doesn't mean all such details are 100% mistake proof or foolproof but they should at least be at a good and proven default level for personal and public safety. And from such defaults someone needs to review and improve upon existing details - in other words to think outside of the box creatively and then prove out and implement better and new details or the need to make changes in old details as related to this context..

Edited December 12, 2015 by 3bob

[Taomeow]

Of course, details are important -- precision is important -- and so is imprecision, room for self-adjustment.  The Chernobyl reactor blew up because there was no such margin of operational imprecision it would tolerate.  The parameters had to be precisely "just so" -- in such a design, a very slight deviation is catastrophic.  The Challenger, ditto.  A very, very slight imprecision proved fatal.  Live things always allow for fuzzy-logical adjustments, for the "general idea" not to have to rely on every single individual nut and bolt having been screwed in place "just so" -- there's always ways to tighten or loosen them without sacrificing the whole organism to a slight under- or over-tightening. 

 

Say, you have a "sibling."  This does not specify if you have a brother or a sister, it's a fuzzy-logical statement.  If some benefactor announced that he will give a million dollars to you provided you give half to your sibling, both you and this imprecise 'sibling" would get the money.  But if the same offer was, you get a million bucks provided you give half to your sister -- a more precise/detailed way to define "sibling" -- well, what if your "sibling" is a brother?..  Such precision would rob both you and your brother of half a million each.        

 

  The fastest and safest trains currently in existence were first built in Japan based on the mathematical theory of fuzzy logic.  Whose genius developer's words I like to quote every chance I get: "When complexity strikes, meaningful statements lose precision and precise statements lose meaning."  

[Songtsan]

Desires, right? Attachments, is that it?

 

Sigh...

 

Attachments, which is the bad word for "connections," "relationships," is the only thing awareness has to go on. All those stories of "pure awareness" have to attach the word "pure" to what they are talking about, have you noticed?..

 

Desires are the only tool that we have to measure the strength of these connections which hold all of awareness together. The problem is with the way some people, demons, monsters calibrate this tool.

 

I have never seen a wild animal drink more water than it needs. Domesticated ones do though -- e.g. horses. There's something wrong with domestication. What's wrong is that it's another word for enslavement. Nature did not invent it.

 

By the way, many years ago I was instantly enlightened in the best traditions of the genre the moment I read this line in a book by biologist Konrad Lorenz: "the abnormal and pathological process of domestication of humans."

Actually there is domestication and enslavement in nature. One example is certain species of ants that will collect certain species of aphids and 'farm' them for some type of dew they give off, if I remember correctly. Also, some ant colonies will attack other weaker colonies and make off with either drone ants or egg sacs and subsume them into their own colonies.

 

There is so much hegemony in life, and it all has to do with control of resources, whether the resources are 'living' or 'dead.' Anytime there is territoriality or a pecking order, there is enslavement of one sort or another. If I was a wolf, let's say, but not the alpha, I better do what I'm supposed to do, or I'll get my ass handed to me by the alpha. That's enslavement. Enslavement and domestication is so wrapped up in territoriality, which is ownership. This is a big part of the matrix. Ownership of resources puts us into compromised positions, and thus we are subsumed into a system of competing for resources within the system set up by the 'controllers.' Of course we can free our minds deprogram ourselves, and try to be creative, but that's a difficult path. Is there any true freedom? Yes, every second, I can do whatever I want. But so can anyone else. The matrix is group tendencies, and groups are hierarchical,, like a pyramid. The propaganda and mindsets that are created most strongly through top down methods do in fact resemble natural memes throughout other lifeforms, its just more socially complex than any other extant species (although I can't speak for the aliens or other dimensional species that are here with us)...if it wasn't for attachment, however, to things like food, shelter, and so forth, there would be no slavery. This is the dog and pony show and we are the ones who get trained to appease and entertain the ruling class (i.e. 'owners'). But it is the bodies and their 'needs' which are the true matrix. We are born bowing down to the 'needs' of the bodies....some would say that we were inserted into these bodies, tricked into these jails (such as by the Annunaki or some other alien race), that we were once infinite beings who had no concept of slavery. May we all know the truth.

Edited December 12, 2015 by Songtsan

[Taomeow]

Everything you're talking about is derived from humans presenting animal life in a certain way.  They don't bother with proof -- they just extrapolate what they are doing or experienced done to them onto all other species. 

 

Discovery channel, e.g., has been consistently, selectively, and relentlessly portraying animal life as brutal, cruel, violent and gory for many years.  It is anything but in reality!  Territorial fights, competition, etc. arise when habitats shrink  -- and we haven't dealt with animals who hadn't been misplaced by us in many centuries.  Hundreds of millions of creatures exterminated on the North American continent alone and in one century alone may well have left standing only the terminally neuroticized survivors -- on top of taking away their lands, their food, water, shelter, safety, freedom. 

 

I gave up on the Discovery BS even though I love animal shows -- it's all matrix propaganda, alas.  Leave it to amateur videos (thanks, youtube) to show the real story -- of countless  (I've seen dozens and watch a couple new ones every day) interspecies friendships, adoptions, fun, help, benevolence, cooperation, curiosity and delight...   

 

 

Edited December 12, 2015 by Taomeow

[3bob]

ok, the life-force can cut across what we think of as animal instincts in ways not often seen, but in general predators have claws and big teeth for reasons besides anything mankind has done, and if there were no humans on the earth they would still be using those claws and teeth per "nature",  and if they didn't use them it would hurt an eco-system in other ways - until and unless the need for predators evolved away somehow over who knows how long of time...  anyone want to see a world without hawks and eagles to name just two wild and beautiful creatures?

Edited December 12, 2015 by 3bob

[Taomeow]

I don't believe predators are "wrong" morally, or existentially, or "by design," or any which way.  When they overpredate in excess of the natural creation-destruction balance, well that's us, that's abnormal.  When they underpredate because we decided to regulate nature to our liking...  the deer destroyed the habitat of thousands of other species, plant and mammal and fish and bird and insect, when we decided to make Yosemite national park "safe" by killing all wolves.   Whereupon a lot of effort was invested into reintroducing wolves before we got ourselves yet another desert.  

 

Predators are fine.  The natural fourfold cosmic cycle of Conception-Growth-Fruition-Consummation couldn't work without them.   It's deranged predators that, locally, make the rate of 'Consummation' abnormally high, whereby the universal process is locally thrown off balance.  We are in such location.  I'm not even sure it can't potentially destroy the whole universe, not just this one planet.  There's this theory that the flapping of a butterfly's wing in Texas can get amplified to a hurricane in Uruguay.  Who knows -- maybe pulling wings off butterflies and bees on Earth causes gods to die on Jupiter.  

 

Which is why I hope they will put up a fight.  If not for us, then for themselves.  Otherwise we're royally screwed.     

Edited December 12, 2015 by Taomeow

[Nungali]

If I were to go out to the garden now, I could go straight to a spot and find some red bellied black snakes, some young little ones, all living together with some frogs and mice ... which will be their food when they get a bit bigger, but  for now, under the barrier that stops the grass spreading into the veggie patch, thye are all huddled up comfy together. 

 

When Snappy isnt in feeding mode , the little fish in the tank  swim right up to his nose and swim around his head, sometimes he actually seems bothered or scared by them and goes into his cave. If it is feeding time (usually when the Moon is at I.C. of M.H. ) ....  snap !  down the hatch ! 

[Songtsan]

Well then, what about parasites? Read the book 'Parasite Rex' - I don't agree that we are anthromorphisizing these patterns. There ain't no free. There is always another organism trying to take from you,, infest you,, use you in some way, whether its the flies that gather around a horses eyes ( drinking their 'eye juice').

 

http://boingboing.net/2009/04/01/ant-slaves-murderous.html

 

So the ant slavery is not a far fetched empirical observation, its been known for decades. And parasites, as well as related viruses, bacteria, etc. Could be likened to slavery. And there are other animals that 'farm' plants and other materials. Is agriculture slavery? What about between different plants? Black Wallnut trees basically kill off most vegetation around themselves. Its not just tooth and nail out here, its root and stem, pseudopod and spore....the lines between parasitism and symbiosis is often blurred.

[3bob]

I'd say that what could be called anti-Tao can reach a long ways to upset the "natural fourfold cosmic cycle" by various willful and unfortunate twisting's, but only so far for so long - and if that wasn't true then we as human beings and the rest of universe and even the quintessential Tao would have been screwed way before our conception.