Mooji vs Daskalos, Does energy work lead to self realization?

[MooNiNite]

Mooji explaining energy work with relation to self realization

 

 

Daskales student explaining energy work with relation to self realization

 

[Tibetan_Ice]

Well that was a very enjoyable pair of videos.

 

I hope Dawei, Tom, Jeff, Daeluin, Bindi, Bob and everyone here takes the time to watch them.

 

(Too bad about presenting the Krishnamurti book as a gift, though...lol)

 

My new book to read...

 

http://www.amazon.com/Swimming-Whale-Second-Experiences-Researchers-ebook/dp/B00K1MNFZY/ref=tmm_kin_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=

 

Thanks MooNiNite

 

Edited December 8, 2015 by Tibetan_Ice

[Nikolai1]

Realisation and energy work are the same thing.  The student who sees with his wisdom that he is not trapped in time and space, will feel the same truth in his body.  He will feel unbounded; the pleasure of liberation will be felt as a pleasure that cannot be contained by the body.

 

Mooji's error is that he is seeing things only from the witness state, where all things are meaningless and passing phenomena.  He relegates energetic experience as being more of the 'story' when in actual fact the energy work is itself the liberation.

 

The opposite error is to turn energy work into a 'technique'.  Practice X will cause effect Y, where Y= realisation.  

 

Both these errors are dualitic in nature.  Mooji's dualism is relegating everything energetic to the category 'mere phenomenon'.  It is what happens when you use your mind too much and interpret everything according to the way the witness sees.   Damakos's student's error is in splitting the unsplitable into two components and seeing causal relations between them.

 

Intellectual realisation and felt (energetic) realisation are the same thing, viewed from different modalities.  An electrical storm looks like flashes of lighting to the eye, and crashes of sound to the ear.  But we do not say that lighting causes thunder, or vice versa

 

Energy work only looks like mere phenomena when viewed from the mind.  Energy work only 'causes' realisation for those who aren't using the mind enough.

 

Get the balance right, and you will see that Mooji and Damakos are saying the exact same thing!

[Nikolai1]

Another interesting thing about this video is that it reveals very clearly that Mooji doesn't understand the Kundalini experience,and has not experienced it for himself.  He was asked straight out.  But rather than give a straight honest affirmation he said:

 

'My Dear!  All that is child's play!'

 

Thus he was able to imply he knew all about it, while shutting the conversation down before he had to speak authoritatively about it.  

 

It is true that Kundalini can be felt in the body before the mind can make sense of it.  But when the mind does finally make sense of it, it would not relegate it in the way Mooji did.

[Jetsun]

It makes sense what Mooji says though, that if the kundalini was a temporary experience then it can't be what you are, and if it makes you feel special then it can be a block to realisation by inflating your ego.

[Nikolai1]

It makes sense what Mooji says though, that if the kundalini was a temporary experience then it can't be what you are, and if it makes you feel special then it can be a block to realisation by inflating your ego.

We all have breakthroughs - we all have moments of such dramatic insight that nothing is the same again.  Kundalini is the felt version of this breakthrough.  It was clearly without any prior expectation (which suggests a lack of intellectuality in the girl).  She was suggesting that her life has been changed by the experience and the validity of this needed to be recognised by Mooji, somehow.  

 

But like many Advaitins, he had nothing else to offer than the rote 'how it looks from the witness' argument' - which is that it is all mere phenomena.

 

We have to let ourselves talk in terms of process (spiritual breakthroughs) and talk in terms of no-process (all is empty).  If that girl went away feeling her Kundalini was insignificant then that wouldl have been unskilful teaching I would have said.

[Jetsun]

We all have breakthroughs - we all have moments of such dramatic insight that nothing is the same again.  Kundalini is the felt version of this breakthrough.  It was clearly without any prior expectation (which suggests a lack of intellectuality in the girl).  She was suggesting that her life has been changed by the experience and the validity of this needed to be recognised by Mooji, somehow.  

 

But like many Advaitins, he had nothing else to offer than the rote 'how it looks from the witness' argument' - which is that it is all mere phenomena.

 

We have to let ourselves talk in terms of process (spiritual breakthroughs) and talk in terms of no-process (all is empty).  If that girl went away feeling her Kundalini was insignificant then that wouldl have been unskilful teaching I would have said.

 

That is one way of looking at it. Another is that he was trying to break the woman's fixation on the experience so she can become aware of what it is that is experiencing. I guess the Guru makes the decision in the moment what is the best approach to take, I don't know if he got it right with this woman. In terms of the lineage he comes from based upon Ramana Maharshi teachings his advice isn't out of sync with that lineage.

 

I personally know someone who many years ago went to Mooji's teacher Papaji and said to him that he was having all these amazing blissful high samadhi experiences, and Papaji just said to him that is just a waste of time and useless. Ultimately those experiences weren't useless but those words at that time were incredibly helpful in helping him realise that those experiences weren't it, weren't liberation, otherwise he could have continued chasing them for many years. 

[aboo]

My memory may be wrong, but I am sure I read Ramana Maharshi hugged his attendant Annamalai Swami very tightly - the energy making him lose consciousness - when he left his service to take up spiritual practice, and Ramana Maharshi would - so I read - stare at people intently, which I assume was some sort of energy transmission, likewise the sitting in his presence being capable of clearing one's thoughts: surely all these things were some form of subtle energy transmission?

[johndoe2012]

Energy work, clearing emotional blocks is very helpful both before and after realization.

 

Focusing only on insight and not transforming emotions turns you into a frankenstein monster.

 

Also embodiment is important.

 

The work never stops though naive people keep thinking so when they read books, quote adyashanti and other fancy gurus.

[Sahaj Nath]

Realisation and energy work are the same thing.  The student who sees with his wisdom that he is not trapped in time and space, will feel the same truth in his body.  He will feel unbounded; the pleasure of liberation will be felt as a pleasure that cannot be contained by the body.

 

Mooji's error is that he is seeing things only from the witness state, where all things are meaningless and passing phenomena.  He relegates energetic experience as being more of the 'story' when in actual fact the energy work is itself the liberation.

 

The opposite error is to turn energy work into a 'technique'.  Practice X will cause effect Y, where Y= realisation.  

 

Both these errors are dualitic in nature.  Mooji's dualism is relegating everything energetic to the category 'mere phenomenon'.  It is what happens when you use your mind too much and interpret everything according to the way the witness sees.   Damakos's student's error is in splitting the unsplitable into two components and seeing causal relations between them.

 

Intellectual realisation and felt (energetic) realisation are the same thing, viewed from different modalities.  An electrical storm looks like flashes of lighting to the eye, and crashes of sound to the ear.  But we do not say that lighting causes thunder, or vice versa

 

Energy work only looks like mere phenomena when viewed from the mind.  Energy work only 'causes' realisation for those who aren't using the mind enough.

 

Get the balance right, and you will see that Mooji and Damakos are saying the exact same thing!

 

some really important insights in this post. points that are almost always overlooked and completely lost on the overly academic and the overly religious alike. you should consider reworking this into a stand-alone thread. 

 

i would have greatly benefited from a conversation with you two years ago.

[MooNiNite]

it would seem that the majority of people are associating kundalini with self realization.

 

However, it seems strange some people would make that assessment but also agree that this is wrong:

 

"Practice X will cause effect Y, where Y= realization."

[Nikolai1]

it would seem that the majority of people are associating kundalini with self realization.

 

However, it seems strange some people would make that assessment but also agree that this is wrong:

 

"Practice X will cause effect Y, where Y= realization."

The way I see is is that when we practice we always concentrate on one area - be it the intellectual aspect, the feelings or energetic aspect, or the action/ethical aspect.  Realisation will come, but it will take the form of the aspect we have focussed on.

 

The distinctively ntellectual realisation is the attainment of the non-dual witness state. This is the fruit of the jnani.  But we have to see that this endpoint is intellectual only, and that our feelings and actions have to 'catch up' with it.  If we mistake intellectual realisation for total realisation we will find ourselves disparaging the Kundalini experiences which for our neighbour have been the main thrust of their practice.

 

It can be very confusing when we reach the witness state, because from the intellectual perspective there really is no further to go.  But when we look from our heart and see that there is further to go, we are able to admit that what we lack is what all those Kundalini yogis have already gained...(and what they lack, we have gained)

 

We need to simultaneously honour our own path, while realising the narrowness of its focus.  This is hard for all practitioners.

Edited December 9, 2015 by Nikolai1

[Nikolai1]

Jetsun

 

That is one way of looking at it. Another is that he was trying to break the woman's fixation on the experience so she can become aware of what it is that is experiencing. I guess the Guru makes the decision in the moment what is the best approach to take, I don't know if he got it right with this woman.

You talk about the guru taking a decision in the moment.  He may presumably find himself advising energy practice to one person and disparging it to the next.  Certainly, lots of great masters have been like this, and have seemed contradictory.

 

But is Mooji?  I suspect that disparaging energy practice is what he always does. Unfortunately this is the style of the dogmatic advaitin who will only view things from the very intellectual witness state.

 

If I've got Mooji wrong I'd be interested to know?  I always feel much more confortable with teachers who contradict themselves.

[Jetsun]

Jetsun

 

You talk about the guru taking a decision in the moment. He may presumably find himself advising energy practice to one person and disparging it to the next. Certainly, lots of great masters have been like this, and have seemed contradictory.

 

But is Mooji? I suspect that disparaging energy practice is what he always does. Unfortunately this is the style of the dogmatic advaitin who will only view things from the very intellectual witness state.

 

If I've got Mooji wrong I'd be interested to know? I always feel much more confortable with teachers who contradict themselves.

I don't think Mooji ever advocates energy practice as far as I know, which doesn't necessarily mean his realisation is purely intellectual, it's just not what he does or sees as necessary.

[Nikolai1]

I don't think Mooji ever advocates energy practice as far as I know, which doesn't necessarily mean his realisation is purely intellectual, it's just not what he does or sees as necessary.

If he is meeting people and not seeing energy work as absolutely crucial to a very large proportion of them, then he is teaching from a position of dogma.  

 

Maybe he realises he is doing that though.  I think teachers who do, say things like: 'this is not what we say here' or, 'here, we teach that the most important thing is to let all things pass.'  Such teachers would recommend that the student go elsewhere and will know precisely where to send them.

Edited December 9, 2015 by Nikolai1

[Jetsun]

If he is meeting people and not seeing energy work as absolutely crucial to a very large proportion of them, then he is teaching from a position of dogma.

 

Maybe he realises he is doing that though. I think teachers who do, say things like: 'this is not what we say here' or, 'here, we teach that the most important thing is to let all things pass.' Such teachers would recommend that the student go elsewhere and will know precisely where to send them.

That is your dogma that energy work is absolutely crucial. For those in his lineage and other lineages energetic work in the sense of intentional manipulation of energy wasn't crucial, which doesn't mean that there isn't an energetic component, just it doesn't come in the form of energy work.

[Nikolai1]

That is your dogma that energy work is absolutely crucial. 

I've been saying that it is only crucial for some people.  Dogma, as I use the term, is setting up one teaching and applying it unilaterally to all.

 

We all follow a practice consciously according to our conscious needs and understandings, our personality and so on.  What then happens is that all the fruits of the paths we did not take accrue more slowly and naturally.  We therefore may find ourselves rejecting the need for energetic practice, and yet when we lie in bed at night we cannot help but enjoy the lovely sensations that pass through our body.  It does not occur to us that these feelings are of spiritual significance, it certainly doesn't occur to us that when we enjoy them we are engaging in another man's practice!

 

But there comes a time when we notice that our own practice has led involuntarily to states that others have been striving consciously for.  At the same time we may notice the limitations of our own practice compared to what others have gained through theirs.  Yes we enjoy what happens as we lie in bed...but they are experiencing bliss on a whole other level!

 

So when our path starts to merge with others, we naturally become less dogmatic about our own.  And by being less dogmatic we are able to honestly see that some people are totally unsuited to the path we are able to teach.

Edited December 9, 2015 by Nikolai1

[Jeff]

That is your dogma that energy work is absolutely crucial. For those in his lineage and other lineages energetic work in the sense of intentional manipulation of energy wasn't crucial, which doesn't mean that there isn't an energetic component, just it doesn't come in the form of energy work.

 

Sooner or later energy work/refinement is critical for all paths of truth/realization/knowing. And, yes that is my "dogma".

[Nikolai1]

Sooner or later energy work/refinement is critical for all paths of truth/realization/knowing. And, yes that is my "dogma".

I would say it slightly differently.  The refinement I would say is inevitable, but it may feel like it is happening automatically, rather than as deliberate 'practice'.

[Jetsun]

Sooner or later energy work/refinement is critical for all paths of truth/realization/knowing. And, yes that is my "dogma".

 

It depends on what is meant by energy work/refinement. I am not denying that there is an energy connection to all of this, I do energy work myself. What I am saying is that the approach which a number of people have had success with is that the energetic side of things can come as a result rather than a cause, or can occur naturally after a certain level of realisation, which is the discussion I was trying to have with rainbowvein in the Spiritual Heart thread. 

 

If you do energy work before realisation then it can smooth out the process and help prepare the vessel for the pure spirit of life to flow through you, it could even help ripen you depending on how it is gone about, but if you exclusively focus on strengthening the energy bodies and never get round to seeing the truth of the core blockage of separation consciousness in the heart it is like preparing for your wedding your whole life but never getting married.

[Nikolai1]

As someone whose path has been very intellectual / philosophical I find it fascinating that the same insights into truth can just 'happen' to those experienced in, say, qigong.  No need to read Kant and Hegel!

[Jeff]

It depends on what is meant by energy work/refinement. I am not denying that there is an energy connection to all of this, I do energy work myself. What I am saying is that the approach which a number of people have had success with is that the energetic side of things can come as a result rather than a cause, or can occur naturally after a certain level of realisation, which is the discussion I was trying to have with rainbowvein in the Spiritual Heart thread. 

 

If you do energy work before realisation then it can smooth out the process and help prepare the vessel for the pure spirit of life to flow through you, it could even help ripen you depending on how it is gone about, but if you exclusively focus on strengthening the energy bodies and never get round to seeing the truth of the core blockage of separation consciousness in the heart it is like preparing for your wedding your whole life but never getting married.

 

Totally agree with you.

 

But, "realization" is an ongoing process rather than an "end".  The energy stuff never stops, unless one thinks they are "done".

[Tibetan_Ice]

So far the "Swimming With the Whale" book is right on.

 

So, here is how the Buddhists leave their foot prints in stone...

 

Chapter Twelve

 

I LAUGH WHEN I HEAR THE FISH IS THIRSTY

 

We may see another aspect of the Mind expression of the Almightiness. We can see it as energy, as Etheric Vitality. Where can we see that? We see it in our bodies. That's our daily bread we are asking God to give us, "Give us this day our daily bread" -the Etheric Vitality. How do we get it in our bodies? In three ways. The first is known –eating, drinking and sleep. The second is breathing the Etheric Vitality, and the third and the most important is -breathing spiritually. How can we know that? By training. And, when we know that, what can we do? We can become masters of matter. We can materialize the Etheric Vitality or dematerialize it. We can change the nature of matter. These are not stories or myths but the reality.

 

On one occasion Joshua Emmanuel the Christ put in a basket five little loaves of bread and two fish. He prayed to the Holy Spirit and the Logos. He was putting both his hands in the basket containing only two fish and five loaves of bread. The left hand came out with a piece of bread and the other one with a fried fish. "Give to each person a loaf of bread." There were only two fish and five loaves of bread in that basket. How did He feed the 5000? He was materializing the Etheric Vitality. That is not a myth.

 

That was a reality. He has done that many, many times, not only two times. You will find out the existence of the so-called Etheric Double. You have to know this Etheric Double. You have it, of course, but unless you make use of it how will you know that it is there? ~ Daskalos

 

 

[Apech]

I like the Mooji vid but couldn't really be bothered to watch all of the other one - which had too much of that spooky 'we are spiritual' vibe for me.

 

I'm finding it difficult to answer the poll - because it's a straight yes/no answer.  Does energy work lead to self realisation? ... well maybe sometimes but quite often not.

 

The best answer I think is that you cultivate Xing ad Ming at appropriate times.  But if you cultivate Ming (life energy) to have experiences ... as Mooji says that's child's play or rather it's playing around.  Some people do this and come unstuck when it actually works i.e. they get (sometimes) violent reactions - well that begs the question why do it if you don't want something to happen?  Huh?

[Apech]

As someone whose path has been very intellectual / philosophical I find it fascinating that the same insights into truth can just 'happen' to those experienced in, say, qigong.  No need to read Kant and Hegel!

 

Better if you have though.