Fear of the Feminine

[Nikolai1]

Hi Daeluin,

 

I thought your post was absolutely fascinating, but it was an explanation of Daoist philosophy.  It didn't address the problem we all as individuals face, which is: from the perspective of the culture we live in in the west, which has shaped the way we are and think, all this Daoist philosophy is so much nonsense.  Talk like this in public, at the local bar or mall, and you will be genrally considered as a freak, and you will be dismissed as a freak.

 

How do we integrate this with what we have here in the west?  Of course we can talk about to our heart's content here on this site but how can we integrate it with what is around us.  Integration is what I'm talking about, and there are so many people, especially on this site, whose passion for Daoism just eclipses their own roots.

 

When Wilhelm was in China he became Chinese; and when he returned to Germany he resumed his career as a priest and preached conventional Christian sermons.  His soul was deeply divided; his Chinese psyche came to him only in foreboding dreams the true meaning of which he could not countenance.

 

The task surely is to be beyond east and west, beyond science and I Ching?

[ilumairen]

So last night a father spoke with me about how disappointed and upset he was with the plea agreement set before the man who had sexually abused his daughters. As I listened I recalled the video Yueya had shared here.

 

 

Thoughts?

 

 

[Nikolai1]

So last night a father spoke with me about how disappointed and upset he was with the plea agreement set before the man who had sexually abused his daughters. As I listened I recalled the video Yueya had shared here. Thoughts?

Utterly off-topic, but start a new thread perhaps?

[ilumairen]

Hi Daeluin,

 

I thought your post was absolutely fascinating, but it was an explanation of Daoist philosophy.  It didn't address the problem we all as individuals face, which is: from the perspective of the culture we live in in the west, which has shaped the way we are and think, all this Daoist philosophy is so much nonsense.

 

But what you are addressing is only one layer of the onion - a cultural layer. Daeluin is addressing a layer regarding interpersonal male/female dynamic.

 

Talk like this in public, at the local bar or mall, and you will be genrally considered as a freak, and you will be dismissed as a freak.

 

As would you if you ran around saying all of the words that you type here. I suspect you don't actually do that anymore than he does. (BTW I don't like the word 'freak' - it is divisive and cruel.)

 

[ilumairen]

Utterly off-topic, but start a new thread perhaps?

 

Utterly off topic? Oh my stars!

[ilumairen]

So, here we sit...

 

One person starting a thread about Inda being a metaphor for fear of the feminine - which, in a way, coincides with what was shared elsewhere by the same person regarding the heroes journey. Masculine comes in, and directs the discussion into a more literal understanding. Feminine quietly try to redirect. Feminine responds to feminine, gets shot down by masculine for words used. Feminine, in another form, tries to respond to feminine, and masculine asserts 'off topic' - when masculine is the one who redirected said topic in the first place.

 

*****

 

Grrrrr

[Nikolai1]

So, here we sit... One person starting a thread about Inda being a metaphor for fear of the feminine - which, in a way, coincides with what was shared elsewhere by the same person regarding the heroes journey. Masculine comes in, and directs the discussion into a more literal understanding. Feminine quietly try to redirect. Feminine responds to feminine, gets shot down by masculine for words used. Feminine, in another form, tries to respond to feminine, and masculine asserts 'off topic' - when masculine is the one who redirected said topic in the first place. ***** Grrrrr

The term masculine pretty soon stops working when you imagine it applies to males more than it does females.  Likewise the east does not stand for femininity and the west does not stand for masculinity.  When you participate in these threads therefore try not to imagine yourself to be offering the feminine perspective just because you are female. 

[ilumairen]

The term masculine pretty soon stops working when you imagine it applies to males more than it does females.  Likewise the east does not stand for femininity and the west does not stand for masculinity.  When you participate in these threads therefore try not to imagine yourself to be offering the feminine perspective just because you are female. 

 

I counted Daeluin's response as feminine which invalidates your argument.

[Nikolai1]

I counted Daeluin's response as feminine which invalidates your argument.

I say this because you issue with your female acquaintance being mistreated by a male is such a specific,local example that its hard to see its relevance to this thread and can only derail it.

[ilumairen]

If you do not wish to look at, or discus the things in the video Yueya felt was pertinent to the topic she started that is your choice.

 

But to call others out who are trying to follow where she gently wished to lead...

 

Oi vey!

[ilumairen]

PS Nikolai, I've only met this man's mistreated daughters once. They are beautiful children.

 

In parts of the East they would now be considered 'damaged goods'. The father that I spoke with was just as angered, and longing for vengeance as his counterparts on the other side of the world. The only difference is, to him, his daughters are still of great value.

[Nikolai1]

I'm not denying by the way, that there is such a thing as matriarchal and partiarchal societies.  Within these we have a dominant gender that holds all the social power, legal rights and there is a disenfranchised gender that is very disempowered.

 

In the present day the clear examples of Patriarchal societies are those Islamic countries where men very much rule and have all the power.  If there was a fear of the Feminine then these countries demonstrate it well.  European society has not been patriarchal for many centuries.

 

A matriarchal society is of course the opposite.

 

In the west, societies are mildly matriarchal but veering towards a much stronger expression.  This acceleration towards the matriarchal is made possible because of a benign delusion that we all hold, which is that our society is, like the Islamic countries, patriarchal.  Both men and women are therefore activeley feminist and are seeking to place more power with the women, and imagine that there is some sort of deficit of female power.  This delusion is the necessary context for any gender to become dominant.  In order to unbalance the scales, we must imagine that the dominant are the submissive and so give more to them.

 

This is a natural and healthy swing towards the feminine that our societies have not seen for millenia and I think the challlenge is to allow it to happen, while simultaneously seeing that women are not, in fact, disenfranchised.  We must also allow power to pass into the hands of the women while not demonising men too excessively, as we seethe Islamic countries do to women.

[ilumairen]

I say this because you issue with your female acquaintance being mistreated by a male is such a specific,local example that its hard to see its relevance to this thread and can only derail it.

At individual level I have spoken of 3 sisters being mistreated by a male. At the local community level this has played out numerous times, in numerous ways, and is a burdon on individuals, families, law enforcement, and the court system. At a state level it becomes a further burdon on tax payers, as we move from the local jails, to the state run prisons. We now include prison workers and officials, and how what they experience trickles back down to still further families and individuals - not to mention the relationships between the incarcerated (most of whom will be released back into society as a whole) and how these interactions are affected by and further affect both individual and community.

 

Then we can consider the cost of appeals, and further involvement of judges and lawyers (many of whom are provided by law and paid for with taxes as well).

 

Some such crimes meet the criteria to fall under federal jurisdiction - more money, more lives involved, and more attention which brings the paradigms back down to family and personal level by way of the national news, id (murder tv according to South Park), and books and movies.

 

I can cite such crimes that have crossed international borders, and brought even more attention.

 

Here in America we like to bury our heads in the sand, and point across international borders. We can be horrified by the brutality of a single rape that occurs elsewhere, and tell ourselves that it is endemic of the society which we are looking at. The news helps us do this. It enables a belief that we are better than 'other', and allows for things like the 'rape of India' by the British. While this may be 'good' for developing some sense of national identity; this national identity is, itself, a filter that distorts our view - we (as a nation) become the forceful and fearful masculine.

Edited December 18, 2015 by ilumairen

[ilumairen]

http://www.ohio.edu/people/thompsoc/Body.html

 

"Body Ritual of the Nacerima"

[Daeluin]

Hi Daeluin,

 

I thought your post was absolutely fascinating, but it was an explanation of Daoist philosophy.  It didn't address the problem we all as individuals face, which is: from the perspective of the culture we live in in the west, which has shaped the way we are and think, all this Daoist philosophy is so much nonsense.  Talk like this in public, at the local bar or mall, and you will be genrally considered as a freak, and you will be dismissed as a freak.

 

How do we integrate this with what we have here in the west?  Of course we can talk about to our heart's content here on this site but how can we integrate it with what is around us.  Integration is what I'm talking about, and there are so many people, especially on this site, whose passion for Daoism just eclipses their own roots.

 

When Wilhelm was in China he became Chinese; and when he returned to Germany he resumed his career as a priest and preached conventional Christian sermons.  His soul was deeply divided; his Chinese psyche came to him only in foreboding dreams the true meaning of which he could not countenance.

 

The task surely is to be beyond east and west, beyond science and I Ching?

 

So called "Daoist philosophy" comes from observing nature. Understanding nature, one can choose to talk about it, to philosophize. Or, one can use this understanding to integrate within nature.

 

I don't share this to stimulate minds, I share this because for me, it informs my actions. Certainly I share the reasoning for why it all fits together according to a systematized perspective. But I also gave a very simple course of action to follow. This course of action was very similar to your own previous post, and followed upon an explanation of why this course of action works.

 

This is all complicated, but essentially, I feel that when we cultivate and regulate our own internal balances, we are less likely to depend upon others to balance them for us, and consequently less likely to end up in situations where those balances are sought - from either gender - in a controlling dynamic.

 

So called "Daoist philosophy" often excludes the excludes the explanation of how one should cultivate oneself to regulate one's own internal balances, because that is highly dependent on the individual. It is left to the individual to work at discerning how and when they are imbalanced, how and when they are balanced, which actions lead them to greater balance or lesser balance, and so on. Only the individual can be responsible for their own healing, and this comes from sincerely intending to heal. 

 

 

Thus the "philosophy" is not meant to be caged and protected for specific uses. It describes the path to balance in all circumstances, and that is its value. It embodies every religion, and can easily be spoken of through the lens of Christianity, Politics, War, Knitting, Cooking, Building, Walking, Learning, Writing, or simply Being.

 

Zhuangzi speaks of a concept called Walking Two Roads:

 

 

But to labor your spirit trying to make all things one, without realizing that it is all the same [whether you do so or not], is called "Three in the Morning."

 

What is this Three in the Morning? A monkey trainer was distributing chestnuts. He said, "I'll give you three in the morning and four in the evening." The monkeys were furious. "Well then," he said, "I'll give you four in the morning and three in the evening." The monkeys were delighted.

This change of description and arrangement caused no loss, but in one case it brought anger and in another delight. He just went by the rightness of their present "this." Thus the Sage uses various rights and wrongs to harmonize with others and yet remains at rest in the middle of Heaven the Potter's Wheel. This is called "Walking Two Roads."

 

Zhuangzi

ch 2, tl Brook Ziporyn

The idea is not to project one way upon another. It is easy to speak of daoism here in this forum because we are all studying it in some fashion. Elsewhere I endeavor to speak less through my words and more through my actions. If someone wishes to hear words of wisdom, perhaps I will share, but I will take care to listen to what they are able to hear, and say no more than that.

 

I have no desire to change others, for I accept others as they are. The best way for me to heal the world is to heal myself.

And even in healing myself to the attainment of incredible powers, then just like lofty wisdom, they should not be shared with an audience that cannot properly accept them without becoming confused:

 

 

Jian Wu said to Lian Shu, "I was listening to the words of the madman Jieyu. He talked big without getting at anything, going on and on without getting anywhere. I was shocked and terrified by what he said, which seemed as limitless as the Milky Way -- vast and excessive, with no regard for the way people really are."

 

Lian Shu asked, "What in the world did he say?"

 

"'There is a Spirit-Man living on distant Mt. Guye with skin like ice and snow, gentle and yielding like a virgin girl. He does not eat the five grains but rather feeds on the wind and dew. He rides upon the air and clouds, as if hitching his chariot to soaring dragons, wandering beyond the four seas. He concentrates his spirit, and straightaway all things are free from sickness and the harvest matures.' I regard this as crazy talk, which I refuse to believe."

 

"That's just as it should be. The blind have no access to the beauty of visual patterns, and the deaf have no part in the sounds of bells and drums. It is not only the physical body that can be blind and deaf; the faculty of understanding can also be so. If you were then to 'agree' with his words, you would be acting like a virgin girl who has just reached her time. A man like the one described in these words blankets all things with his Virtuosity, allowing the present age to seek out its own chaotic order. How could he be bothered to try to manage the world? This man is harmed by no thing. A flood may reach the sky without drowning him; a drought may melt the stones and scorch the mountains without scalding him. From his dust and chaff you could mold yourself a Yao or a Shun. Why would he bother himself over mere beings? A ceremonial cap salesman of Song once traveled to Yue, where the people shave their heads and tattoo their bodies -- they had no use for such things. After Yao brought all the people of the world under his rule and put all within the four seas into good order, he went off to see four of these masters of distant Mt. Guye at the bright side of the Fen River. Astonished at what he saw there, he forgot all about his kingdom."

[redcairo]

Yueya, I found your first page of posts really interesting.

 

I think in part because in analogy, it mirrors a fairly massive problem I've had all my life. I suspect the issue with "allowing oneself vulnerability" -- allowing yin, for me -- might be more common in our culture than we realize.  It has certainly been the greatest challenge in my life, and has been cyclical for me -- generally causing great angst followed by utter disaster in failure and then the cycle starts over again. I'm pretty much at the death-if-I-fail level now so getting a handle on this would sure be a good thing, and any suggestions are welcome.

[Geof Nanto]

Yueya, I found your first page of posts really interesting.

 

I think in part because in analogy, it mirrors a fairly massive problem I've had all my life. I suspect the issue with "allowing oneself vulnerability" -- allowing yin, for me -- might be more common in our culture than we realize.  It has certainly been the greatest challenge in my life, and has been cyclical for me -- generally causing great angst followed by utter disaster in failure and then the cycle starts over again. I'm pretty much at the death-if-I-fail level now so getting a handle on this would sure be a good thing, and any suggestions are welcome.

 

I like your yin / yang pairing of vulnerable / invulnerable. It's certainly central to my "fear of the feminine" theme.  And in my observation, not allowing yin is definitely "more common in our culture than we realize." Which is why I started this thread. 

 

I'll write some more later. I'm a slow writer and not a natural when it comes to verbal communication. I need to push myself to write. I'd much rather read other people's words and ponder areas I find interesting. And there's much of interest in your posts - and indeed other people's posts on this thread that I haven't as yet replied to.

Edited December 20, 2015 by Yueya

[Daeluin]

Sometimes I think of Yin as a type of emptiness, like space and time. And of yang as a type of substance that is contained.

 

As yin and yang merge, there is potential for balance and imbalance.

 

The theme of this thread seems to be seeking an answer related to the imbalances that can be forced from one to another, perhaps in particular from yang to yin.

 

The yijing seems to have a theme, where when yang and yin interact, conditioning is invited, whereby the firmness and emptiness become cloudy and impure. In particular, where there are multiple yin lines in a row, the potential for conditioning is multiplied through each subsequent line. Perhaps as though one is walking through one layer of darkness, and then another, and then another.

 

Perhaps the challenge here is to preserve one's wholeness and sanity through each of these layers. But, like when one is locked in a dark room, or alone in space, for extended period of times, it becomes increasingly difficult to maintain one's well-being without allowing fear and delusion to transform one's coping mechanism into increasingly more instable forms.

 

We, on these forums understand the benefits of intentionally developing stillness. However many in the outside world develop patterns and momentums that need to expend energy into forms that will receive it. Thus constantly developing and feeding desires though interactions on Computers, TV's, Radios, Work, Friends, and many unhealthy relationships with the consumption of Food. Such that when faced with time out in Nature, where the emptiness and firmness of the environment are in a more pure state, often people from the city tend to simply bring their chaotic and scattered energies into it, and, especially at night, become frightened of the vast stillness.

 

So far this has been an exploration of the yang exploring the yin, from the perspective of the yang. And the answer for the healing of yang is greater stillness.

 

What about the yin exploring the yang, from the perspective of the yin? When the yin is open and receptive and unclouded, and faced with yang that wants to pollute it? I wonder if the answer is the same. The daodejing says that in yielding, we remain whole. In martial arts, yielding can be thought of not being where someone is punching, slipping past the force of yang and thus not being there to resist it.

 

Just like in the example of yang spending time in increasing layers of yin, I wonder if the deeper one allows their receptivity, their vulnerability, to embrace that yang, the more deeply it enters into one; the more deeply it pollutes one. And so I wonder if one answer is to learn to let the yang slip past on the surface layers of yin, before it is able to penetrate more deeply. To simply flow past.

 

Another thought comes to me... that often men feel drawn to women, and more and more I feel this is an energetic phenomena. Just like I feel that men can better balance their need to find receptivity for their strength, through spending time clearing and emptying their own receptive channels, so that their yang can circulate and flow from without to within, I wonder if the same could be helpful for women. If their receptivity tends to draw in yang from outside sources, then perhaps their own yang has become more stagnant, and if it would be loosened up and worked free, if their own yang cycling from without to within, might then not be as welcoming of a home for those who are looking for one.

 

I know it is hard for me to relate; that I only can in part. Just trying to help.

[Daeluin]

Oh, and I know I tend to write a lot of possibly complex ideas.  So following the principle I mentioned... if what I write doesn't resonate, please let it go at a surface level, without feeling the need to invite it deeper within.

[Daeluin]

So yang can choose to still itself, but what does yin do? It can't push the yang away without being yang itself... really all it can do is disappear.

 

Similar to pushing and pulling. When pushing something one can choose to stop pushing it. Maybe it keeps moving, but at that point it isn't a threat to the pusher. When pulling something one can stop pulling, but it can still keep moving toward oneself.

 

This is perhaps similar to the experience of anyone with pure energy, who might cultivate in nature, and then come to the city. It will be difficult for that person's purity to remain as it was. Yet if one keeps to what is most simple and humble, one will be less likely to draw attention and invite interactions that demand a deeper investment and exchange. The more invisible one appears to the vibrations one desires little contact with, the less one invites that contact.

 

Fear and evasion might be like running while still pulling something along behind, while with humility and frugality one avoids polarity and accepts all unconditionally, and yet appears invisible to those who are looking for something of value. If one values you, take steps to be of no value, even if in appearance alone, and they will lose their reason to bother you.

 

"There is an old saying that the water of a stream is clear and pure in the high mountains, while down in the plains it is no longer as clean. Spiritually, one should always set the highest standards and maintain oneself as purely as the water of the high mountains, but materially one should be satisfied with the most simple and basic of worldly conditions so as not to gather dirt or invite disturbance by unnecessarily playing in the mud and dust of the plains."

 

The Uncharted Voyage Toward the Subtle Light, Ni, Hua Ching: Chapter 30, The Harmonious Path of a Natural Society

 

 

 

My words are very easy to understand and easy to practice,

yet the world can neither understand nor practice them.

My words have only one source:

the subtle truth of the universe.

The people of the world have no knowledge of this.

Thus, they have no knowledge of me.

The fewer the persons that know me, the nobler are they that follow me.

Therefore, the one of whole virtue wears coarse clothes superficially,

 but holds a precious treasure within.

 

daodejing 70, Ni, Hua Ching

[3bob]

it's off topic but it was kind of sad to me that my daughters had to grow up so fast under various forms of peer pressure, thus they didn't have much time to enjoy just being kids... whereas a lot of boys tend to have more time to enjoy being kids -  heck even grown men often have more time to enjoy being kid like.   

[dawei]

So, here we sit... One person starting a thread about Inda being a metaphor for fear of the feminine - which, in a way, coincides with what was shared elsewhere by the same person regarding the heroes journey. Masculine comes in, and directs the discussion into a more literal understanding. Feminine quietly try to redirect. Feminine responds to feminine, gets shot down by masculine for words used. Feminine, in another form, tries to respond to feminine, and masculine asserts 'off topic' - when masculine is the one who redirected said topic in the first place. ***** Grrrrr

 

This can likely be a bit heavy for male appreciation and consumption but the thread is spot on in many ways.

 

In short, I take it as male inferiority complex playing out; males dominating others because what they might feel on a feminine level is that they are the counter-part to the dominatrix energy source.   The softer energy is immensely stronger, even if in the physical flesh they are able to be subjugated.  

 

Men will at some point, ultimately fear this... unless they are able to be dominated by it in the way as such they realize that the sun only means to nourish and the rain to replenish. 

[ilumairen]

it's off topic but it was kind of sad to me that my daughters had to grow up so fast under various forms of peer pressure, thus they didn't have much time to enjoy just being kids... whereas a lot of boys tend to have more time to enjoy being kids -  heck even grown men often have more time to enjoy being kid like.   

 

We've been 'off topic' for awhile now. It's nice to read of a father's love for his daughters.

[Arya]

Patriarchy is the best for society.

 

I'd like to remove all the divorce laws immediately and a lot of other laws which favor women overwhelmingly. Then husbands will have more power and ease of mind.

 

No way you can be feminist and 'empower' women if you're the least bit spiritual. The obvious nature of women slips by you. I'd say you're very ignorant who promote females in place of power.

Edited December 22, 2015 by Arya

[redcairo]

Daeluin,

 

I had a meditative experience that your words brought to mind. You were talking about the yin opening up, and would yang cloud or pollute it (I really, really dislike that latter concept) for example.

 

In the med I had met this guy who was all these funky colors that were constantly shifting - striped, dotted, and so on. Later I was more thoughtful and focused with him. He had said at one point that he was "integration."

 

Me: But if you’re integration, shouldn’t you be like… white or black or brown, some blend-result?  My guide suggested this is actually something I fundamentally misunderstood, and that affected my own 'allowing vulnerability.' 

 

True integration does not change the nature of energy in that way, he says. If it did, it would be removing the one energy and replacing it with another. True integration merely provides all the energy. You can then distribute this throughout your experience however you choose.

 

I think if yang were to so-called pollute yin it would not be that the yang was the problem, it would be that the yin had insufficient integrity to hold its own through the integration.

 

*

 

I don't know anything official about the Tao. I only have my own experiences and thoughts over the years to go on. But I don't care to think about yin as if it is passive to the point of nearly dead the way it seems like, in writing at least, some do. In fact, quite the opposite. Water is not passive at all, just because it is the opposite of fire. Cold is not passive at all, just because it is the opposite of hot.

 

There is a difference between something which has calm stillness -- even a stoic ever-waiting-ness -- versus something which is "nearly inert." I think the definition of yin has to some degree been messed up by yang minds defining it. Of course I can only go on the brief mentions I see in passing in forums like this as I don't study these topics formally.

 

My problem is I only speak English and I don't think we have words for how I feel about it. All our words tend to be action words, and things-negated words. 

 

I think of yin in myself and things around me at least as "silently inviting" -- there IS an actual force and power there, and it's equal to the yang. It is simply that it almost defines by its nature the truth of the interworlds which is, "Don't force it; seduce it." The force is on the outside. The seduction is a pulling from the inside, but the pulling is not 'manifest,' it's more the zero-point-energy you might say, infinite potential in every mote. it's more like an inherently tempting, innately inspiring thing.

 

I have as much power to pull yang into me, as yang has to push into me, the difference being that when yang does, he's going to think it's his own idea. :-)  Isn't that how it works in real life, too.