Dzogchen, superior to Tantra. Really...?

[dawei]

Any chance for getting back on topic - I'm all for witty repartee but just putting each other down ... meh.

 

I agree.  A bit of cleanup done.

 

A rather interesting topic if we could keep to it

[Apech]

Ok forgetting the yogic flying incident for a moment - I think sometimes the issue with the dzogchen/mahamudra view or approach (and I include mahamudra because I know more about it) is that it sometimes sounds like 'no-thought' Zen.  I suspect that the sudden Zen approach is an infiltration from Daoism.  There was a significant debate in Tibet which is usually portrayed as a debate about 'sudden versus gradualist' approaches for Tibetan Buddhism, which the Ch'an (Zen) side lost.  But I suspect this debate was really about 'are we aligning our Buddhism to India or to China'.  And was in fact more of a political debate than people realise.

 

A lot is spoken about the influence of Buddhism on Daoist schools (like Complete Reality) but not much about the impact of Daoism on Buddhism.

 

(sorry if this is a bit garbled - slightly rushed for time).

 

For those who think there was no Ch'an in Tibet this is a good book on the subject

 

http://www.amazon.com/Tibetan-Zen-Discovering-Lost-Tradition/dp/1559394463/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1451818607&sr=8-1&keywords=Tibetan+Zen

[Tibetan_Ice]

Ok forgetting the yogic flying incident for a moment - I think sometimes the issue with the dzogchen/mahamudra view or approach (and I include mahamudra because I know more about it) is that it sometimes sounds like 'no-thought' Zen. I suspect that the sudden Zen approach is an infiltration from Daoism. There was a significant debate in Tibet which is usually portrayed as a debate about 'sudden versus gradualist' approaches for Tibetan Buddhism, which the Ch'an (Zen) side lost. But I suspect this debate was really about 'are we aligning our Buddhism to India or to China'. And was in fact more of a political debate than people realise.

 

A lot is spoken about the influence of Buddhism on Daoist schools (like Complete Reality) but not much about the impact of Daoism on Buddhism.

 

(sorry if this is a bit garbled - slightly rushed for time).

 

For those who think there was no Ch'an in Tibet this is a good book on the subject

 

http://www.amazon.com/Tibetan-Zen-Discovering-Lost-Tradition/dp/1559394463/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1451818607&sr=8-1&keywords=Tibetan+Zen

There is certainly a misunderstanding that "no thought" is something to be striven for in Dzogchen.

However, the goal is not "no thought" but recognizing the rigpa which encompasses all.

 

From Ground, Path and Fruition:

 

". All of you have already heard a lot of dharma teaching so you probably know of these things and I won't speak much about this. However, there is one point that is very difficult, the most difficult. Within the context of mind there is the particular point of the liberation of mind. You need to understand this well; if you do not understand it well, it will give you a lot of difficulty.

 

To sit and meditate is not that difficult—to do shamatha meditation or to stay in meditation on emptiness is not hard—but to have liberation in the context of discursive thoughts arising—that is difficult. Your meditation must be capable of providing liberation while discursive thoughts are arising. This is so important that I will repeat this; your meditation needs to be capable of providing liberation while discursive thoughts are arising. And again, your meditation needs to be capable of providing liberation while discursive thoughts are arising!! With a good understanding of this point your meditation will come along well. Other than that and without exception, as we say in Tibet, "Practice and the practitioner's mind have become two different things".

 

...

 

We do not have control over the arising of discursive thoughts. Discursive thoughts do not arise according to a schedule; they can and do arise at any time whatsoever. Exactly in accordance with that, meditation needs to be something which can and does arise at any time whatsoever. In other words, given that the arising of discursive thoughts is unscheduled, to have meditation which is liberating we need a meditation in which the arising of discursive thoughts comes together with the meditation and the meditation comes together with the arising of discursive thoughts.

 

This point of liberation that I am discussing will be understood by the majority of people not through mind but through mind's essence. What is mind and how does it function? Mind is the coming together of three things: an outer object, an intermediary sense power, and a mental consciousness. What is the essence of that mind? The essence of mind has the qualities of emptiness, of clarity, and of the two unified—where unified means that they cannot be separated. Whenever someone recognizes those three qualities together, that is called the exp-erience of rigpa or the recognition of rigpa. This term rigpa is very sacred, very important.

 

...

 

Falling under the sway of emptiness means that you have be­come stuck in emptiness. When you are stuck on the emptiness side, thoughts do not have a chance to come up. We need discursive thoughts because discursive thoughts are wisdom.

 

However, when discursive thoughts come along with grasping that is not all right. What we need is discursive thoughts without grasping because that is the factor of wisdom. If we are stuck in emptiness, there is no pathway for the wisdom to appear, is there? Being stuck in emptiness is not the same as having a view of nihilism. Here I am talking about how, in the context of meditation, you could become stuck in emptiness by remaining in a state of nothing whatsoever.

 

If you get lost in emptiness, buddha's all-knowing aspect cannot come forth. If you get lost in clarity, then, because of not having emptiness, you cannot produce the antidote to ego-grasping. As a result of going astray in one of these ways, the complaint is heard these days, "Oh, I've meditated for twenty years, but I'm still the same!" People who have this complaint do not have the factor of liberation because having the factor of liberation means having emptiness and clarity unified.

 

When you get caught on the side of emptiness by emptiness or when you get caught on the side of clarity by clarity, there is no emptiness and clarity unified, is there? When you do not have clarity occurring within emptiness and emptiness occurring within clarity, the liberation aspect is not occurring and all those problems will arise.

 

Therefore, everyone has to look right at the first instant. There is a method to do this. As you sit there like that, various discursive thoughts arise—boom, boom, boom, boom—don't they? Turn and look at their essence: not having a fixed essence, they are liberated. Discursive thoughts naturally self-destruct. As they dissolve, you must develop the ability to rest in equi-poise right there.

 

 

 

Wouldn't Zen's no mind be the same as being stuck in emptiness?

Edited January 3, 2016 by Tibetan_Ice

[Wells]

.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[9th]

 

A lot is spoken about the influence of Buddhism on Daoist schools (like Complete Reality) but not much about the impact of Daoism on Buddhism.

 

This is very true but I think the main problems here are that such influences were fairly well established before the Pali Canon itself was written down.  We know the texts were already codified to some extent in terms of an oral tradition for a few hundred years before the first written examples, recently discovered .  And this version of the text comes from the Dharmaguptaka sect, who are attributed to the Silk Road geographically, which is also known to be the information superhighway of the ancient world and the cause for the initial spread of buddhism in general.  (It could even be argued that the influence of the greeks in terms of Ghandaran buddhism were instrumental in the genesis of the original ideas of vajrayana - particularly the ideas surrounding Heracles and Zeus, the path of the "hero", and the Orphic ideas of the underworld.  It is already widely known that the creation of Buddha statues were derived specifically from the greek sculptors during this period.).

 

It seems clear that the ranks of this sect almost certainly included taoist hermits and alchemists, due to the terminology used in the texts, in terms of comparisons and metaphors and poetic devices and so forth, as well as basic taoist principals re-examined in a buddhist light.

 

This may indicate that the interweaving of taoist ideas and principals into the structure of institutionalized buddhism was perhaps foundational to the creation of such institutionalization in the first place, and therefore effectively dissolved and merged into it completely from our modern perspective - a perspective which lacks the context which these ancient peoples were dealing with.

 

In terms of Zen, as in the Japanese expression of Chan (meaning, after it was imported and well established), there was also an effort to revitalize and reclaim some of these early taoist influences as a response to the overly intellectualized and dry philosophy of later institutionalized buddhism.  In particular, I would refer to the story of Hakuin Ekaku's "zen sickness" which he developed from intense buddhist practice, was only able to be cured by practices obtained from a "taoist sage" - which he incorporated into his meditations and teachings for the rest of his life.  He placed great importance on this event, and I feel it was his respected nod to and acknowledgement of taoism in terms of "true" buddhism, which he would often compare with the "false" buddhism of his era... usually in a highly scathing manner.  

 

Hakuin is the author of the famous "what is the sound of one hand clapping" koan.  He was a great proponent of the Blue Cliff Record collection, which is also seemingly a revitalization of taoist ideas and principals in the context of Chan buddhism.  It could even be said that the koan itself was a return to the "governmental" approach of applied taoist philosophy as in the Tao Te Ching.

 

The Japanese term kōan is the Sino-Japanese reading of the Chinese word gong'an (Chinese: 公案; pinyin: gōng'àn; Wade–Giles: kung-an; literally: "public case"). The term is a compound word, consisting of the characters 公 "public; official; governmental; common; collective; fair; equitable" and 案 "table; desk; (law) case; record; file; plan; proposal."

 

According to the Yuan Dynasty Zen master Zhongfeng Mingben (中峰明本 1263–1323), gōng'àn originated as an abbreviation of gōngfǔ zhī àndú (公府之案牘, Japanese kōfu no antoku—literally the andu "official correspondence; documents; files" of a gongfu "government post"), which referred to a "public record" or the "case records of a public law court" in Tang-dynasty China.^{[1][2][note 1]}

 

Kōan/gong'an thus serves as a metaphor for principles of reality beyond the private opinion of one person, and a teacher may test the student's ability to recognize and understand that principle.

 

Commentaries in kōan collections bear some similarity to judicial decisions that cite and sometimes modify precedents. An article by T. Griffith Foulk claims

...Its literal meaning is the 'table' or 'bench' 

an

 of a 'magistrate' or 'judge' 

kung

.

[4]

 

Gong'an was itself originally a metaphor—an article of furniture that came to denote legal precedents. For example, Di Gong'an (狄公案) is the original title of Celebrated Cases of Judge Dee, the famous Chinese detective novel based on a historical Tang dynasty judge. Similarly, Zen kōan collections are public records of the notable sayings and actions of Zen disciples and masters attempting to pass on their teachings.

[Apech]

There is certainly a misunderstanding that "no thought" is something to be striven for in Dzogchen.

However, the goal is not "no thought" but recognizing the rigpa which encompasses all.

 

From Ground, Path and Fruition:

 

Wouldn't Zen's no mind be the same as being stuck in emptiness?

 

 

Actually I think this is an error that Zen is prone to rather than being an exact equation.  

[Wells]

.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[9th]

I am not aware of the Rainbow Body attainment in Zen.

 

And where is a reference to the Rainbow Body in "Tantra", specifically?

[Apech]

I am not aware of the Rainbow Body attainment in Zen.

 

 

forgive my ignorance - what is the relevance of Rainbow Body to no-mind in Zen being stuck in emptiness?

[Wells]

.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[Apech]

How high must be the spiritual attainment that even your material body is enlightened as the result of it?

 

 

That I think is a completely different point.  But I suspect you share the focus on Rainbow Body that other's have demonstrated.

[9th]

[Wells]

.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[C T]

I have never heard of any Dzogchen master encouraging practitioners to 'concentrate' on emptiness. 

 

Doing so yields nothing of substance because emptiness is not a state of anything, yet it is the underlying ground of everything, so its not really a matter of needing to make it become more tangible thru practice in the sense that one does not gradually become emptier as progress is made with practice. Its entirely not like that at all. 

 

Being shown the nature of mind by the guru does not mean that one walks away knowing emptiness. Moreover, Tibetan teachers combine the focus of both the cultivation of compassion and wisdom, in equal doses, to guide one's path so as to yield the correct fruit.

 

Understanding what Emptiness is (within the Buddhist context) is like having a chair to sit on in class rather than having to endure prolonged standing while the teacher is teaching, is all. 

[Wells]

.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[Apech]

Are you practicing Zen?

Does Zen only focus on emptiness in mind (no-mind) or also on emptiness in the other 5 senses ("no-sense")?

This is not a trick-question.

 

One thing I give you is that the usage of the word "self-awareness" to describe the Natural State, what some Dzogchen Gurus do, might be easily misunderstood.

Rigpa has nothing to do with what we understand under "self-awareness".

Trying to create "self-awareness" will likely create "I-awareness" instead,

so concentration solely on "emptiness" might be a more secure path.

 

 

No I am not practicing Zen.  I 'practice' mahamudra (also a little of Sakya teachings Lamdre) but mostly and principally Karma Kagyu.

 

Self awareness is not a term I have heard used in the context of meditation - except perhaps in a casual sort of sense but certainly not as a goal as of course the whole point of emptiness is the absence of self in all phenomena.

 

The focus is on the union of emptiness and luminosity/appearance.

[Apech]

A typical guru, who is a scholar and not an accomplished practitioner with the spiritual power to influence your mind directly,

can't show you the nature of your mind.

He can give you the instruction to lead you into the correct direction.

If the student is able to understand, to follow and to use the instructions to perceive the nature of his mind,

depends on the level of faculty of the student.

 

 

 

The cultivation of compassion is not necessary in Dzogchen, as it is in potential in the Natural State.

 

 

Ultimate bodhicitta = emptiness

Relative bodhicitta = compassion.

 

Funnily enough your last point is exactly the same point made by Ch'an teachers when arguing against the gradualist path - which is one of the reasons I mentioned Zen several post above.

[doc benway]

The cultivation of compassion is not necessary in Dzogchen, as it is in potential in the Natural State.

 

This is inaccurate.

 

Compassion is certainly a manifestation of the natural state and when we successfully rest in the natural state with stability, it and other enlightened qualities will begin to spontaneously manifest in our lives.

 

The reason we cultivate compassion, along with practicing the other preliminaries in dzogchen, is to enhance the likelihood of success in our practice and to enrich our relative lives. Someone who comes to dzogchen practice without first preparing and purifying themselves are unlike to get far in their practice, even more so without skillful and direct instruction.

[Wells]

.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[doc benway]

If you believe, that compassion possibly manifesting spontaneously out of the Natural State

equates compassion cultivated on purpose by mind,

then I am not able to agree with you.

That is not what I said. 

 

Cultivating compassion is an aid on the path to realizing the natural state. Spontaneously arising  compassion is a manifestation of success on that path. 

[Apech]

If compassion arises from the natural state then why would you not be compassionate?

[C T]

Without compassion, there is no entry into Dzogchen, let alone progress. 

 

Compassion is the 'sword', the only one in fact, that can cut the chains of samsara. 

 

Read up on the Four Immeasurables. Plenty of material on this, and how it forms the basis for the practice of Dzogchen. Especially good are the writings of Jigme

Lingpa. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jigme_Lingpa

 

This is what Jigme Lingpa wrote:

 

Compassion is a powerful state of mind,
An inability to tolerate the fact that others suffer.
Beings in the six realms are entrapped by sorrow and its cause,
And seeing this brings tears to one’s eyes.

 

Joy is to delight in other’s pleasure and success;
It is to cultivate the wish that all have happiness.
It is a joy one feels when they achieve it for themselves
And is the wish that they should never be deprived of it.

 

Impartiality is freedom from attachment and hostility,
When sides and factions are all seen as equal,
When enemy and friend and neither –
Are all treated with an evenhanded kindness.
We should practice these four attitudes, remembering
That all is without true existence.

 

 

If anyone presumes the impotency of the cultivation of compassion within the scope of Dzogchen, its a mistake, and one hard to rectify because only a cold heart will disregard the exhortations made by all the authentic and kind masters. 

 

However, never be under the mistaken impression that Compassion is all about softness. It can sometimes be very very hard too, but when the teacher is skillful, the hardness will yield the right fruit, which is lasting liberation. 

Edited January 4, 2016 by C T

[Jonesboy]

I always felt that compassion as taught was used to open the heart chakra.

 

The heart chakra being the chakra that is needed to perceive/feel energy.

[Aetherous]

I always felt that compassion as taught was used to open the heart chakra.

 

The heart chakra being the chakra that is needed to perceive/feel energy.

 

Coincides with the OP.

[C T]

 

The heart chakra being the chakra that is needed to perceive/feel energy.

This is only a tiny aspect of Dzogchen, Jonesboy. 

 

For those who ardently devote themselves to the authentic path, the clearance of chakras are seen as secondary in the sense that they will clear effortlessly.