Dzogchen, superior to Tantra. Really...?

[C T]

I was 1989 and a week long retreat. I remember it very well and I am telling it in my own words which is the preferred methodology on this forum.

Bolded for emphasis.

[dawei]

As already pointed out, many of the Dzogchen gurus are rather scholars than advanced practitioners,

so they are not able to do such a kind of "transmission".

The advanced Dzogchen practitioners have rather left the monasteries at some point and are advanced because they train 24/7 in solitude in some montain hut.

 

thank you... I didn't read 33 pages to see what was already pointed out... or I didn't put that together 

 

I find that is true of most Daoist translators.... so that makes sense

[ralis]

Seems that everything I have read and been taught says the natural state without bodhicitta is not possible. I am not seeing a lot of that here. Seems more like a prepubescent flame war.

 

Do you not have the maturity spiritually or mentally to agree to disagree, walk away and do some research or perhaps look inward?

 

Think about it...

 

Bodhicitta is just another feel good trap in my opinion. The universe is 13.82 billion years old and is constantly evolving life ad infinitum. If one wants to take a vow to liberate all beings, that will never happen. To be quite honest, the authoritarian monasteries in Tibet didn't give a damn about poor uneducated peasants and didn't lift a finger to advance the education cure the problem of poverty for their people. That includes the lineage of Dalai Lama's.

[ralis]

The question likely to impress upon reading this, is, does Master Norbu share the same sentiment? 

 

I repeated in other posts what he has stated regarding this matter.

[dawei]

Seems that everything I have read and been taught says the natural state without bodhicitta is not possible. 

 

For the uninformed, like myself... can you explain this more?

 

 

Edit: I just saw Ralis posts... and welcome anyone to comment or explain it more.

[ralis]

I believe this forum prefers experience backed up by accepted teachings from books.

 

It helps to prove your not just making things up and that you know what you are talking about.

 

Especially when you are telling people they are wrong all the time.

 

Norbu is a prolific writer after all.

 

I have done personal retreats in mountains and wilderness areas with no one around for 100 miles. Perhaps 1 million mantras for Vijayanagar practices and so forth. That was years ago. This winter I will be in the Mojave desert and practicing much sky gazing among other practices. The real trick is to sky gaze indoors which I am doing now.

Edited January 12, 2016 by ralis

[C T]

Bodhicitta is just another feel good trap in my opinion. The universe is 13.82 billion years old and is constantly evolving life ad infinitum. If one wants to take a vow to liberate all beings, that will never happen. To be quite honest, the authoritarian monasteries in Tibet didn't give a damn about poor uneducated peasants and didn't lift a finger to advance the education cure the problem of poverty for their people. That includes the lineage of Dalai Lama's.

Make up your mind what you would like to discuss - if its the historical politicking of old Tibet, then start a different thread please

[dawei]

I believe this forum prefers experience backed up by accepted teachings from books.

 

 

I have done personal retreats in mountains and wilderness areas with no one around for 100 miles. Perhaps 1 million mantras for Vijayanagar practices and so forth. That was years ago. This winter I will be in the Mojave desert and practicing much sky gazing among other practices. The real trick is to sky gaze indoors which I am doing now.

 

 

To be fair to the forum... I think it prefers individual experiences shared with others.    

 

And there is a valid place for books and teaching. 

[ralis]

Make up your mind what you would like to discuss - if its the historical politicking of old Tibet, then start a different thread please

 

Bodhicitta was brought up and that was a relevant response. If the monastics are teaching compassion and so forth, then behave as such or else be labeled a hypocrite.

[Wells]

.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[ralis]

To be fair to the forum... I think it prefers individual experiences shared with others.    

 

And there is a valid place for books and teaching. 

 

I have read many books and participated in myriad teachings.

[C T]

I repeated in other posts what he has stated regarding this matter.

What i meant to say, but was afraid of coming across as rude, is that you were probably never told that Chogyal Namkhai Norbu discovered a terma and initiated a practice called the Ati Lamgyi Ngondro. Your lack of information is quite telling. 

[Jonesboy]

To be fair to the forum... I think it prefers individual experiences shared with others.

 

And there is a valid place for books and teaching.

Just saying that I have had to quote my butt off after sharing my experiences here in this forum.

 

Even within this thread

 

Must be a selective thing.

 

.

Edited January 12, 2016 by Jonesboy

[Kar3n]

Bodhicitta is just another feel good trap in my opinion. The universe is 13.82 billion years old and is constantly evolving life ad infinitum. If one wants to take a vow to liberate all beings, that will never happen. To be quite honest, the authoritarian monasteries in Tibet didn't give a damn about poor uneducated peasants and didn't lift a finger to advance the education cure the problem of poverty for their people. That includes the lineage of Dalai Lama's.

How is it a trap? Can you expand on this please? Do you not wish wonderful things for others? Are you saying that some portions of Dzogchen teachings are relevant and others are not?

[Wells]

.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[ralis]

What i meant to say, but was afraid of coming across as rude, is that you were probably never told that Chogyal Namkhai Norbu discovered a terma and initiated a practice called the Ati Lamgyi Ngondro. Your lack of information is quite telling. 

 

I haven't seen Norbu for years so give me a break.

[ralis]

How is it a trap? Can you expand on this please? Do you not wish wonderful things for others? Are you saying that some portions of Dzogchen teachings are relevant and others are not?

 

Please reread what I wrote.

[Wells]

.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[Jonesboy]

[Kar3n]

For the uninformed, like myself... can you explain this more?

 

Bodhicitta by definition is the wish for enlightenment for the sake of all sentient beings by way of compassion in Buddhism.

 

bodhi -enlightened or awakened 

citta- mind or heart

 

In Dzogchen, it is directly referred to as the awakened mind in the natural state.

 

 

If more discussion on bodhicitta is warranted, then I suggest an alternate thread.

[C T]

I think it's more telling that Norbu was willing to teach profound main practices to a small group of capable people during an intense seminar back then without wasting their time previously with years of useless preliminaries.

 

With the profound outcome of 'capable students who attended intense seminars (whatever that means)' ending up with suspicious attitudes and probably arrogance to boot, which now prevents them from following basic advice and instruction. 

[Wells]

.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[Wells]

.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[forestofclarity]

Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche doesn't follow the same pattern as other teachers with Ngondro. In the Crystal and the Way of Light, p.116-118, he discusses his view in depth. He writes:

 

Garab Dorje didn’t say: ‘First teach the Ngondro’. He said that the first thing to be done was for the master to introduce the disciple directly to the primordial state, so that the student would have a clear experience of it and would then have no doubts as to the fact that the state is the true condition of all phenomenon. Afterwards, he said, the disciple should continue in that state, and if obstacles arose that would make this impossible, he or she would apply the specific practices necessary to overcome these obstacles: if one discovered the lack of a given capacity, one should dedicate oneself to a practice that would allow one to develop it.  

[Jonesboy]

Alright that ends it for me.

 

Take care everyone.

 

All the best,

 

Tom

Edited January 12, 2016 by Jonesboy