ralis Posted January 6, 2016 (edited) Perhaps that's so...but it all hinges on whether the instructions are actually understood. Thinking you get it, and actually getting it, can be far apart. There is the written dharma, what's in books, what people say, etc...and the revelatory dharma. Without revelation, the mind can't truly grasp the written or even spoken dharma. What is Buddhism without any sort of realization? Just a big heap of useless words. The whole point is realization. Understanding the teaching depends on realizing what it's truly about...on personal experience of the essence of the teachings. It's just like that chocolate metaphor I used earlier. A person who hasn't tasted chocolate yet can hear all sorts of explanations about what it's like. They might be very accurate. But once they taste it, their understanding of what chocolate is prior vs after tasting, are night and day. So what brings revelation and realization and personal experience? Reading accurate instructions does not. Practicing those instructions might, if we understood them in the first place (which we didn't, because we didn't have the dharma of realization). Consider that the Uttaratantra Shastra says that the dharma is "inconceivable" and "unfathomable". What does that mean? You think you might understand the instructions on dzogchen, written by a realized master...but do you really, if these are the two of the qualities of the dharma? That book was written by someone who was taught by Maitreya, the future Buddha...they are apparently the teachings of that future Buddha. What does logical thinking make of the fact that teachings were given by a Buddha that doesn't exist yet? Are there realized masters who claim that the Uttaratantra Shastra is just made up and phony? You can only understand any of this stuff through the dharma of realization. How does that work? You need blessings. How to get blessings? Preliminaries work for it. How to get preliminaries? A teacher. A teacher/guru can also give empowerments for the practices. And by listening to them, there is always some form of transmission...even if it's merely the transmission of what they're saying. It will be more accurate in meaning when you listen to them, versus if you read what they said after the fact...the mind will grasp what was truly being pointed at. Books are great as a secondary source of learning, and they do unravel their secrets over time, especially with personal revelations. It's half true that it's about subservience...but not in the negative abuse of authority sense. It's actually about having the right kind of heart, which brings blessings that help us understand the teachings. You haven't heard of "blessings" in the Buddhist context before? "Rainbow Painting" is a good book to read, and has the word blessings in it 5 times. For someone who likes no authority above them, it can be considered as the blessings of the three jewels. But is it true that bodhisattvas don't help us at all? If someone is helping us when we request it, are we subservient to them, and are they abusing their authority? Or is it a good thing to be helped in ways that we can't grasp, so that we can begin to fathom the teachings? I doubt you were even born when I took my first teachings way back in 1987. Given that and around seventy transmissions I have received, been on any number of retreats, including several personal retreats in Death Valley California and a retreat in the Jemez mountains here in New Mexico both of which lasted several weeks. In addition I started Vipassana back in 1983 as well as read Trungpa's first book Shamballah then. If some invisible Bodhisattva is assisting me, I would like to know about it. It would be nice if I were asked first. I have probably seen most Buddhist books that were published and read many. Edited January 6, 2016 by ralis 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gatito Posted January 6, 2016 I would be interested why you are so grandiose to assume to be able to estimate this. Well I guess that you're just going to have to live with your unassuaged curiosity. You must have bad karma which determines your way. I've noticed that it's interesting what people say that they see when they come into contact with mirrors. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aetherous Posted January 6, 2016 I doubt you were even born when I took my first teachings way back in 1987. Well, I was born in 85, not that it matters... Given that and around seventy transmissions I have received, been on any number of retreats, including several personal retreats in Death Valley California and a retreat in the Jemez mountains here in New Mexico both of which lasted several weeks. What can I say...it's great that you have so much experience. If some invisible Bodhisattva is assisting me, I would like to know about it. It would be nice if I were asked first. Perhaps they haven't been. I don't think they would mess around with you in any way if you were opposed to the idea. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wells Posted January 6, 2016 (edited) . Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gatito Posted January 6, 2016 My question was a rethorical one. I know. Why should you mirror me? Why should I not? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wells Posted January 6, 2016 (edited) . Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gatito Posted January 6, 2016 I was just quoting the guy standing in front of the mirror. Were you? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wells Posted January 6, 2016 (edited) . Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gatito Posted January 6, 2016 I see your disbelief as a compliment. That must be nice for you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wells Posted January 6, 2016 (edited) . Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Brian Posted January 6, 2016 1381 ... the Pedants Revolt.That's Pedants' Revolt... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ralis Posted January 6, 2016 They might have greatly misinterpreted the teachings on the precious human body. I think the purpose of those teachings is just to say that the person is capable of learning because they have the senses. If a person had no sensory perception at all, they wouldn't be capable, so then it's not a 'precious' situation. But if you're still capable of learning in some fashion, then you're fine. Not that I'm an expert by far... The human body is not the top of the evolutionary chain in the universe. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ralis Posted January 6, 2016 Perhaps they haven't been. I don't think they would mess around with you in any way if you were opposed to the idea. If those dudes want to hang out with me and have reasonable discussions that is fine with me. However, that has nothing to do with faith or such, but a relationship between peers. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aetherous Posted January 6, 2016 The human body is not the top of the evolutionary chain in the universe. I wasn't referring to that kind of discussion, only this aspect of Tibetan Buddhist teaching. The commentary in that link seems to support the view that the 5 senses are primarily for the purpose of being able to have exposure to the teachings...not for disqualifying capable people. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted January 6, 2016 That's Pedants' Revolt... That's the Pedants' Revolt ... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted January 6, 2016 The human body is not the top of the evolutionary chain in the universe. I know it's dangerous to point this out, as it might prompt another spin off conversation, but the idea of the precious human birth does not put humans at the top of an evolutionary chain. It puts us in the middle between gods and demi-gods and animals. Which was the common view in ancient India. Just as a side note as well even Darwinian Evolutionary Theory does not put us top of anything - though you could argue we are the most successful of one branch of primates. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Brian Posted January 6, 2016 That's the Pedants' Revolt ... That's The Pedants' Revolt. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gatito Posted January 6, 2016 (edited) That's the Pedants' Revolt ... Brains doesn't get it either, which is even funnier... If you want to explain it to him, it's cool by me. I certainly didn't (and will not) take offence because you hit the nail on the head and it really made me laugh (a lot). Still smiling now - thanks! Edited January 6, 2016 by gatito Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted January 6, 2016 Brains doesn't get it either, which is even funnier... If you want to explain it to him, it's cool by me. I certainly didn't (and will not) take offence because you hit the nail on the head and it really made me laugh (a lot). Still smiling now - thanks! What more can one do than spread laughter and smiles where ever you go? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kar3n Posted January 6, 2016 My knowledge of on the specifics of Dzogchen and Tantra are very limited. Is Dzgochen superior to Tantra? Really, I have not the slightest inclination to find out at this time. I can tell you what I do know and have realized through meditation and residing in ripga on more than one occasion. Without bodhicitta and sunyata rigpa is not possible. Without realizing that you, me, and a Buddha are all one (the insect is questionable ), as part of a non-dualistic nature, rigpa is not possible. Rigpa is just being, being without obstruction or attachment to anything and residing in the light of the true nature of oneself. Rigpa is freedom from the limits of the conscious mind. Be kind to one another. A little bodhicitta goes a long way... Much Love to you all. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ralis Posted January 6, 2016 My knowledge of on the specifics of Dzogchen and Tantra are very limited. Is Dzgochen superior to Tantra? Really, I have not the slightest inclination to find out at this time. I can tell you what I do know and have realized through meditation and residing in ripga on more than one occasion. Without bodhicitta and sunyata rigpa is not possible. Without realizing that you, me, and a Buddha are all one (the insect is questionable ), as part of a non-dualistic nature, rigpa is not possible. Rigpa is just being, being without obstruction or attachment to anything and residing in the light of the true nature of oneself. Rigpa is freedom from the limits of the conscious mind. Be kind to one another. A little bodhicitta goes a long way... Much Love to you all. I disagree that we are all one. Why? Non separate being does not imply one big lump of chummy togetherness, but individuality in the system. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wells Posted January 6, 2016 (edited) . Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ralis Posted January 6, 2016 Is it you Zoom ? He changed his name well before you became a member here. Have you been here under another name? 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wells Posted January 6, 2016 (edited) . Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
