Dzogchen, superior to Tantra. Really...?

[Wells]

.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[Tibetan_Ice]

Sorry, I have a limit of 107 k that I can upload so I was trying to reduce the file size, first by converting to jpeg, then gif..  

 

 

[Wells]

.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[Wells]

.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[Wells]

.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[ralis]

"To be in one single point means to be in the Natural State"....?

Who exactly wrote this instruction?

Tenzin Namdak?

 

To be in a single point implies limitations. A singularity.

[Wells]

.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[Apech]

I can't see the point (haha).

[forestofclarity]

Keep in mind that Dzogchen as practiced live and Dzogchen as discussed on the Taobums are not necessarily the same thing. 

 

 

Anyway I am pleased to be left alone to practice mahamudra with all this dzogchenism about which seems to have developed a life of its own.

[ralis]

I can't see the point (haha).

 

Therefor, there is no point.

[Apech]

Keep in mind that Dzogchen as practiced live and Dzogchen as discussed on the Taobums are not necessarily the same thing. 

 

 

Yes I shall keep that in mind.

[Wells]

.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[ralis]

Keep in mind that Dzogchen as practiced live and Dzogchen as discussed on the Taobums are not necessarily the same thing. 

 

You have to expand on that notion.

[Tibetan_Ice]

From "The Meditation on the Clear Light"

http://www.amazon.com/The-Meditation-Clear-Light-Transmission/dp/B0076WQZ8Q/ref=br_lf_m_vqzargrqwvb46k3_1_6_ttl?ie=UTF8&s=books 

 

 

  This teaching comes after the instructions on the body posture, keeping the breathing and eye gazes and how you keep in the natural state in one single point.  All those methods must not be lost, nor should you focus on something else. Focus on nothing, it is purely and clearly keeping on. That is the only means for the meditation - try to be as stable and familiar with this state as possible! To be in one single point means to be in the natural state. But first of all you have to know this natural state and how it has been perfected.  Without knowing this and just keeping in the empty nature or something else like emptiness is not enough. Emptiness, which is quite a popular term for indicating the the state of the empty mind, may be used but still it is not sure whether it is near to the Dzogchen view or not.  In the teaching, the THIGLE Nyagchik (thig le nyag gcig) or single point in the meditation means that everything is perfected in the natural state. That should be known! And also how is it perfected? And what perfection means? Without this knowledge and its importance to experience in ones practices, just keeping in a unspeakable and unthinkable state, even it is a kind of meditation, it is unsure whether your meditation will be successful or not. 

 

 

and then later in the chapter called "The Method of the Breathing":

 

 

2.2.  The Reasons for practicing with Tsa, Lung and Thigle

Del Jong Gopa Gyutsen

(de la sbyong dgos pa'i rgyu mtshan)

  What is important is mainly the central channel and in that the Wisdom-Bliss Wind is trying to be integrated with the Pure Self-Awareness Thigle. When this Rigpa' Thigle is inserted in the central channel, then outside visions (snang ba) will appear to you and inside you will have various experiences or Nyam (nyams).

Then here follows a citation from the Donma Drug (sGron ma drug) or Six Lamps, which is one of the most important root texts of the Dzogchen Shang Shung Nyen Gyu, because most of these explanations from these texts: 

 

If you practice and learn in this way,

then there is no mistaken path,

because everything comes from the central channel and

is abiding there: therefore there can be no mistake.

 

The primordial basis or Kungzhi is the very essential part,

Therefore there cannot be any possible

mistake for the existence. 

 

Where does it abide? 

In the center of the heart!

Rays and lights come from it through the channel and

look like visions or appearances. 

These are none other than the Kungzhi itself, abide!

It exists in your body and everywhere externally too,

But you cannot see it - what exists in reality -,

because you are deluded,

obscured (by ignorance) like clouds.

The central channel does not know any obstructions, 

it raises like the clear blue sky: 

the nature of the central channel is always bright and clear,

this great nature which appears undisturbed. 

 

 

  All and everything is important from the main practice and the methods to develop it, but the most important thing is the reason why?  This is because all things are just an illusion, not only the kind of visions which we explain here, but everything else too, all appearances of ourselves and of all phenomena. Seeing the visions is the great evidence for this. If only one could explain this to the scientists. 

Edited December 23, 2015 by Tibetan_Ice

[Apech]

Therefor, there is no point.

 

 

The winner get's one point, the runner up two.

[doc benway]

You've all made your points...

[Apech]

You said that very pointedly.

[Tibetan_Ice]

And btw, "focus on nothing" might bring you Shunyata but for the Natural State,

this instruction lacks the point of self-awareness.

The Natural State is empty & self-aware.

Hi Wells,

  You want instructions with self-awareness? 

 

This is from "The Main Dzogchen Practices - Lopon Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche"

 

 

 

12 The General Instructions 

I. The General Instructions for the Main Practice of Abiding by the Primordially Pure Perfection 

I.1. The Direct Introduction to the Dzogchen View of the Fundamental Base as the Nature Ranglug Kunzhi'i Tuba Ngotropa (rang lugs kun gzhii lta ba ngo sprod pa) 

 

This morning I was talking about the common base of the view of tantra and Dzogchen. Generally this view is beyond consciousness, thoughts and speech. The only way you can recognize this state is to create one thought. It does not matter which kind of thought it is, whatever thought comes up, just watch and look at what is arising and dissolving back. Then you cannot find anything. There is no color, no form, no source, no origin, nothing at all. It is 'without characteristics (mtshan med). There is nothing there, only the unspeakable state of being. That is the common base of tantra and Dzogchen. Sometimes this is called Hedewa (had de ba). Maybe you are already familiar with this term because it is quite popular these days. Hedewa itself is not important, neither for the view of Dzogchen or for the view of tantra. Hedewa can also come after doing very hard work when you suddenly have a rest. At that moment, after work has been done and before you are planning anything for your next work, between there, is this unspeakable state. It looks like Hedewa and it could be Hedewa but it is not the same state which is unspeakable beyond words and descriptions ('dzin med chen po), spoken of as the base (kun gzhi). This experience of the state of Hedewa it is not the same. However, in that experience in which thoughts disappear, the natural state comes. If you are very clear (rig pa'i gsal) in that state then it is completely different. Clarity means without subject and object, without any kind of thought (mi rtog pa). After that there cannot be any recognition of anything being an object nor a subject, all thoughts have completely disappeared. The only thing in this state is clarity. This is the base you must have now. Is it clear to you now? So, this state is called the common base of both Dzogchen and tantra. This does not particularly belong to Dzogchen or to tantra, this is their common base which can also be applied to the view of Mahamudra (phyag rgya chen po). But do not think of it as something very special! 

 

Now, as we are talking about the special view of Dzogchen (rdzogs chen), this is the difficult part to understand here. After the dissolution of all thoughts there is no subject and no object and no influence of the consciousness but still it is clear to the practitioner. How it can be clear? It is itself clear or self-clear! In Tibetan this is called rangrig (rang rig), self-aware. This is not very common in other teachings and views. It is a very, very particular view of being self-aware. In Dzogchen the example given for being self-clear is the lamp (mar me); if you light up a lamp it gives light and it is itself self-clear. It can both light up itself and give out light. There is no need to be either subject or object, etc.. This self-clarity of the lamp is given as the example for the Dzogchen view. Often when you are receiving the introduction to Dzogchen you are shown a lamp as a symbol; this is one very famous example. If you understand what self-awareness means then self is the nature, the base, which is unspeakable and it is itself clear. It is not influenced by consciousness and by the mind. Then you have to be satisfied without any influence of consciousness and wisdom. Sometimes in this text it is also called wisdom, yeshe (ye shes) but this is not the same wisdom (as ordinary worldly wisdom) as it is not very common. It is in particular in itself; this wisdom is the empty nature and the wisdom of self-awareness (rang rig ye shes); it is aware and clear. In order to explain it we sometimes have to use words and concepts but do not think that this state has anything to do with the consciousness at all. So, itself is aware and clear. It is clear, empty and unification all three inseparable, as one. While you are into the nature or whatever you were to call it, be it meditation (sgom pa) or recognition (rtogs pa), it self recognizes itself. There is no need for subject and object, without knowing and without experience, everything is included in one single way. There is nothing to know about it from anywhere. It is therefore called One Single Sphere or Thigle Nyacig (thig le nyag cgig). This means one single point; there is no need for a subject, nor for an object, not even being inseparable. Only itself! 

 

This single point means it is without any connection to substance or consciousness, be it rough or subtle, be it a conceptual recognition or an inner awareness, mental consciousness, mind or any emotions. It is beyond of all of these things. This is a very hard thing to understand and believe for any kind of philosophical schools and traditions because normally you need to have a sharp mind. They are convinced that as much as your mind is sharp and hard and clear that much you are able to bring you into knowledge. In this case however it is completely beyond any kind of mind and consciousness regardless of how sharp, clear and subtle it may be! Therefore in the Dzogchen teachings the example of the lamp is given and the expression of single point is used for this state. There are not several things or some things joined together. Most of the time even the word clarity is explained that you have to have some kind of consciousness, wisdom or awareness in order to be in a clear state of mind. But here only clarity or pure awareness are used which is not at all comparable to any kind of consciousness. If you use some kind of consciousness this consciousness always perceives some kind of object, etc.. It doesn't matter if it is a subtle form of object or a coarse one. The system implying consciousness always perceives something. As this state of Dzogchen is completely beyond of all these, there is not any kind of object nor subject, etc. It is itself the completely open state! In order to explain this state we still use words like clarity (gsal ba), emptiness (stong pa) and unification (dbyer med). This is only for the reason of explanation. If we do not say anything nobody can understand it even if it is already very deeply within us, wherever consciousness is there is this nature, but it does not help unless you understand it and have trust in it. 

 

It is not very easy to realize this nature. Sometimes you wake up suddenly and you experience an unspeakable state like Hedewa. You cannot describe it. There is not even a thought about it. But this state is not realization of the nature at all. This is only the basic alaya (kun gzhi rnam par shes pa). This is not similar to the nature of this base. So only explaining to somebody about the nature does not help very much. But it can be helpful when you do this while being on the path. If you don't go along the path however you don't have any experience of it. In a similar way, I can explain something to you here but if you are not practicing and you are only following my words it doesn't give you the real meaning and the actual fact which is reliable. You will alway be searching and thinking "Maybe it is like this!" or "Maybe is it like that?" There is always a doubt! Doubt cannot catch the real nature. 

 

We are always saying that this nature is like the sky or the space. It has no edge and no center. There is a saying that an elephant cannot enter into a mouse hole. This means the nature has limitations or restrictions like an elephant being the bigger than a mouse hole. Our mind is compared to this, being only small like a mouse hole and therefore only good for trapping small things within its hole. It therefore cannot catch the whole thing, the nature. This shows the meaning of the nature being completely beyond the mind and consciousness. 

 

All the different ways and schools of the Nine Ways of Bon (theg pa rim dgu) have their own view and try to realize the real nature. Sometimes I think that this is something to be searched for scientifically by the scientists as the real goal of all existence. That would be a useful research work! That could be the integration of Dzogchen with the work of scientists. 

 

This clarity has to be clear to itself. In this everything that exists is clear. When you realize this then everything that you see is perfected. Also in the Thogal (thod rgal) methods, visions come and are the evidence for this. These visions never come from anywhere else other than this nature and they naturally show the vision of our nature. It is the evidence. This shows us that everything is like this in the outer world. 

 

From one side this is very difficult to understand. On the other side, even believing that this is possible is quite hard because everything you learn and know in general is through the mind. Normally for understandig everything the mind is used. So suddenly it says here no-mind (sems med) is needed to be there and it is completely beyond the consciousness. But still it is clear! So, this clarity is especially for the Dzogchen view and has to be distinguished from the clarity of tantra. Tantra additionally needs the visualization of many things; seed syllables, symbols, divinities, colors and forms to integrate with the empty nature or base. In Dzogchen however this base only needs to be clear to yourself, then this base has perfected all kind of things, good things, bad things or any existence. How do you recognize that everything exists perfected within this nature? This is not done by explaining them only with words but by experiencing them through the use of the different Thogal methods. Then as you practice with these methods and with this base it appears to you as visions. All these visions are perfected with this nature. That is the evidence! 

 

As far as you practice with these special Thogal methods, visions spontaneously come from this nature. Those visions never come from the external or from somewhere else without a connection to this nature. Everything is connected to this nature. That is the evidence! So even our living conditions, our universe and all phenomenal existence, everything is connected with this. How it is connected is shown by the evidence of the Thogal practice. The evidence is the appearance of visions without any source. Only the individual practitioner can see those visions. Those visions are not far from the basic nature; it is actually the same thing - this basic nature and the form visions. It doesn't matter which forms appear to you, be they divinities or just normal trees, water, fire or anything else. The visions coming do not make much difference as they are of the same nature. This nature and the nature of the state are not very different from each other. It looks like the nature of the state has already formed visions but this nature and its visions are the same thing. This inseparable state of the natural state and the visions is called empty form (snang stong). The more and more you practice, the more the visions get clearer until they look more reliable. Also our normal visions finally become integrated with these until they become completely the same. Finally all these visions are empty forms and go back to the nature. They are not always there, not staying permanently there. At that same time as when all these visions are disappearing back (into the nature) the practitioner is ready to realize the rainbow body. This means that when all the visions are integrated, everything, including the elements and the physical body, when everything is integrated into the nature, into the Thogal visions, this is called the rainbow body (ja' lus). 

 

There are two names for one thing, both of them being inseparable, the empty nature (stong pa gzhi) and the spontaneously appearing visions (lhun grub snang ba). Being stable in the nature is called Trekcho and the increasing visions appearing spontaneously are called Thogal; these two are inseparable. Naturally each are integrated within the other. They are not separated. It is not possible to separate them. They are like water and wetness. These two methods of practice have to be very stable. Otherwise it is just a fantastic story. You can talk about it and it may look interesting to speculate about the visions; if they are there or not but everything is within your doubt without any experience. But if you practice continuously in this way it comes more and more to yourself. Practice is needed for proving it to yourself. First of all you have to learn properly and you have to recognize without doubts and secondly you have to practice with determination. It is not enough to practice for only a few months, or one or two years. When you practice continuously you will have some experiences and some signs with significance like visions or movements in front of your eyes or to your eye-doors. Then do not be surprised because these are only small and simple things. It is just the beginning. As far as you practice as far your visions and your stability of meditation are developing hand in hand. This means that even your manner of behavior should be changing. It says that you cannot have your normal manner any longer. This is one thing how to develop your practice with the nature. 

 

1.2. The Practice of Naturally Abiding within the Spontaneously Perfected Empty Forms Ne Lhundrup Tongpa Nangwa (gnas lhun grub stong pa snang ba) Going back to this nature one must first of all distinguish between this nature in the tantra and in Dzogchen. Dzogchen recognizes that everything is completely perfected with the ten paramitas, bodhicitta etc.. That is the main thing! Even tantra sometimes uses the same word perfected (rdzogs pa) or spontaneously accomplished (lhun grub) but its meaning there is quite different from the meaning in Dzogchen. According to the Dzogchen view it is not necessary to check if this nature is perfected or how it is perfected within this nature when you practice with this nature. In Dzogchen you recognize your natural state and leave it as it is. This means, without an object and a subject, inseparable in a single point, which we called thigle nyakcig before. While practicing, the practitioner should know what he is doing and what his meditation is. In this meditation the nature has perfected all the ten paramitas. This is very important and you have to know this. When you continue to practice without clearly knowing what is perfected and what the real meaning of being perfected is within this nature it will not be helpful. This nature is always with us. Not only with us but also within everything and everybody, always being integrated within this nature. This nature has no size and no from - it is everywhere from the biggest animal to the tiniest insect. It does not matter if it is bigger or smaller; it is not made bigger by a big animal like an elephant and not smaller by a small insect because the nature has no size. This basic nature is everywhere and it is integrated with all different beings. But even though it is like that it doesn't help if one does not know it. Being beyond explanation the nature is spontaneously perfected. To realize this you keep in meditation without thinking. First of all you leave your mind free of thoughts and doing nothing (mi rtog pa). With your eyes open you stay in your state for a little while. When you stay in this state some thoughts spontaneously appear without any plan. Where do they coming from? What do they look like? This is beyond explanation! Something comes and stays for some time and then soon after it disappears again. Where does it disappearing to? It disappears into the same source from where it comes from. There is no special place to go. 

  

 

 

How is that? 

Edited December 25, 2015 by Tibetan_Ice

[Wells]

.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[Wells]

.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[Tibetan_Ice]

Hi Wells,

  Here is more from "The Main Dzogchen Practices" - Lopon Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche,  about why Dzogchen is 'higher' than tantra. 

 (bolding is mine)

 

The General Instructions 19 

 

virtues and wisdom. Both of them are spontaneously perfected within this nature. As much as you practice and as far as you become stable and clear in your meditation that much all the negative emotions and defilements are removed and the accumulation of virtues and wisdom are developed spontaneously.

 

This is the real nature, the base of Dzogchen which is pure and spontaneously perfected. In other words its methods on the path (lam gyi thabs) are called Trekcho and Thogal, knowledge and appearance, but here in the base (gzhi) we use the expressions kadak (ka dag) and Ihundrup (Ihun grub). If you are really interested in these things it is only for one purpose, the final goal or fruit ("bras bu) of Buddhahood (sangs rgyas), which is literally purifying all negative emotions (sangs pa) and defilements and developing all pure qualities and knowledge (rgyas pa). That is all attained at the same time while practicing the natural state. Tantra does not recognize this perfection. It always tries to additionally visualize and add something with the process of the generating phase, kyed rim (bskyed rim) and the completion state, dzog rim (rdzogs rim). Although these practitioners know very well the nature and the two causes for attaining Buddhahood they always think that something is lacking and missing; there is no trust in this nature. They therefore think that something has to be added through visualization and other means in order to complete it.

 

In Dzogchen perfect means everything is completely perfected -naturally. There is nothing artificially to add to or visualizing something additionally. Dzogchen is always criticizing tantra because tantra always visualizes the deity and its mandala, either in front of you or as yourself, but this is all created by yourself and according to your wishes. It should be like this or look like that. Although you are not the real divinity you think you are the divinity. All that is only according to your wishes and created by yourself.

 

Dzogchen has nothing to create and no visualization is needed; there is no influence of any kind. Even when we are using body posture, breathing and mind everything is integrated into the nature. And from this nature the visions in Thogal arise. You cannot squeeze the visions, they come as much as you have practiced. In order to achieve this, the methods of Trekcho and Thogal have to be applied. You cannot separate these two. It is like milk and butter, you cannot separate.

 

There exist explanations which explain these two separately. However, this is for the practitioner's understanding of Trekcho) and Thogal. In order to have a concrete understanding of these methods both are explained separately, one after the other. But in reality, in the nature they are not separate. In the nature emptiness, clarity and appearance are in union. The clarity of Trekcho and the appearance or vision of Thogal are inseparable (dbyer med). This is true for everything which spontaneously appears. Both of these are the nature and Dzogchen. 

[Tibetan_Ice]

This topic reminded me of a book called "Masters of the Zhang Zhung Nyengyud" - Teachings by "Yongzdin Lopon Tenzin Namdak. 

 

http://www.amazon.com/Masters-Nyengyud-Yongdzin-October-Hardcover/dp/B015X3X8YI

 

 

 

 

136 Masters of the Zhang Zhung Nyengyud 

33. Ponchen Lhundrub Muthur 

Ponchen Muthur was a very great Tantric practitioner and most of the time he was occupied with Tantric practice. Even though he had received this Teaching, he was very interested in the power of Tantra and didn't concentrate properly on practising Dzogchen. He lived as a nomad with cattle, sheep, goats and so on. He had one white goat which looked after all the animals and a white female yak which looked after all the yaks so thanks to the power of his Tantric practice, there was no need to employ anyone. The animals looked after themselves. That was how he lived, but at the end of his life he didn't disappear but left the body behind. Just before his death he remembered how his Master had flown away as a cuckoo and realized that he himself hadn't practised Dzogchen properly but it was too late.180 Nevertheless, he was a very powerful, renowned Tantric practitioner. 

Yongdzin Rinpoche comments: He practised Dzogchen once he had received the Experiential Teachings from Pon Tsenpo, but he didn't practise it seriously; he mainly practised Zhang Zhung Meri Tantra. Before he passed away, he said he was disappointed in three points: 

 

  - He didn't concentrate on Dzogchen practice and that was a mistake for his practice.

 

  - He was always .proud of showing his powers which had come from practising Tantra. But that was not enough, so he was disappointed.

 

  - He had wanted his life to be worthwhile and to be a great Dzogchen practitioner not a Tantrist, but he practised Tantra as well as Dzogchen and had great Tantric powers, so everyone knew him because of his power and came to him because of that. He was very proud and that had spoilt his life a little bit. He was very sorry for that.181 

 

He said honestly: 'I received very precious things but I didn't practise properly so now it is very late'. These three points were disappointments for him. 1.4 He said this very honestly. Modern lamas don't speak like this, but in those times he was very honest.' 82 

 

 

180 That is to say that he did not achieve Rainbow Body. Up to Lhundrub Muthur all Lineage-Masters of the Zhang Zhung Nyengyud achieved this realization. After him some Masters did whereas others didn't. However, even those Masters who did not realize Rainbow Body still attained an extremely advanced level of realization and so Yongdzin Rinpoche made this point while teaching Nyams brgyud 'bring po sor bzhag, the medium version of Nyamgyud: 'Don't think that he is just a Tantric practitioner, not a very good Dzogchen Master; he is good enough for us!' (Namdak, Yongdzin Lopon Tenzin Rinpoche. Dringpo Sorzhag, Chapter II: The Clothes, Pith Instructions of Zhang Zhung Nyen Gyud Masters, Blanc, 15th — 17th September 2002, Trnscr. & ed. Carol Ermakova and Dmitry Ermakov (Blou, Shenten Dargye Ling, 2006), Week 3, p. 65.) 181 Extracted from: Ibid., Week 3, pp.60-61. 182Extracted from: Namdak, Yongdzin Lopon Tenzin Rinpoche. Teachings on Zhang Zhung Nyen Gyud and Namkha Truldzo, Vimoutiers, 24 August — 11 September 2004, Trnscr. & ed. Carol Ermakova and Dmitry Ermakov (Blou, Shenten Dargye Ling, 2006), Dringpo Sorzhag: Chapters VI — VII, pp. 53-54 (p. 44 Second Edition).

 

 

Edited December 25, 2015 by Tibetan_Ice

[Wells]

.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[Wells]

.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[Tibetan_Ice]

Thanks for the input!

I agree, I always questioned the worth of all the visualization practice in Tantra.

That is not to say that there is no value in visualization. Namdak himself states that for beginners, ngondro and guru yoga are good practices.. Also, the meditation of the clear light involves visualization, as he mentions later in the book.

 

From my current understanding, the natural state is nonduality, as it is a state which is beyond normal consciousness in which there is no subject or object (as namdak has stated). Any visualization practice involves working with the subject and object and is an act of consciousness. You have to go beyond consciousness..

 

From what I understand, there seems to be a few methods of working one's self into the natural state. The first is samadhi, where the subject and object fuse together and explode/dissolve. Another method is to completely let go of everything, lose interest in all sensations, emotions, desires, thoughts and visions and become a dispassionate observer only... Absolutely no "doer", no motion. Another method is to spend years of mantra repetition while visualizing the mantra, watching carefully until you see the space of rigpa that surrounds the visualizations. This is the non dual space of rigpa, baby rigpa. It is just beyond the level of "intuition".

 

I think most people cannot just go for Dzogchen because it is too difficult to realize the natural state and stay there. Conceptual thought comes in very fast and it is hard to stay thought free unless you learn how to stabilize.

 

 

It is like Tsoknyi Rinpoche suggested.. Turn your attention back inwards and in the first few moments you will experience rigpa, the point before your conceptual mind kicks in. Then, when you have a thought, quit. Try again a few minutes later. Many short attempts spaced out throughout he day will eventually grow into longer experiences of rigpa..

 

It's that pure fresh pristine awareness free from the conceptual phenomenon that you are seeking to stabilize in.

 

Starting at the top, failing, then going lower to tantra, and even to sutra is one method. I tried that many times. Many times I start over from the bottom and work my way back up.

 

At the end of the "Main practices of Dzogchen" that I keep referring to, Namdak presents clear light methods which involve visualization, the central channel etc. He even includes another somewhat dangerous method of pressing on the arteries in the neck to bring on the natural state, but it is dangerous and you could die.

 

On another note, visualization is a great thing to develop, because, according to Daskalos, after you die and go to the astral plane, you create your environment through visualization. Visualization is one of the best abilities to develop in this lifetime.

 

I know his terminology is somewhat non-Buddhist and a tad bit Christian, but the content is easily transferable..

 

http://www.researchersoftruth.org/teachings/visualization

 

Visualization

By learning to observe carefully and to concentrate fully, the ability to visualize properly becomes easier. Some bemoan the fact that they cannot visualize, but in fact we all visualize subconsciously in the creation of elementals. This is the way we create our world. There is nothing more powerful than thought, and visualization is the process of harnessing thought in a constructive manner for the expansion of consciousness and aiding others in need. Imprint ether is used to shape etheric vitality into psycho­ noetical images and is therefore vital to our work in visualization. Using imprint ether we are able to memorize and store images.

Visualization is a language of the Divine, the "key" to the kingdoms (Rev.3:7). After learning to observe carefully and to concentrate fully, we gain the ability to visualize con­sciously. We shape etheric vitality to create elementals, from psychic-noetical images to entire scenes. Through visualization, in healing work, we learn to materialize and de­materialize. There is nothing more powerful than thought, and visualization is the process of harnessing thought in a constructive manner for the expansion of the self and to aid others in need.

Proper visualization is indispensable in our work as I have always insisted. It is one of the "keys" (cf. Matt 16:19) that so many speculate about. The exercises and meditations (in the Esoteric Practice book) all require the ability to visualize: to form psycho-noetical super-substance into the creation of objects and situations. For those unfamiliar with the work of visualization we will provide basic guidance leading into more advanced work. We must not be overly intimidated by the importance of visualization. All things will come in time.

Perhaps the most important skill for performing an exercise is the ability to form psycho-noetical images and scenes. This work is otherwise known as visualization. Psycho-noetical images are elementals constructed of Mind super-substance at varying rates of frequency. Once created, an image has a real, multi-dimensional existence that is far more durable than any gross material object.

We must not confuse this holy work with fantasy. In shaping substance (using kinetic, creative, imprint and sensate ethers) we seek to replicate the work of the Logos and the Holy Spirit by faithfully reproducing noetic forms. Visuali­zation is used as a vehicle to expand our consciousness, as it is the language between the mundane and the Divine. By constructing specific forms and settings we allow for inter­action with Divine energies. Visualization, additionally, is indispensable in healing work for invoking images of health and perfection where illness and disease have set in.

Archangels are constantly creating such images, in accordance with the Divine forms, when they shape universes and worlds, and when they form angels to watch over their work. Our ability to form these images is a most Divine gift and privilege that we need to fully develop with reverence.

 

i could go on about the need to develop the ability to visualize, but I'll stop here.