Dzogchen, superior to Tantra. Really...?

[Apech]

The emptiness - luminosity
is mind in its basic being
Luminosity - emptiness is awareness
when this is pointed out
They fuse in the depths of the uncontrived mind
you're home free in the native state
I do not go checking on meditation
to see if mine is good and yours is bad
This mind that's not tampered with, left uncontrived 
is when feeling good feels just right

                                                         Milarepa

[Wells]

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[Wells]

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[9th]

The most basic difference between tantric practice and mahamudra or dzogchen practice is that in the world of tantra, you are generating and dissapating and manipulating energy - i.e. "transforming the poison into medicine".  In the world of dzogchen or mahamudra, there is no transformation or manipulation.  Negative states are negative, positive states are positive, and there is no external moral imperative or rule-based thinking happening as in the standard buddhist precepts.  The practice is referred to as "self-liberating" because there is no effort or manipulations involved.  It requires doing without doing.  It is "superior" because it is the most direct path possible, the most efficient use of your time.  However, almost everyone will need to become fluent and proficient with the foundation practices of hinayana, mahayana, and vajrayana before they can begin to consider these practices.  They are the "highest" because they are the last step, the final teachings.

 

 

[Wells]

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[Wells]

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[Tibetan_Ice]

-> trash can!

 

So the object becomes "bright and clear" without you looking at it?

Do you think at it, a picture in your mind or what?

 

And how is this "geomanty exercise" a logical step from "withdrawel of the senses" towards the goal of yoga (see Sutra no. 2)?

How is "bliss" and "being gone" the goal of Yoga?

How should an object help in achieving the goal of Yoga?

I'm talking Hindu yoga here, Patanjali, samadhi, concentration, effort, not Dzogchen which is the opposite..

Withdrawal of the senses is pratyahara, which is what happens when you succeed in becoming one pointed. It is very noticeable, usually after about twenty minutes of solid concentration. It feels like a wave of energy goes through the body and then it is gone, dissolved away.

The technique I used is to visualize a letter, the letter "l". You visualize it and keep focusing on it. You make it real.

After the senses shut off, you keep focusing on the letter with all your effort.

I mention the bliss because right before you fuse into the letter, that is what I experienced.

Of course, the eyes are closed and you sit with spine straight.

 

In Hindu yoga, there are many goals. If you perform the true samyama on a flower, for example, you will learn many things about the flower. There is a whole list of siddhis that are gained from samyama on various objects, elements. The ultimate is to perform samyama on your self..

 

The equivalent or similar method of meditation in Buddhism is called shamatha, which also confers the siddhis..

[Wells]

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[Tibetan_Ice]

Hint:

The Seer and the Seen are "fused together" (or rather the Seer identifies with the Seen).

That's the source for all misery.

Fused, dissolved into a sun of very bright light, gone, no more consciousness, blown away..

 

It a meditative experience that comes and goes. When you return from it, you are disoriented and are left wondering "what was that?". I think the dharma overground calls it the arising and passing.. A&P

[Wells]

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[ralis]

Siddhis as described by Patanjali (levitation, becoming invisible, walking on water, mastery of the material world, remaining unharmed by any material force) happen naturally all the time in the presence of an accomplished Yogi, who entered repeatedly  seedless Samadhi.

Samadhi is a buzzword like Kundalini-Awakening.

I'd like to see any of all the guys, who claim to have entered Samadhi, demonstrate their siddhis.

 

They all demonstrate their "impressive" levitation "siddhi".

Yeah right...

 

 

 

I know someone that has spent a fortune at Fairfield Iowa studying at the Maharishi Institute learning to fly and levitate. He is still grounded. That video must have been filmed there.

[Wells]

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[ralis]

I can' remember specific names, but yogis who hang out in extensive samadhi need students to tend to their bodily needs for extended periods of time.

[Wells]

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[Tibetan_Ice]

Siddhis as described by Patanjali (levitation, becoming invisible, walking on water, mastery of the material world, remaining unharmed by any material force) happen naturally all the time in the presence of an accomplished Yogi, who entered repeatedly seedless Samadhi.

Samadhi is a buzzword like Kundalini-Awakening.

I'd like to see any of all the guys, who claim to have entered Samadhi, demonstrate their siddhis.

 

They all demonstrate their "impressive" levitation "siddhi".

Yeah right...

 

Ya. That is bogus. Reminds me of TM and the Maharishi..

 

When I was a teenager, I obtained instructions on how to levitate:

 

Sit in full lotus.

Visualize a white chord starting at the throat chakra, going up to the start the skull, then forward to the upper lip, then up to ajna, then back to the center of the crown.

Repeat the mantra HAM.

 

I did this meditation for a month, every day for an hour.

Towards the end, my body would dissolve and a current of energy that resembled an upside down water fall appeared starting from the center of the neck, straight up the sushumna. It was a definite force, pulling upward.

 

The problem was, when the body dissolves, you feel like you could be levitating, but you don't know for sure..

 

However, I could see that it may be possible to perfect that up-pulling-energy to the point where you could levitate. But, it was so damn hard and required too much effort and concentration for me at the time. I mean, I only succeeded when I tried so hard that it was like fighting for my life or some other urgent task.. 200% effort!

 

Patanjali: http://www.swamij.com/yoga-sutras.htm

[Wells]

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[Wells]

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[Tibetan_Ice]

Video camera...?

In 1972?

[ralis]

In 1972?

 

There were 8mm cameras then.

Edited January 2, 2016 by ralis

[Wells]

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[ralis]

Dude has "hundreds of centers".

How many foolish & highly deluded students does that equate?

LOL! :lol: 

 

To continue in delusion costs a lot of money and the TM people always have their hands out to receive.

[ralis]

 

23:50:

"If Maharishi Mahesh Yogi can fly with his spiritual powers,

why should he have six helicopters to fly around India?"

:lol:

 

I really like the uniforms. Must make it extra special to feel part of an elite group of flyers.

[Wells]

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[ralis]

19:53

They even have a deluded QUANTUM SCIENTIST supporting their group!!!   

I hope he at least gets a lot of money from Maharishi for his "uplifting" support!

 

The physicist in question belongs to the 'Natural Law' political party. He ran for president here years ago. He seems way too spaced out and passive. 

Edited January 2, 2016 by ralis

[Apech]

Any chance for getting back on topic - I'm all for witty repartee but just putting each other down ... meh.