Dzogchen, superior to Tantra. Really...?

[ralis]

Who?

 

Jonesboy must have been thrown off the Dharmawheel site and can only quote Malcolmisms. They seem to land here for whatever reason.

[Wells]

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Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[Jonesboy]

I use a respected guy to show that neither one of you know what you are talking about.

 

I have only quoted him twice ever and both times in this thread.

 

Did you notice he mentioned Mahamudra and Dzogchen?

[ralis]

If this strays too much then just ignore it...

 

But what is the text without transmission?

 

I don't know much about Dzogchen but thought that was part-and-parcel.

 

When I consider the ancient daoists, it seems they always encountered some master which put them past the line they could not cross... no amount of text would do that.

 

I'm not trying to make an argument against texts... I value that as much as another... but transmission is singularly the most direct path anyways.  So why argue it out of an equation?

 

Dzogchen has been transmitted from ancient shamanism in which the natural world was the teacher. Although, some claim it has been transmitted from another realm via Garab Dorje and Samantabhadra, the primordial deity.

[Wells]

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Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[Apech]

I studied this particular text years ago and found it to be very useful. John Myrdhin Reynolds translated this particular text which is a stand alone transmission text, whereby one can read and receive the Dzogchen teachings. Reynolds at that time was a translator for Norbu. Also Norbu specifically stated that the natural state teachings are non sectarian/ecumenical and that includes the natural world being a realm where one can receive Dzogchen transmission.

 

One other point that Norbu was always adamant about regarding the Ngondro preliminaries is that many gurus require the accomplishment of such before receiving higher teachings such as Dzogchen and so forth. If someone passes on without receiving the Dzogchen teachings what good is doing myriad prostrations and the other preliminaries? 

 

There are way too many fundamentalists that never question or apply critical analysis to these teachings. Moreover, Tibet was ruled for over 800 years by monastic, feudalistic, overlords. That is a fact!

 

 

 

http://www.amazon.com/Self-Liberation-through-Seeing-Naked-Awareness-ebook/dp/B0062ZBHIQ/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1452555027&sr=1-3&keywords=john+myrdhin+reynolds

 

 

The point I was trying to make which is usually overlooked is that the ngondro are not stepping stones to higher teachings - they are higher teachings and you do mahamudra meditation from the beginning.  This is in line with the concept of the basis, path and fruit.  In non-dual systems the basis or cause , the path itself and the result are all in the natural state.

 

You are right about Tibet.  I have just read van Shaik's book on this and the history of Tibet far from being a peaceful shangrila of smiling Buddhists is constant tribal war, political intrigue and other forms of unpleasantness.  The monasteries were largely about power and land ownership and the ordinary people were kept in peasant poverty.  In fact most actual practitioners were either lay yogis or left the monasteries to live in either caves or camped settlements.  There's nothing special about Tibet except they kept and preserved the Buddhist vajrayana from old India which otherwise would have been lost.

[C T]

In what way is it funny?

Despite all the proclaimed exposure you claim to have received, you are yet able to distinguish the inseparability of the preliminaries with the main body of Dzogchen practice as a whole. Thats what i found a little amusing. 

[ralis]

I use a respected guy to show that neither one of you know what you are talking about.

 

I have only quoted him twice ever and both times in this thread.

 

Did you notice he mentioned Mahamudra and Dzogchen?

 

I don't know what I am talking about? That is your opinion which is an error in judgement. Further, I don't know Malcolm and whether he is respected or not is irrelevant. Respect is earned and not given on a random basis.

[ralis]

Despite all the proclaimed exposure you claim to have received, you are yet able to distinguish the inseparability of the preliminaries with the main body of Dzogchen practice as a whole. Thats what i found a little amusing. 

 

I trust Norbu in regards to the preliminaries and that is my decision and business.

[Apech]

I vote for a Malcolm free zone.  If you have something to say then say it in your own words.  

[Wells]

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Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[Tibetan_Ice]

Malcolm thinks that a magnetic pressure between the eyebrows is a sickness that needs to be cured.

[Apech]

I trust Norbu in regards to the preliminaries and that is my decision and business.

 

 

I don't think anyone on here is in a position to authoritatively tell anyone else what is correct and what is not.  I just speak from my own experience and my own practice and what has worked, and is working for me.  I do this in the spirit of free exchange and fundamentally I don't care about what other people do at all, though I like to listen to as much opinion as I can so I can check my own knowledge.

[Wells]

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Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[ralis]

Malcolm thinks that a magnetic pressure between the eyebrows is a sickness that needs to be cured.

 

By frontal lobotomy?

[dawei]

What do you understand under "transmission"?

 

I think our ideas of transmission differ... I likely don't really know what Dzogchen transmission, which I have read here in other threads, is about.

 

Dzogchen has been transmitted from ancient shamanism in which the natural world was the teacher. Although, some claim it has been transmitted from another realm via Garab Dorje and Samantabhadra, the primordial deity.

 

My idea of transmission is more like drawing the curtain back to reveal it all...  so I think I just have a different point of view.

 

But thanks for sharing this. While I'm not sure I understand what you said I do like reading these threads.

[Wells]

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Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[Jonesboy]

I trust Norbu in regards to the preliminaries and that is my decision and business.

It would be nice if you would actually quote him instead of telling us he told you so and so back in 1987.

 

A big difference if you know what I mean.

[ralis]

As far as I remember, his suggested medical treatment indeed included needles!

 

 

I was thinking more along the line of these tools.

 

[Wells]

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Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[Wells]

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Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[Kar3n]

Seems that everything I have read and been taught says the natural state without bodhicitta is not possible. I am not seeing a lot of that here. Seems more like a prepubescent flame war.

 

Do you not have the maturity spiritually or mentally to agree to disagree, walk away and do some research or perhaps look inward?

 

Think about it...

[ralis]

It would be nice if you would actually quote him instead of telling us he told you so and so back in 1987.

 

A big difference if you know what I mean.

 

I was 1989 and a week long retreat. I remember it very well and I am telling it in my own words which is the preferred methodology on this forum.

[C T]

I trust Norbu in regards to the preliminaries and that is my decision and business.

The question likely to impress upon reading this, is, does Master Norbu share the same sentiment? 

[Jonesboy]

I was 1989 and a week long retreat. I remember it very well and I am telling it in my own words which is the preferred methodology on this forum.

I believe this forum prefers experience backed up by accepted teachings from books.

 

It helps to prove your not just making things up and that you know what you are talking about.

 

Especially when you are telling people they are wrong all the time.

 

Norbu is a prolific writer after all.

Edited January 12, 2016 by Jonesboy