Dzogchen, superior to Tantra. Really...?

[Wells]

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Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[Wells]

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Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[doc benway]

I'm no expert but it is fact that Dzogchen is considered the "highest path" by Tibetan Buddhist and Bonpo authorities, not opinion. By labeling Dzogchen as higher, the intention is not to judge. The implication is not necessarily that Dzogchen is superior. Superior and inferior are relative labels that are only relevant to a specific individual at a specific time. The reason it is considered higher is that it teaches the most comprehensive, succinct, and direct view, meditation, conduct, and result as compared to all other paths. It is said that the practitioner who accomplishes Dzogchen, accomplishes all other paths simultaneously. 

 

It is also true that there are many similarities between some tantric teachings and Dzogchen teachings. One tantra I have been exposed to has language in it that points directly to the Dzogchen path. This was specifically pointed out during a teaching by a lama whose family has been associated with that specific tantra for millennia.

 

There is quite a bit of intertwining of the Dzogchen and tantric paths but there are also meaningful and important differences. The quotations above notwithstanding, the views and practices are different. I cannot comment on the result as I cannot claim to be that far along either path. The most important thing to keep in mind, I think, is that it is not helpful to judge one path as being superior or inferior to another other than for ourselves as individuals at specific times in our lives. What is far more important is to cultivate gratitude and commitment towards this precious and rare opportunity to connect with a teaching that can transform our lives, whether through sutric, tantric, or dzogchen paths.

[RigdzinTrinley]

The victorious ones say that emptiness

Undermines all dogmatic views,

Those who take a dogmatic view of emptiness

Are said to be incurable.

 

Root Verses of the Middle Way, XIII, 8

 

This beautiful verse of nagarjuna thought me to avoid exhausting myself trying to tie knots into the vast sky of pure dharma

[Bodhicitta]

Here is  Je Tsongkhapa commenting on this verse of Nagarjuna:

 

 You poor man! Having succumbed to seriously deviant views, and having

abandoned the direct path that leads to the city of liberation, you are constricted

by the serpent of fixation on entitihood and entitilessness as truly existent.

Thus you wander in cyclic existence, regarding the path into the forest of cyclic

existence as the path to liberation. Subject to condemnation by the noble ones,

instead you condemn them! Hey! The great lord of physicians and of the victors

has said that emptiness is the view that allows one to abandon and to eliminate

all grasping. This is the mere relinquishing of all views regarding things as

truly existent. And a mere relinquishing does not exist inherently! Thus it is

said that anyone who regards emptiness as inherently existent will accomplish

nothing; that is, he is incurable.

[Wells]

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Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[Apech]

Meaning?

 

 

Meaning Tsongkhapa misunderstood Madhyamaka (probably).

[Bodhicitta]

Meaning?

 

That Je Rinpoche supports and fleshes out the verse of Nagarjuna.

[Arya]

 

Edited December 16, 2015 by Arya

[RigdzinTrinley]

Tsongkhapa was a highly realized being who interpreted nagarjuna in a very unique way, I wouldn't judge his understanding because I'm simply in no position to judge

 

I posted this quote because without the correct "view" (darsana) discussing dzogchen or tantra, or why and how the one is higher then the other is nothing but exhausting; in my opinion I mean.

[Apech]

Tsongkhapa was a highly realized being who interpreted nagarjuna in a very unique way, I wouldn't judge his understanding because I'm simply in no position to judge

 

I posted this quote because without the correct "view" (darsana) discussing dzogchen or tantra, or why and how the one is higher then the other is nothing but exhausting; in my opinion I mean.

 

Leaving Tsongkhapa's 'unique' interpretation aside for a moment - I think perhaps the problem may be that the very idea that Dzogchen or Tantra are a 'system' is a bit confusing.  And certainly the idea that the goal of either is different is even more confusing.

 

Buddhism (especially Tibetan Buddhism as a broad approach) includes many 'means' to approach the same goal i.e. Buddhahood.  Beginning I suppose with the 4 Noble Truths.  In the time of the Buddha just hearing these for the first time was a cause for awakening.  In Tantra and Dzogchen all that is being distinguished (as far as I can see) is to either  a ) work on transforming energy or b ) return to the natural state without any intermediary process.

 

Of course there is a complexity of terminology and so on - but I think you will find that actual practitioners do both - and sometimes do both within the sae practice e.g. a tantric sadhana which involves or culminates in just sitting in the natural state.

Edited December 16, 2015 by Apech

[RigdzinTrinley]

I agree with all of this apech, totally 100%

 

My point is that without the correct view whichever method a practicioner uses won't cut through the samsaric construct

 

The Tibetan example is "throwing stones at a target in total darkness"

 

Maybe the practicioner can hit the target. probably he or she will just randomly through stones into the dark not hitting the target.

 

With the correct or pure view - its like throwing stones at a target with the aid of daylight, at least you know what the target is and where, and you also can know directly when you hit it and when not

 

Method without wisdom is poison says the Bodhisattvacharyavatara

[Apech]

I agree with all of this apech, totally 100%

 

My point is that without the correct view whichever method a practicioner uses won't cut through the samsaric construct

 

The Tibetan example is "throwing stones at a target in total darkness"

 

Maybe the practicioner can hit the target. probably he or she will just randomly through stones into the dark not hitting the target.

 

With the correct or pure view - its like throwing stones at a target with the aid of daylight, at least you know what the target is and where, and you also can know directly when you hit it and when not

 

Method without wisdom is poison says the Bodhisattvacharyavatara

 

 

You are right - and if I might add conduct also - living in the way of compassion and the 6 paramitas is good support for your practice to go the right way.

[Wells]

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Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[Wells]

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Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[Wells]

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Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[C T]

Tantra practice a fool-proof process? If only. 

 

The methodologies may be fool-proof, but the fools that think methodologies alone are enough, are not, unfortunately. 

 

The union of wisdom & compassion, in balance, is what will ensure a smooth continuity on the path. 

 

The key word is continuity. Progression... Integration. Basically whats required of tantric and Ati yoga. 

 

Without this continuity its only a shadow play. 

[Wells]

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Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[Wells]

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Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[RigdzinTrinley]

Wells,

 

The way I'm thought is different in many aspects. doesn't mean this way is correct of course

 

So I can't comment and I hope you will find what you are looking for in these teachings

[already]

There is no such thing as dzogchen being superior to tantra really...

Since everything is dzogchen how can be dzogchen  superior to itself ?

[Apech]

There is no such thing as dzogchen being superior to tantra really...

Since everything is dzogchen how can be dzogchen  superior to itself ?

 

How very Zen.

[already]

How very Zen.

How very dare you ?

[Apech]

How very dare you ?

 

 

Wild geese fly south, the summer is over.

[RigdzinTrinley]

In winter you shiver, in summer you sweat